Doping in XC skiing

[BullsFan22]

she's a freaking beast, one of the best athletes i ever witnessed.

Yes. One of the most doped as well. Looks like it will be another season where Bjoergen and Kowalczyk will be chasing each other like pac-men with the next skier(s) minutes behind. I can't wait.

 

[PeterB]

How about this?

 

[Granville57]

How about this?

What the...?


Even stranger: I read that the orb "she" is holding actually weighs 100 kilos!

 

[meat puppet]

and still, when all is said and done, johaug frequently kicks her *** on real terrain and over real distances.

o2 > muscle. choose your poison. mine's o2. case in point WC 30k 2011. that might have been an instance of poetic injustice in the grand scheme of things. but it was poetic nonetheless.

 

[Walkman]

Some rumors going around saying that Sundby is logging 1150 hours of training every year. Sounds kind of crazy.

How does that compare with pro cyclists?

 

[meat puppet]

Some rumors going around saying that Sundby is logging 1150 hours of training every year. Sounds kind of crazy.

How does that compare with pro cyclists?

that's ca. 3 hours a day avg. not much at face value. but it's the composition of the hours that counts of course.

cycling pros probably clock in an avg of 5-6hrs if following a volume based regime. 3-4 if intensity based. or am I outta clue here?

 

[python]

you're spot on, meat puppet, re. the average/typical workloads of an elite xc skiers vs a pro pedaling master...that said, the real, well known freak of volume among the xc elite is not sundby but legkov. reto burgemeister is on record saying he had to completely turn around alex's system to incorporate some rest...the same was seconded many times. lego is a fanatic of volume like eki was known to the us postal....

your previous post about the oxygen vs muscle is simplifying a rather complex issue. i dont have the time not desire to delve into it (much was already said), but it's not about muscle vs oxygen, rather, how much muscle to carry to have it use the available oxygen properly in a particular endurance sport...xc skiing - at least in its present expression - on most modern courses favours muscular strength together with aerobic fitness (vo2 max, anaerobic threshold etc). the relative proportion varies with a course profile...the steeper and longer hills (like today in kuusamo) benefit oxygen vs a weighty/bulky muscles that cut down gross efficiency...

 

[Walkman]

Of course it's about the intensity, one hour of skiing is (on average) much harder than one hour of cycling, but still it would be interesting to see how many hours elite cyclists do.

As far as Legkov goes, do you have any numbers? Would be interesting to compare with the likes of Svan and Elofsson. Especially the later was know for his extreme training regime, both with regards to volume and intensity. Still holds the best time up some mountain where skiers goes to test themselves. Must have been 15 years ago and until today, only Hellner has come close.

 

[meat puppet]

Of course it's about the intensity, one hour of skiing is (on average) much harder than one hour of cycling, but still it would be interesting to see how many hours elite cyclists do.

Well, having done both myself on a regular basis, I have to disagree. It depends precisely on how you do it. Sure, I'm an amateur if there ever was one. But just like you can up and down the intensity on the bike, so you can on the skis. 4hr skiing rides aint no thang, if you take it slow, and the same applies to bike rides as well. And of course you can completely decimate yourself in a couple minutes on both.

Python, I know I was simplifying, and I appreciate your thoughtful posts very much. But in a sense it does boil down to what I said. In longer hilly races, there comes a threshold beyond which extra muscle amounts to an anchor; and in sprint races, there comes a threshold after which the lack of muscle leaves you in the dust while the bulkier ones take off.

Of course one gets a better and more concrete picture by adding more layers, etc.

 

[gustienordic]

Some rumors going around saying that Sundby is logging 1150 hours of training every year. Sounds kind of crazy.

How does that compare with pro cyclists?

That doesn't seem that crazy (I mean it is, but not unheard of). Alsgaard was known to put in ridiculous amounts of hours >1200.

At a certain point, the hours training doesn't really make a difference. The crazy volume could be due to addiction; training and putting in hours can become an addiction and next thing you know, all you do is rollerski/run/ski/eat/sleep.

 

[python]

That doesn't seem that crazy (I mean it is, but not unheard of). Alsgaard was known to put in ridiculous amounts of hours >1200.

how much does an elite xc skier train ??

let's check some reliable (particularly academic) sources for the objective facts...keep in mind, i introduced several sources to encompass the changing trends over the years our sport (and the training required) had developed...

Source 1: Endurance in Sport, Chapter 52 (authoured by Ulf Bergh and Artur Forsberg), Table 52.5, Approximate hours of training in Sweden by competitive xc skiers (1990).

Senior man: 650 to 750 hours per year. (for a sanity check , i just looked up my own training data... as a nationally competitive junior, when aged 17 and 18 my diary recorded during the period 500+ h )

Source 2: XC Endurance Training Theory-Norwegian Style, Norwegian men's national team coach Eric Røste (up to late '90s.) currently the president of the norwegian skiing fed.
http://www.sullivanstriders.org/train_endurance_theory.htm

Annual Training Volume in Relation to Age:
...
22 650
25 750
Upper limit (males) approx. 1000

Source 3: charlotte kalla's diary in 2010 (regularly 4 to 5h a day !!! (swedish)
http://www.expressen.se/sport/langdskidor/kallas-grymma-traning---dag-for-dag/

So, yes, sundby's 1150h a year appear at the upper limit. but keep in mind all top athlete are notorious liars when speaking in public (to keep their competive edge). plus they may or may not include the time required for a warm up/cool-down, that the above sources did NOT include...

bottom line, any 'total hours' of training is meanigless when the structure of hi vs low intensity training is secret.

which it usually is...

 

[neineinei]

Reading the 2013 WADA testing figures I noticed IBU in the EPO statistics.

They had 2 in competition adverse analytical findings of EPO and 4 out of competition.

Starykh and Iourieva were caught in competition in December. Was there any other EPO bans in biathlon last year? Or are the 4 OOC AAFs = the positives of Loginov, Starykh and Iourieva reported this week?

https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws...-Testing-Figures-TESTING-AUTHORITY-REPORT.pdf (page 24)

 

[Bavarianrider]

Honestly, i don't really understand why she is putting on that kind of muscles.
Even male sprinters aren't built like that in perspective. Björgen is so much more muscular than the regular female cross country skiier, it's laughable.

There are two questions here. How does she get and stay so muscular while training long endurance every day.
How can she supply all that muscles with enough oxygen.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Reading the 2013 WADA testing figures I noticed IBU in the EPO statistics.

They had 2 in competition adverse analytical findings of EPO and 4 out of competition.

Starykh and Iourieva were caught in competition in December. Was there any other EPO bans in biathlon last year? Or are the 4 OOC AAFs = the positives of Loginov, Starykh and Iourieva reported this week?

https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws...-Testing-Figures-TESTING-AUTHORITY-REPORT.pdf (page 24)

Don't forget Zlatkauskas. His was an OOC + for EPO on Dec.19 2013. His positive was announced the same time as the two Russian girls. His statement was basically along the lines of "yep, you got me. I wanted to qualify for the Olympics, I cheated to do so, don't bother checking the B sample, I'll see you in two years if a comeback is viable."

If the positives reported this week are all counted under these AAFs, then all are present and correct:

in competition: Starykh, Iourieva
out of competition: Starykh, Iourieva, Zlatkauskas, Loginov

 

[neineinei]

Don't forget Zlatkauskas. His was an OOC + for EPO on Dec.19 2013. His positive was announced the same time as the two Russian girls. His statement was basically along the lines of "yep, you got me. I wanted to qualify for the Olympics, I cheated to do so, don't bother checking the B sample, I'll see you in two years if a comeback is viable."

If the positives reported this week are all counted under these AAFs, then all are present and correct:

in competition: Starykh, Iourieva
out of competition: Starykh, Iourieva, Zlatkauskas, Loginov

You are right, I'd forgotten that it was EPO for him too.

 

[BullsFan22]

Today's Lillehammer sprints were pretty freaking hilarious. Norway had 13 women qualify, 6 in the semi and 4 in the final. You know what the final standings were? 1, 2, 3, 4. All Norway. All the time. The men had two podium finishers, and countless others in the semis and quarters. Did they have any drug testers out there today, or was it a free for all??

 

[the sceptic]

do the norwegians not know that this kind of domination is going to kill the sport?

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Today's Lillehammer sprints were pretty freaking hilarious. Norway had 13 women qualify, 6 in the semi and 4 in the final. You know what the final standings were? 1, 2, 3, 4. All Norway. All the time. The men had two podium finishers, and countless others in the semis and quarters. Did they have any drug testers out there today, or was it a free for all??

----------------
Do you follow cross-country skiing ? I do, and the results were no big surprise. But if you want to talk about domination, forget about places 2-4, and look at #1, Bjørgen. She dominated the race almost Muhlegg-style, taking the start both in the semi and final, and just pulling on the front all the way in both races. Admittedly it is a short effort for a long distance skier, with around 3 minutes racetime, but still, that was ridiculous. After pulling all the way, she eased away from the others in the finish.

As the 3 contenders lay on the ground breathing hard, she just made a little turn, smiled, and skied by the audience. Hardly out of breath. She seems thinner than before also, and whatever she is on is working really well for her. I do hope she gets busted, but have very little faith. Posting something like this on a norwegian forum, would get you banned permanently.

 

[the sceptic]

----------------
Do you follow cross-country skiing ? I do, and the results were no big surprise. But if you want to talk about domination, forget about places 2-4, and look at #1, Bjørgen. She dominated the race almost Muhlegg-style, taking the start both in the semi and final, and just pulling on the front all the way in both races. Admittedly it is a short effort for a long distance skier, with around 3 minutes racetime, but still, that was ridiculous. After pulling all the way, she eased away from the others in the finish.

As the 3 contenders lay on the ground breathing hard, she just made a little turn, smiled, and skied by the audience. Hardly out of breath. She seems thinner than before also, and whatever she is on is working really well for her. I do hope she gets busted, but have very little faith. Posting something like this on a norwegian forum, would get you banned permanently.

Yes, Björgen is obvious. Not much to discuss there. She is the Riis/Froome of female XC skiing.

The total domination is not solely due to doping of course. It's obvious that the russians, italians, finns, and germans are not doping like they used to back in the day. I would also guess there is a big recruitment problem in most of these countries. Adding to that Norway has the most money for other marginal gains like waxing and being professional athletes.

The result of all this is kind of ugly though. Does anyone really care about female XC skiing anymore? When was the last time someone other than a norwegian or Kowalchuk won a race?

 

[coinneach]

Yes, Björgen is obvious. Not much to discuss there. She is the Riis/Froome of female XC skiing.

The total domination is not solely due to doping of course. It's obvious that the russians, italians, finns, and germans are not doping like they used to back in the day. I would also guess there is a big recruitment problem in most of these countries. Adding to that Norway has the most money for other marginal gains like waxing and being professional athletes.

The result of all this is kind of ugly though. Does anyone really care about female XC skiing anymore? When was the last time someone other than a norwegian or Kowalchuk won a race?

If you think waxing is a marginal gain, you clearly know NOTHING about XC skiing

 

[peloton]

Yes, Björgen is obvious. Not much to discuss there. She is the Riis/Froome of female XC skiing.

The total domination is not solely due to doping of course.

Dählie, Bjørndalen and Bjørgen. The clean beacons

 

[python]

anyone who followed this thread for a while will easily note that THE SAME pictures of muscle-laden bjoergen are posted and re-posted over and over...

i'm just thinking aloud here... obviously, she is proud of her body.

would she stir less excitement if those massive proteins of her were not thrown in front of cameras if only her chin and cranium were available for 'analysis' ?

regardless, those massive biceps in both genders require massive amounts of testosterone. endogenous or exogenous but it must be there !

if her testo is natural, she would likely have some secondary symptoms or health issues that women in such cases are known to demonstrate.

she is obviously not shaving

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The total domination is not solely due to doping of course. It's obvious that the russians, italians, finns, and germans are not doping like they used to back in the day. I would also guess there is a big recruitment problem in most of these countries. Adding to that Norway has the most money for other marginal gains like waxing and being professional athletes.

The result of all this is kind of ugly though. Does anyone really care about female XC skiing anymore? When was the last time someone other than a norwegian or Kowalchuk won a race?

Kikkan Randall won the sprint at Lahti in March. Before that, the Swedish girls in the relay, thanks exclusively to Charlotte Kalla being awesome.

Regards other countries doping/not doping and recruitment; Russia has plenty of strong men, but lacking somewhat on the women front. This seems to be borne out in biathlon also, with several men who can compete for the podium but precious few women (especially with Zaitseva retiring and Vilukhina out). In XC, only Tchekaleva is able to even occasionally threaten the upper echelons of results. In Germany, XC seems to be the poor relation to biathlon; interest in the latter is far stronger, and the team seems to hæmorrhage young talents to it. Though they are not quick enough as skiers to be competitive as XC skiers at this point in time, it's worth noting that Vanessa Hinz and Franziska Preuß were both XC athletes who picked up the gun in their teens (Hinz only a couple of years ago), while Victoria Carl, perhaps their best young prospect at the junior level in XC, has made noises about going to biathlon as well. A few years ago they padded out the squad by borrowing strong skiing talents from biathlon (Gössner, for example), but with the number of retirements from the biathlon squad and the weak results there at present, there isn't really the chance for that kind of overspill now. The men were reliant on the same aging guys for years and have not replaced them; they seem to be struggling to attract people away from biathlon. Heck, even Nordic Combined is in better shape in Germany, as with Frenzel, Rießle, Rydzek, Lange and Faißt they have a young core of good athletes who are reasonable skiers (especially the former two); not enough to be XC specialists of course, but who might have been able to be had they focused solely on XC from the youth level. Don't really see any NoCo guys who would reasonably be able to perform at XC level, though if Kokslien or Moan weren't Norwegian and were instead, Idunno, Belarusian or something they might be able to make a WC squad. Finland have quite a few young talents but they're still fairly raw, give them some time.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Total Domination !!!

My home country is doing quite well in cross country atm. For anybody outside the sport, does this sound legit: (world cup standings individual after 2 weeks of the season)
Women:1.NOR 2.NOR 3.NOR 4.NOR 6.NOR 9.NOR
Men: 1.NOR 2.NOR 3.NOR 4.NOR 6.NOR 8.NOR 9.NOR

The only question if this continues, is if the national championship will have more prestigue than the world cup.

As a Norwegian I find it hard to believe that all these nice athletes are doping, some of them surely, but all ??? However I'm starting to believe that Norwegian doctors have come up with stuff that works as well as doping, but is somehow legal, or just a little shady )..

 

[the sceptic]

I am glad they don't get the same kind of domination in biathlon, although it's pretty funny how whenever their top woman retires, someone else has a big improvement to fill the gap.