Doping in XC skiing

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Do I recall right that there were news which said Bendiksen only handed over the tube and not the full package to Johaug? Just asking because apparently she has said today that it was actually herself who threw the package and instruction to carpage, thus she did receive the full package (with the famous doping sign) from Bendiktsen.

This whole thing just gets more confusing by the day. The more Johaug, Bendiksen and the NSF try to add to the story, the whereabouts, the testing, the package, the lip sores, the pharmacy, etc...the more it gets confusing. From past doping related stories/issues and subsequent investigations, the more a story gets complicated the less of a chance there is any validity in it. Going down this road might be ok with the Norwegian public and Johaug's teammates/coaches, but I am not sure that WADA, FIS and CAS will agree. Then again, I am not really sure what to believe from any of these organizations anymore. Maybe Johaug IS telling the truth and is trying to get as much sympathy as possible because testing positive for an anabolic steroid will get you serious ban and she's trying to sway the people who control the next 1-4 years of her ski career.

My feeling, like some of you here, is that they are just trying to spin this as much as possible and get as much support as possible from the Norwegian public, and possibly from other foreign skiers. There is a chance that FIS and WADA/CAS will feel more reluctant to ban her. Nobody wants to ban the top skier in the world, right? Particularly not one like Johaug, who is very marketable. I don't want to get into nationalities and preferences, but I have no doubt that had she been a Russian, Finnish, Italian, heck even Swedish, everyone would be calling for her head and for her to be banned for at least 2 years. If it was a Russian, we'd be yelling for her to be banned for life and for the team to be suspended from all racing this season.

 

[Cloxxki]

Re: Re:

Any insights who commissioned the out of competition test, and where the analysis was done? Who decides where analysis is done, the commissioning party? Was this an unexpectedly succesfull FIS ploy to regain credibility in all matters Norge?

If Johaug is now tearing up over how terribly bedridden she wasfrom her sun burnt lips...did she relay that story to her ADA, nation fedation and FIS earlier also, and are those reports nicely aligned? Even if you can conceivve to be so stupid as to miss the doping warnings, would you double down and be so stupid to caugh up a half-assed explanation that is bound to raise more questions?
When their traditional FIS/ADA protection falls away, perhaps their well oiled operation shifts back to outright amateur hour. They've never pleaded any such case.

I'm such a fan of Johaug's skiing, but she's being a bad representative even of liars, let alone Olympians.

You'd have to go back to the earliest posts on this topic (two weeks ago) to find where/what/how on the actual test, but if I remember correctly, it was Anti Doping Norge that tested her. Where the sample(s) went...I am not 100%. I am assuming it went to ADN directly, or to the WADA labs themselves.

Cheers!
If indeed Anti Doping Norge, something went wrong. Either her levels were way high for even them to find it, or somehow her sample got fast tracked to Cologne or something to find minute traces. I can't imagine Anti Doping Norge to have access to the most ambitious labs locally.

Wild theory: Johaug not having her faithful doc there got the dosage all wrong and knew she'd be glowing inthe dark for months. Doc flew over to start the spin the story, as the Anti Doping Norge had already send him the cautionary smoke signals for the test upon their return. And then amateur hour got underway.

If I were a proper ADA, I'd want Johaug's sample, all varieties, midways through the camp and right when coming back. Does Anti Doping Norge even have a vague idea of where her blood levels are supposed to be? They seem to test their local superstar hardly at all.

 

[Blaaswix]

From the NRK interview:

– Jeg fikk kremen og pakken av Fredrik (Bendiksen, landslagslege). Jeg tok med pakken på rommet, åpnet den og kastet bruksanvisningen og pakken, og jeg brukte kremen som jeg fikk anvist av Fredrik. Jeg skulle smøre to tynnelag på leppene morgen og kveld.

I got the creme and the packet from Fredrik (Bendiksen, natinal team doctor). I took the packet to the room, opened it and threw (away) the instructions and the packaging, and I used the creme as directed by Fredrik. I should smear two thin layers on the lips morning and evening.

So, the doctor, and the patient, presented with a medicine not available in Norway, clearly didn't read the instructions as they both missed the doping warning. How did the doctor know how to advise his patient if he hadn't read the instructions?

 

[sida_mot]

Boring press conference.Nothing new at all but a more realistic reaction than the first appearance.

Apparently her prison-orange T-shirt is what most people commented on after it.

 

[Tubeless]

Re: Re:

Any insights who commissioned the out of competition test, and where the analysis was done? Who decides where analysis is done, the commissioning party? Was this an unexpectedly succesfull FIS ploy to regain credibility in all matters Norge?

If Johaug is now tearing up over how terribly bedridden she wasfrom her sun burnt lips...did she relay that story to her ADA, nation fedation and FIS earlier also, and are those reports nicely aligned? Even if you can conceivve to be so stupid as to miss the doping warnings, would you double down and be so stupid to caugh up a half-assed explanation that is bound to raise more questions?
When their traditional FIS/ADA protection falls away, perhaps their well oiled operation shifts back to outright amateur hour. They've never pleaded any such case.

I'm such a fan of Johaug's skiing, but she's being a bad representative even of liars, let alone Olympians.

You'd have to go back to the earliest posts on this topic (two weeks ago) to find where/what/how on the actual test, but if I remember correctly, it was Anti Doping Norge that tested her. Where the sample(s) went...I am not 100%. I am assuming it went to ADN directly, or to the WADA labs themselves.

Cheers!
If indeed Anti Doping Norge, something went wrong. Either her levels were way high for even them to find it, or somehow her sample got fast tracked to Cologne or something to find minute traces. I can't imagine Anti Doping Norge to have access to the most ambitious labs locally.

Wild theory: Johaug not having her faithful doc there got the dosage all wrong and knew she'd be glowing inthe dark for months. Doc flew over to start the spin the story, as the Anti Doping Norge had already send him the cautionary smoke signals for the test upon their return. And then amateur hour got underway.

If I were a proper ADA, I'd want Johaug's sample, all varieties, midways through the camp and right when coming back. Does Anti Doping Norge even have a vague idea of where her blood levels are supposed to be? They seem to test their local superstar hardly at all.

It was ADNO and the test was done in Norway when Johaug returned from Italy. In this article, Johaug's lawyer makes a curious comment:

http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/the...mene-som-endret-norsk-skihistorie/a/23827520/

12 dager etter at Johaug tok for seg tabbe-tuben og startet behandlingen, så blir hun dopingtestet hjemme i Oslo, 16. september. I skjemaet som utøverne må fylle ut, oppgir hun at hun har brukt salven Trofodermin.

– Det var en tilfeldig kontroll, sier advokaten hennes.

Wonder why the lawyer felt the need to emphasize that "it was a random test". All doping tests are supposed to be random - i.e. not announced before. I saw another article where one of the female Norwegian national team skiers seemed to indicate that some tests are random, some pre-announced. I'll try to find a link. But it suggests this may be the practice in Norway - (sometimes) the athletes get a heads up about a upcoming doping check a few weeks in advance?

That would explain the open questions about the Dr's actions.

 

[Discgear]

Just a short look on the Norwegian men XC-team:
Norwegian XC-team men

Finn Hågen Krogh
Astma: Nei. (Asthma: No)
Bruker forstøver: Ja, som et forebyggende tiltak. (Use of Nebulizer: Yes, for preventive purposes)

Eirik Brandsdal
Astma: Nei. (Asthma: No)
Bruker forstøver: Ja. I enkelte tilfeller når jeg får «tilnærmet astmatiske forhold». Saltvann og av og til Atrovent. (Use of Nebulizer: Yes, sometimes when I have asthma-like symptoms. Saltwater and sometimes Atrovent )

Sjur Røthe
Asthma: Nei. (Asthma: No)
Bruker forstøver: Ja. Når jeg har vært syk og hatt såre lunger. (Use of Nebulizer: Yes)

Didrik Tønseth (Asthma: No)
Asthma: Nei.
Bruker forstøver: Ja. I situasjoner hvor det er nødvendig. Før skirenn, før trening, når det er trøbbel med lungene. (Use of Nebulizer: Yes, in situations when it’s necessary. Before competition, in training and when there is problems with the lungs)

Emil Iversen
Astma: Nei. (Asthma: No)
Bruker forstøver: Nei. Jeg har prøvd det én gang. Saltvann. Jeg merket ingenting. (Use of Nebulizer: No, I’ve tried it once. Salt water. I didn’t notice any difference.)

Niklas Dyrhaug
Astma: Ja. (Asthma: Yes)
Bruker forstøver: Nei. Jeg bruker inhalator. Hver gang jeg konkurrerer. (Use of Nebulizer: No, I use inhaler every time I compete)

Martin Johnsrud Sundby
Astma: Ja. (Asthma: No)
Bruker forstøver: Ja. (Use of Nebulizer: Yes)

Ikke snakket med (We haven’t asked the following skiers.: 
Sondre Turvoll Fossli, Martin Løwstrøm Nyenget, Ola Vigen Hattestad, Sindre Bjørnestad Skar, Anders Gløersen, Hans Christer Holund, Petter Northug Jr.

The freshman in the sprint team Sindre Bjørnestad Skar, http://www.budstikka.no/sindre-bjornestad-skar/langrenn/sport/landslagsloper-i-langrenn-har-ikke-opplevd-noe-av-det-som-har-kommet-frem/s/5-55-359401, says following:
I forbindelse med sprint blir lungene veldig såre. Man går alt man kan i tre minutter i 10 minusgrader. Da puster man inn så mye kald luft at den neste halvtimen høres det ut som man har kols. De fleste bruker saltvannsoppløsning og slimoppløsende midler. Det er ikke noe som står på noen lister. Det er som nesespray, men for lungene. Man bruker apparat og det kan forveksles med at alle sitter der med astmamedisin. Hvis 15 løpere sitter med sitter med apparat så er det kanskje tre med astmamedisin, sier 24-åringen.

Translation:
Sprint hurts the lungs. You are going at your max for 3 minutes in 10 below zero. You are breathing so much cold air that the following half hour someone could think you have COPD. Most of us are using salt water and expectorant medication. It’s not forbidden. It is like nose spray, but for the lungs. We are using Nebulizers in away that someone could think that everyone is using asthma medication. If 15 skiers are sitting with Nebulizers, it might be three with asthma medication, says the 24 year old. (A crowded waxing bus )

Atrovent is frequently mentioned by the Norse. The active substance is Ipratropium. It has been on the WADA doping list, but apparently not anymore. There has been some high profile doping cases in horse racing with Ipratropium.

 

[python]

Re:

Just a short look on the Norwegian men XC-team:

Martin Johnsrud Sundby
Astma: Ja. (Asthma: No)
Bruker forstøver: Ja. (Use of Nebulizer: Yes)

obviously, it's a typo

pls fix as follows: Martin Johnsrud Sundby, astma: ja

Bruker forstøver: (ja x ja x ja x ja...)
------
curiously, the disappearance of the dukoff 'spirits'...

waiting for an input void of the 'humanly possible faults, 12 sides, and the humanly expected responses'. aren't we all humans subject to the same rules the norwegian doper apologists see as human only when the hammer felled their heads ?

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Just a short look on the Norwegian men XC-team:
Norwegian XC-team men

Finn Hågen Krogh
Astma: Nei. (Asthma: No)
Bruker forstøver: Ja, som et forebyggende tiltak. (Use of Nebulizer: Yes, for preventive purposes)

Eirik Brandsdal
Astma: Nei. (Asthma: No)
Bruker forstøver: Ja. I enkelte tilfeller når jeg får «tilnærmet astmatiske forhold». Saltvann og av og til Atrovent. (Use of Nebulizer: Yes, sometimes when I have asthma-like symptoms. Saltwater and sometimes Atrovent )

Sjur Røthe
Asthma: Nei. (Asthma: No)
Bruker forstøver: Ja. Når jeg har vært syk og hatt såre lunger. (Use of Nebulizer: Yes)

Didrik Tønseth (Asthma: No)
Asthma: Nei.
Bruker forstøver: Ja. I situasjoner hvor det er nødvendig. Før skirenn, før trening, når det er trøbbel med lungene. (Use of Nebulizer: Yes, in situations when it’s necessary. Before competition, in training and when there is problems with the lungs)

Emil Iversen
Astma: Nei. (Asthma: No)
Bruker forstøver: Nei. Jeg har prøvd det én gang. Saltvann. Jeg merket ingenting. (Use of Nebulizer: No, I’ve tried it once. Salt water. I didn’t notice any difference.)

Niklas Dyrhaug
Astma: Ja. (Asthma: Yes)
Bruker forstøver: Nei. Jeg bruker inhalator. Hver gang jeg konkurrerer. (Use of Nebulizer: No, I use inhaler every time I compete)

Martin Johnsrud Sundby
Astma: Ja. (Asthma: No)
Bruker forstøver: Ja. (Use of Nebulizer: Yes)

Ikke snakket med (We haven’t asked the following skiers.: 
Sondre Turvoll Fossli, Martin Løwstrøm Nyenget, Ola Vigen Hattestad, Sindre Bjørnestad Skar, Anders Gløersen, Hans Christer Holund, Petter Northug Jr.

The freshman in the sprint team Sindre Bjørnestad Skar, http://www.budstikka.no/sindre-bjornestad-skar/langrenn/sport/landslagsloper-i-langrenn-har-ikke-opplevd-noe-av-det-som-har-kommet-frem/s/5-55-359401, says following:
I forbindelse med sprint blir lungene veldig såre. Man går alt man kan i tre minutter i 10 minusgrader. Da puster man inn så mye kald luft at den neste halvtimen høres det ut som man har kols. De fleste bruker saltvannsoppløsning og slimoppløsende midler. Det er ikke noe som står på noen lister. Det er som nesespray, men for lungene. Man bruker apparat og det kan forveksles med at alle sitter der med astmamedisin. Hvis 15 løpere sitter med sitter med apparat så er det kanskje tre med astmamedisin, sier 24-åringen.

Translation:
Sprint hurts the lungs. You are going at your max for 3 minutes in 10 below zero. You are breathing so much cold air that the following half hour someone could think you have COPD. Most of us are using salt water and expectorant medication. It’s not forbidden. It is like nose spray, but for the lungs. We are using Nebulizers in away that someone could think that everyone is using asthma medication. If 15 skiers are sitting with Nebulizers, it might be three with asthma medication, says the 24 year old. (A crowded waxing bus )

Atrovent is frequently mentioned by the Norse. The active substance is Ipratropium. It has been on the WADA doping list, but apparently not anymore. There has been some high profile doping cases in horse racing with Ipratropium.

That's as annoying as anything out of this whole **** show. "Symptoms??" Are you kidding me?? Oh, let me take some EPO before my quarterfinal heat, I didn't have a great prologue and my legs felt a little too heavy. Does that make sense??

 

[python]

Re: Re:

That's as annoying as anything out of this whole **** show. "Symptoms??" Are you kidding me?? Oh, let me take some EPO before my quarterfinal heat, I didn't have a great prologue and my legs felt a little too heavy. Does that make sense??

no. it does not.

while i realize we both belong to the same chorus , the epo use and abuse would follow a much longer time line. much. much much much. even the EPO microdose in between the sprint heats will have a zero effect. has to do with the very long rbc reproduction period. that is, the formation, maturation and the usability of the oxygen delivery units. all takes weeks. even a bb (a blood bag) between the sprint heats would be a detriment. very much the opposite of a well-timed salbutamol treatment. then, everything would be hunky dory b/c it's 'legal'.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

That's as annoying as anything out of this whole **** show. "Symptoms??" Are you kidding me?? Oh, let me take some EPO before my quarterfinal heat, I didn't have a great prologue and my legs felt a little too heavy. Does that make sense??

no. it does not.

while i realize we both belong to the same chorus , the epo use and abuse would follow a much longer time line. much. much much much. even the EPO microdose in between the sprint heats will have a zero effect. has to do with the very long rbc reproduction period. that is, the formation, maturation and the usability of the oxygen delivery units. all takes weeks. even a bb (a blood bag) between the sprint heats would be a detriment. very much the opposite of a well-timed salbutamol treatment. then, everything would be hunky dory b/c it's 'legal'.

I suppose I walked right into that, didn't I? Well, if you'll excuse me, I got a bit too excited/annoyed. Of course EPO micro dosing follows a much longer time line.

What's a good non/asthma medicine that works in the short term, as in, between the prologue and heats and then between qf/sf/f?

 

[Random Direction]

Something that clears lactic acid PDQ.

Simplest scenario for the whole adventure for me is that Johaug was on the steroid, went to Italy for the altitude camp, then the good doctor was tipped off to the anti-doping test upon therese's return to Norway. So knowing she would test positive, he flew down to find the most plausible deniability possible. This happened to be the (non) lip cream.

If this scenario holds, there would be a few phone calls between the NAD and NSF a day or two before the doctors trip down. Easily traceable by public records requests in some countries. The scenario also fits the level of urgency of the visit.

 

[Cloxxki]

Re:

Something that clears lactic acid PDQ.

Simplest scenario for the whole adventure for me is that Johaug was on the steroid, went to Italy for the altitude camp, then the good doctor was tipped off to the anti-doping test upon therese's return to Norway. So knowing she would test positive, he flew down to find the most plausible deniability possible. This happened to be the (non) lip cream.

If this scenario holds, there would be a few phone calls between the NAD and NSF a day or two before the doctors trip down. Easily traceable by public records requests in some countries. The scenario also fits the level of urgency of the visit.

But only after a full ban due to unlikely testimonies to consider life bans and dmaages, right? No phone record checks to see whether she needs a ban.

 

[LeakyBoat]

Re:

Something that clears lactic acid PDQ.

Simplest scenario for the whole adventure for me is that Johaug was on the steroid, went to Italy for the altitude camp, then the good doctor was tipped off to the anti-doping test upon therese's return to Norway. So knowing she would test positive, he flew down to find the most plausible deniability possible. This happened to be the (non) lip cream.

If this scenario holds, there would be a few phone calls between the NAD and NSF a day or two before the doctors trip down. Easily traceable by public records requests in some countries. The scenario also fits the level of urgency of the visit.

I think they didn't expect her to fail, she got caught by a tougher test. The lip-cream was insurance they expected not to need. When the fail came they were faced with using the insurance but they hadn't thought through how it would work.

 

[Cloxxki]

Re: Re:

Something that clears lactic acid PDQ.

Simplest scenario for the whole adventure for me is that Johaug was on the steroid, went to Italy for the altitude camp, then the good doctor was tipped off to the anti-doping test upon therese's return to Norway. So knowing she would test positive, he flew down to find the most plausible deniability possible. This happened to be the (non) lip cream.

If this scenario holds, there would be a few phone calls between the NAD and NSF a day or two before the doctors trip down. Easily traceable by public records requests in some countries. The scenario also fits the level of urgency of the visit.

I think they didn't expect her to fail, she got caught by a tougher test. The lip-cream was insurance they expected not to need. When the fail came they were faced with using the insurance but they hadn't thought through how it would work.

That seems the most plausible thing. Years and year of buying back-up medicine everywhere, and never ever caught.
I still wonder whether they overdid the dosage, or got caught out by a more sensitive test. Did it evven catch out ADNO, or did they take a chance by sending it to a place such as Cologne to gain back some leverage on the ski fed? We're not your lap dog anymore! It may even have been an unauthorized change of protocol by a lower employee. Rather than leaking, sending it to Cologne and ordering a full-over.

 

[python]

a very interesting idea came to me this morning b/c i did not see it entertained ANYWHERE.

what if the good doc confused one of the available versions of trofodermin ('the indian version') with the one johaug would normally (allegedly) use (terra-cortril ) and allgedly not available in that pharmacy? iow, the doc may have thought he is buying an equivalent to terra-cortril in terms of active ingredients and the mechanism of action... ? but actually bought the 'italian/brazilian' trofodermin with clostebol. this could explain why he would NOT look at the package, but may also weaken the coverup if the cream was one (see below)...

sure enough. while not a medic, my chemistry background was enough to confirm the hypothesis..

both terra-cortril) and the 'indian' trofodermin contain similar (in terms of mechanism of action) active ingredients. both are essentially designed as a mixture of a broad spectrum antibiotic and an anti-inflammatory. neither contains an anabolic steroid. (not to overload anyone, i will elaborate on the chemistry should there arise an interest)

so, now the million-norwegian-krona question is - why dr. bendiksen NOT used this easy explanation of his 'mistake' at a pressconference ' i was out to buy yellow apples but had to settle on the green ones for the lack of yellow...after all, apples are apples'

are they ? or we are talking about oranges ?

 

[python]

..more bad news for the official story.

a swedish medic, formerly a national team handball doctor, can not fathom that bendiksen could screw up on such a scale. simply, as he put it, incomprehensible..
http://www.tv2.no/sport/8690527/

also, some point out that therese and fredrik had a week and stayed in a regular contact to coordinate and harmonize their individual versions into an official story.
http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/johaug-tatt-i-doping/johaug-og-lege-avhoert-etter-syv-dager-helt-klart-uheldig/a/23832290/

 

[Tubeless]

Re:

a very interesting idea came to me this morning b/c i did not see it entertained ANYWHERE.

what if the good doc confused one of the available versions of trofodermin ('the indian version') with the one johaug would normally (allegedly) use (terra-cortril ) and allgedly not available in that pharmacy? iow, the doc may have thought he is buying an equivalent to terra-cortril in terms of active ingredients and the mechanism of action... ? but actually bought the 'italian/brazilian' trofodermin with clostebol. this could explain why he would NOT look at the package, but may also weaken the coverup if the cream was one (see below)...

sure enough. while not a medic, my chemistry background was enough to confirm the hypothesis..

both terra-cortril) and the 'indian' trofodermin contain similar (in terms of mechanism of action) active ingredients. both are essentially designed as a mixture of a broad spectrum antibiotic and an anti-inflammatory. neither contains an anabolic steroid. (not to overload anyone, i will elaborate on the chemistry should there arise an interest)

so, now the million-norwegian-krona question is - why dr. bendiksen NOT used this easy explanation of his 'mistake' at a pressconference ' i was out to buy yellow apples but had to settle on the green ones for the lack of yellow...after all, apples are apples'

are they ? or we are talking about oranges ?

That theory explains only why the Dr would given Johaug wrong medicine that he thought was intended for the lips - another unfathomable mistake. It makes more sense that the Dr bought the Trofodermin package for the very reason that it contained Clostebol:

1. This was the “innocent explanation” in case the upcoming test came back positive
2. As Johaug’s condition was known and recurring, the Dr would have brought the medicine with him
3. If he forgot, he would have gone shopping right away, instead of waiting a full day
4. The Dr certainly would have read the instructions for any new medicine, and seen the DOPING warnings
5. Swedish anti-doping officials are baffled that a team Dr would purchase new type of medicine for an athlete from outside home country

Reading the athlete interviews suggests that ADNO has a pattern of testing the team on camps while in Norway - or upon returning from camps outside of Norway - easy access to all athletes, less travel & expense for ADNO. Since this camp was in Italy, there was a a high probability that (some) athletes would be tested once they get back home.

The Dr would have given Johaug an injection of Clostebol just before leaving for the camp - which would help her recover better from skiing up high at 3000 meters. Given the length of the camp and the historical record that Norwegians had never before been tested while at a training camp outside of their home country, it seemed like a perfectly safe method - used many times before.

So perhaps a tipoff about an upcoming doping test is not required for this theory and instead the Dr had learned about the new, more sensitive test in a medical journal in late August. So he panicked and flew down to Italy to come up with the cover story. The lip problem was a convenient coincidence, or induced by not putting lip balm on one sunny day.

 

[Cloxxki]

All very nice, but it doesn't explain waiting an extra day to cross the road from the hotel to get some doping. Or is trying other stuff first the elaborate ploy?

 

[Tubeless]

Re:

All very nice, but it doesn't explain waiting an extra day to cross the road from the hotel to get some doping. Or is trying other stuff first the elaborate ploy?

The Dr had no rush to get Trofodermin since it was just the cover story. Chances are he did go shopping on day 1, could not find anything with Clostebol on it that did not also say DOPING. So on 2nd day he decided that's the best he can do - hoping the cover story would never be needed.

 

[Cloxxki]

Re: Re:

All very nice, but it doesn't explain waiting an extra day to cross the road from the hotel to get some doping. Or is trying other stuff first the elaborate ploy?

The Dr had no rush to get Trofodermin since it was just the cover story. Chances are he did go shopping on day 1, could not find anything with Clostebol on it that did not also say DOPING. So on 2nd day he decided that's the best he can do - hoping the cover story would never be needed.

Another pausible one. Being picky got him a day of loss to explain for. Amateur hour.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

All very nice, but it doesn't explain waiting an extra day to cross the road from the hotel to get some doping. Or is trying other stuff first the elaborate ploy?

Yeah, but it was a long walk. All 125 meters of it!!

 

[Discgear]

Re:

a very interesting idea came to me this morning b/c i did not see it entertained ANYWHERE.

what if the good doc confused one of the available versions of trofodermin ('the indian version') with the one johaug would normally (allegedly) use (terra-cortril ) and allgedly not available in that pharmacy? iow, the doc may have thought he is buying an equivalent to terra-cortril in terms of active ingredients and the mechanism of action... ? but actually bought the 'italian/brazilian' trofodermin with clostebol. this could explain why he would NOT look at the package, but may also weaken the coverup if the cream was one (see below)...

sure enough. while not a medic, my chemistry background was enough to confirm the hypothesis..

both terra-cortril) and the 'indian' trofodermin contain similar (in terms of mechanism of action) active ingredients. both are essentially designed as a mixture of a broad spectrum antibiotic and an anti-inflammatory. neither contains an anabolic steroid. (not to overload anyone, i will elaborate on the chemistry should there arise an interest)

so, now the million-norwegian-krona question is - why dr. bendiksen NOT used this easy explanation of his 'mistake' at a pressconference ' i was out to buy yellow apples but had to settle on the green ones for the lack of yellow...after all, apples are apples'

are they ? or we are talking about oranges ?

Yes, it's a plausible theory, except the highlighted red part which truly is inexplicable.

But, on the other hand. Why should the renowned medic even consider using an obscure generica from India? That explanation would be plausible only if Johaug confessed that she bought the Trofodermin tube in Livigno herself. If caught with a positive she could have put out a story that she had sometime in the past used the India generica, with an approval from the medic. Now she thought it was the same.

Remember, they had more than a week to get their plot together after the positive. Yesterday it was revealed that Antidoping Norge didn't confront either Bendiksen or Johaug until seven days after the positive. We know that they did meet at least one time in person during that time. http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/johaug-tatt-i-doping/johaug-og-lege-avhoert-etter-syv-dager-helt-klart-uheldig/a/23832290/

Maybe, the plot that they did put together first, was that Johaug was going to take the hit (using the generica as an excuse) but somehow along the way changed her mind. Knowing quite a few shady things about good Frederik, she changed her mind and pushed him to take the blame, or bringing him down.

Finally, how come this hasn't become a criminal case in Norway? At least they did bring doping drugs into Norway. The doctor’s carelessness is in itself a case. If this is doping, there’s a lot of money involved. Sponsors, prize money, support from the society and so on. I guess in Italy, carabineros italianos would have questioned the athlete and the good doc in a similar case. Probably even in Sweden or Finland, someone would at least have filed the case to the police.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

a very interesting idea came to me this morning b/c i did not see it entertained ANYWHERE.

what if the good doc confused one of the available versions of trofodermin ('the indian version') with the one johaug would normally (allegedly) use (terra-cortril ) and allgedly not available in that pharmacy? iow, the doc may have thought he is buying an equivalent to terra-cortril in terms of active ingredients and the mechanism of action... ? but actually bought the 'italian/brazilian' trofodermin with clostebol. this could explain why he would NOT look at the package, but may also weaken the coverup if the cream was one (see below)...

sure enough. while not a medic, my chemistry background was enough to confirm the hypothesis..

both terra-cortril) and the 'indian' trofodermin contain similar (in terms of mechanism of action) active ingredients. both are essentially designed as a mixture of a broad spectrum antibiotic and an anti-inflammatory. neither contains an anabolic steroid. (not to overload anyone, i will elaborate on the chemistry should there arise an interest)

so, now the million-norwegian-krona question is - why dr. bendiksen NOT used this easy explanation of his 'mistake' at a pressconference ' i was out to buy yellow apples but had to settle on the green ones for the lack of yellow...after all, apples are apples'

are they ? or we are talking about oranges ?

Yes, it's a plausible theory, except the highlighted red part which truly is inexplicable.

But, on the other hand. Why should the renowned medic even consider using an obscure generica from India? That explanation would be plausible only if Johaug confessed that she bought the Trofodermin tube in Livigno herself. If caught with a positive she could have put out a story that she had sometime in the past used the India generica, with an approval from the medic. Now she thought it was the same.

Remember, they had more than a week to get their plot together after the positive. Yesterday it was revealed that Antidoping Norge didn't confront either Bendiksen or Johaug until seven days after the positive. We know that they did meet at least one time in person during that time. http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/johaug-tatt-i-doping/johaug-og-lege-avhoert-etter-syv-dager-helt-klart-uheldig/a/23832290/

Maybe, the plot that they did put together first, was that Johaug was going to take the hit (using the generica as an excuse) but somehow along the way changed her mind. Knowing quite a few shady things about good Frederik, she changed her mind and pushed him to take the blame, or bringing him down.

Finally, how come this hasn't become a criminal case in Norway? At least they did bring doping drugs into Norway. The doctor’s carelessness is in itself a case. If this is doping, there’s a lot of money involved. Sponsors, prize money, support from the society and so on. I guess in Italy, carabineros italianos would have questioned the athlete and the good doc in a similar case. Probably even in Sweden or Finland, someone would at least have filed the case to the police.

both you and tubeless put up reasonable comments to my hypothetical question...indeed, the chemical action/mechanism of action of the 2 creams is strikingly similar (though based on different chemicals). both are designed to reduce the local swelling while combating a bacterial presence. i don't have the qualifications to judge if one is stronger than another, but considering the relative concentration of the active ingredients i recon it is also quite comparable.

so, have i had a good potential answer, i would not bother. what you and tubeless suggested are certainly good alternatives to the official story.

if i was the wada - or any impartial, qualified investigator, which i am not - i would try to connect the multiple, almost inexplicable holes in the official story to a provable lie by the ANY of norwegian actors such a lie, if proven, even if subtle or not apparent, would allow wada to assume the worst and invest the resources into untanling the cover-up and demanding 4 years.

i speculate, if the good doc took the easy way out according to my hypothesis, he could be shown a liar. via his connections to pfizer perhaps.

 

[BullsFan22]

If Johaug gets the most severe punishment, 4 year suspension, that would be quite a punch for nordic skiing, particularly in Norway. Yes, the Norwegians have plenty of talent that will fill the void. I am not sure how long Bjoergen plans on skiing, whether she'll retire after the Olympics or keep going, I don't know, but as far numbers and results, the Norwegians should be ok in the long run. The hit however of the Johaug positive and whatever else is found with the steroid investigation, the doctor, the so-called 'treatment,' the potential cover-up story for a bigger issue (masking agent?) and the ongoing debate about asthma med use on non-asthmatics will stick to the Norwegians for some time. Maybe the media will do a good job of keeping quiet, or get bored and stop asking questions or something else, but I hope more is uncovered.

A four year ban for the overall WC winner of last year (and 2014), an multiple world champion, multiple olympic medalist...that will be one of the hardest punches FIS and the entire nordic world will have taken in terms of doping cases.

 

[Tubeless]

If Johaug gets the most severe punishment, 4 year suspension, that would be quite a punch for nordic skiing, particularly in Norway. Yes, the Norwegians have plenty of talent that will fill the void. I am not sure how long Bjoergen plans on skiing, whether she'll retire after the Olympics or keep going, I don't know, but as far numbers and results, the Norwegians should be ok in the long run. The hit however of the Johaug positive and whatever else is found with the steroid investigation, the doctor, the so-called 'treatment,' the potential cover-up story for a bigger issue (masking agent?) and the ongoing debate about asthma med use on non-asthmatics will stick to the Norwegians for some time. Maybe the media will do a good job of keeping quiet, or get bored and stop asking questions or something else, but I hope more is uncovered.

A four year ban for the overall WC winner of last year (and 2014), an multiple world champion, multiple olympic medalist...that will be one of the hardest punches FIS and the entire nordic world will have taken in terms of doping cases.

My prediction is that ADNO will issue a 2-year ban - they will accept the lip cream story (not intentional doping), but are not willing to accept "no significant negligence" on behalf of the athlete, according to the WADA code:

10.2.1 The period of Ineligibility shall be four years where ... The anti-doping rule violation involves a Specified Substance and the Anti-Doping Organization can establish that the anti-doping rule violation was intentional.

10.2.2 If Article 10.2.1 does not apply, the period of Ineligibility shall be two years.

10.5.2. If an Athlete ... establishes ... that he or she bears No Significant Fault or Negligence, then ... the otherwise applicable period of Ineligibility may be reduced ... but the reduced period of Ineligibility may not be less than one-half of the period of Ineligibility otherwise applicable.

Then FIS will appeal this case to CAS, arguing that the cover up story has too many holes to be believable - and CAS will issue the final ruling a year or so later - 4 years.

The very reason the DOPING label was added to all medicine sold in Italy that contain prohibited substances was that athletes would not be able to claim ignorance and negotiate a lower ban based on some misunderstanding. It would be ironic / wrong to give Johaug an exception as a non-italian who could not understand the language !!??