Doping in XC skiing

[Kokoso]

I agree with Python. We get it, Daehlie was talented, high VO2 max, lots of KM's of training, hard work, dedicated, blah, blah, blah....

You didn't even read what Bambino wrote and only reacted on Python, FFS. Bambino never claimed Daehlie was clean, on the contrary actually he said Daehlie doped, end of the story. Ridiculous.

Seeing reactions like yours and python's, no wonder people like John De Savage appear making the same but the other way round.

 

[BullsFan22]

I agree with Python. We get it, Daehlie was talented, high VO2 max, lots of KM's of training, hard work, dedicated, blah, blah, blah....

You didn't even read what Bambino wrote and only reacted on Python, FFS. Bambino never claimed Daehlie was clean, on the contrary actually he said Daehlie doped, end of the story. Ridiculous.

Seeing reactions like yours and python's, no wonder people like John De Savage appear making the same but the other way round.

That's rich coming from a guy that's one of the most reactionary around these threads.

Kokoso, these types of discussions have been going on around this thread since the early days, fall of 2010. I am aware what Bambino said. I was not only responding to bambino/python, but to the thought of Daehlie possibly being clean as far-fetched and to that general idea. Again, the discussions regarding Daehlie, the Norwegians, the Swedes, 90's, EPO era, high hemoglobin, blood bags, etc have been around this thread for years. You don't remember these discussions in this thread?

 

[Kokoso]

I agree with Python. We get it, Daehlie was talented, high VO2 max, lots of KM's of training, hard work, dedicated, blah, blah, blah....

You didn't even read what Bambino wrote and only reacted on Python, FFS. Bambino never claimed Daehlie was clean, on the contrary actually he said Daehlie doped, end of the story. Ridiculous.

Seeing reactions like yours and python's, no wonder people like John De Savage appear making the same but the other way round.

That's rich coming from a guy that's one of the most reactionary around these threads.

Kokoso, these types of discussions have been going on around this thread since the early days, fall of 2010. I am aware what Bambino said. I was not only responding to bambino/python, but to the thought of Daehlie possibly being clean as far-fetched and to that general idea.

You've specifically wrote you agree with Python on Daehlie, who reacted on Bambino. Surely it's clear to you that I could have no idea that you actually aren't responding on him thus I was absolutelly right with my reaction. Now I could understand people mean something and write something else, which was obviously this case, but then again in such circumstances they can't wonder when someone reacts on what they actually wrote.
Defending yourself calling the other whatever is always stupid, but even more stupid when he's right.

Edit: yes, I remember such discussions, but I don't see a point to react on something nobody is actually claiming. Nobody claimed Daehlie is clean yet you are arguing that? Why? That's pointless and only likely to make flame.And finally, when you "react" on something nobody is claiming or talking about, to write "I agree with someone" is only confusing. Nonsensical actually.

 

[bambino]

What a discussion...

My point was, let's make it clear, that I'm sure Dählie was in juices. At the same time I'm quite sure all of them were, including Swedes. I'd like to believe that if more or less each every one of them were blood doping their brains out (no tests), then the physically and techically most talented will win. I know it is not THAT straightforward, but we do know that doping will not give you more than 10-15% boost on your abilities, you need to be pretty freaking talented athlete to get that level even without doping.

That aside, I rather speak and read around your thoughts about Norwegian hypochrasy and masking their doping issue today, out of which John De Savage still gets us distracted pretty successfully.

 

[python]

That's rich coming from a guy that's one of the most reactionary around these threads.

don't waste your time ...he is almost universally ignored or told off on both winter threads. even libertine who he was successfully bating with the same nationalistic platitudes, is no longer falling into the trap. he knows very little of the xc ski sport beyond the few compatriots which constitutes the bulk of his posting. when suggested to chill by several posters wrt to slo vs. svk (which was a joke b/c i understand svk reasonably well), he went on to produce irrelevant garbage for pages diverting the good thread... and even in the latest round he is confused and hung on one barely main point b/c he is incapable of separation a wider context and the several points made. perhaps he longs attention b/c most ignore him.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

What a discussion...

My point was, let's make it clear, that I'm sure Dählie was in juices. At the same time I'm quite sure all of them were, including Swedes. I'd like to believe that if more or less each every one of them were blood doping their brains out (no tests), then the physically and techically most talented will win. I know it is not THAT straightforward, but we do know that doping will not give you more than 10-15% boost on your abilities, you need to be pretty freaking talented athlete to get that level even without doping.

That aside, I rather speak and read around your thoughts about Norwegian hypochrasy and masking their doping issue today, out of which John De Savage still gets us distracted pretty successfully.

And I agree. I hope we are all, including Kokoso, clear on this now.

 

[python]

Re:

What a discussion...

My point was, let's make it clear, that I'm sure Dählie was in juices. At the same time I'm quite sure all of them were, including Swedes. I'd like to believe that if more or less each every one of them were blood doping their brains out (no tests), then the physically and techically most talented will win. I know it is not THAT straightforward, but we do know that doping will not give you more than 10-15% boost on your abilities, you need to be pretty freaking talented athlete to get that level even without doping.

That aside, I rather speak and read around your thoughts about Norwegian hypochrasy and masking their doping issue today, out of which John De Savage still gets us distracted pretty successfully.

my earlier post quite obviously agreed with most of your points. the swedes were as suspicious as anyone. i said it clearly. where i may take a respectful difference is the bolded.

i have some experience with looking at some elite doping cases closely (and the related science, whatever it means). including the doping performance effects, which is a controversial subject.

if the doping effects were linear, proportionally equal for every one, that is uniform and predictable...then your point would hold perfectly.

but that's not the case at all biologically speaking !

this is a fact of our biological diversity and bio-individuality as humans. think of the 2 quick example: some will take 1 beer to get drunk, others will drive safely after 3 beers. some will get high (or puke) after just 1 morning coffee, others will drink their coffee all day long and sleep well.

the point being that there are good and poor respondents to a specific doping agent. the point being, that there are different doping programs in terms of their sophistication, usually dependent on the dopers resources..
the point being that we simply can not apply a talent or a technical proficiency simplistically to a physical/physiological mix that's so complex and unpredictable.

that was the armstrong strategy during it's ugliest, while many wondered why a talent he purported himself to be could not run a 5 min mile being a skinny triathlete...nothing personal against your best and honest judgement, bumbino

 

[Robert5091]

http://www.dn.se/sport/johaugs-avstangning-forlangd/
Påtalsnämnden i Antidopning Norge förlänger Johaugs avstängning med två månader till den 19 februari 2017.
Johaug ska förhöras i Oslo den 25–27 januari.
Original Norwegian Press Release at http://antidoping.no/om-antidoping-norge/nyheter/forlenger-suspensjonen-av-johaug/
3 days to question Johaug?! I predict a circus ...

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

What a discussion...

My point was, let's make it clear, that I'm sure Dählie was in juices.
And I agree. I hope we are all, including Kokoso, clear on this now.

I was clear on that even before, so I looked some else aren't.

 

[Kokoso]

That's rich coming from a guy that's one of the most reactionary around these threads.

don't waste your time ...he is almost universally ignored or told off on both winter threads. even libertine who he was successfully bating with the same nationalistic platitudes, is no longer falling into the trap. he knows very little of the xc ski sport beyond the few compatriots which constitutes the bulk of his posting. when suggested to chill by several posters wrt to slo vs. svk (which was a joke b/c i understand svk reasonably well), he went on to produce irrelevant garbage for pages diverting the good thread... and even in the latest round he is confused and hung on one barely main point b/c he is incapable of separation a wider context and the several points made. perhaps he longs attention b/c most ignore him.

I am "almost universally ignored", but actually repeatedly you are reacting on me in this "classy" way by not talking directly to me, but talking about me in third person, not ignoring me at all. This time you've maybe managed to take it one step further - looks like you've decided to introduce me to the public a bit I've called you out for your mistake, thank you for you friendly repeated efforts
Anyway, I don't see nationalistic platitudes relate to the Bjorn Daehlie. What nationalistic trap I was laying by pointing out Bambino did not claim Daehlie was clean? You begin to see nationalism everywhere, python.

Of course I know less about xc skiing than some others, and what? That whoever knows less about xc skiing than some others doesn't make him lesser human, unworthy to react on.

Yep, I've reacted only on part of what Bambino wrote (Bullsfan too actually and I don't see you bashing him for that), but that doesn't mean I don't get the context. Do you react on everything someone says every time?

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

What a discussion...

My point was, let's make it clear, that I'm sure Dählie was in juices.
And I agree. I hope we are all, including Kokoso, clear on this now.

I was clear on that even before, so I looked some else aren't.

I am happy to see that you are still beating a dead horse.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

What a discussion...

My point was, let's make it clear, that I'm sure Dählie was in juices.
And I agree. I hope we are all, including Kokoso, clear on this now.

I was clear on that even before, so I looked some else aren't.

I am happy to see that you are still beating a dead horse.

Glad you've joined me in doing so But you know, beating a dead horse answer actually belongs to you. All you could answer to Bambino was somehing like "ok, I get it now and I agree". The way you've answered looks like poking, there was no need to emphasize me above others, especially when I understood Bambino from the beginning. You've made me angry now.

 

[abcdaniel]

Randomly found this article from 2003, not referenced before in this thread: http://www.expressen.se/sport/langdskidor/majbacks-attack-mot-smirnov/

In it, Christer Majbäck, half prominent Swedish rider, lets out some steam regarding Vladimir Smirnov working for WADA in that period. Majbäck, apparently, was six minutes behind Smirnov in the 30km at Thinder Bay 1995. In hindsight, all of the article's content is kind of interesting. First, Majbäck is positive that Smirnov was doping during Thunder Bay, and references a study showing extreme blood values among the medalists (a study he hasn't seen with his own eyes, but claims rumours of the study's content has been going around). Second, Smirnov working for WADA?!? Extremely bad judgment, or good judgment, depending on what WADA is for. Third, Smirnov, when asked about his blood values, says: "Ask the FIS medical committee". No follow up on that, but a confident answer, no doubt. Fourth, Majbäck doesn't lash out on Norway, but on Smirnov, who in that era was immensly popular in Sweden, much more so than the Norwegian riders. Omerta has been mentioned, don't know if that is a correct label, but there is definitely an affinity between Sweden and Norway that goes deep in skiing. Journalists and commentators still find it very difficult to point their fingers at Norway. Don't mention the Dählie!

 

[Robert5091]

http://britishbiathlon.com/2016/12/21/gbr-lead-boycott-of-wc-8-in-tyumen-rus/
...The Board of the British Biathlon Union had taken the unanimous decision that GBR will not compete at BWC 8 in Tyumen March 2017. This follows the brain-washed, deluded and dishonest comments of Russian WC athletes that McLaren is about Politics, not sport and the unprecedented booing of the Russian female athlete who won the Sprint at WC 2 last weekend in Nove Mesto. Moreover, the Board felt that the whole integrity of the very successful London 2012 Olympic Games has been called into question. Finally, many of the results from Sochi must be regarded as “a joke”.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/38399376
The British biathlon team have pulled out of the Russian leg of a World Cup event.

A statement said the decision was made because of "brain-washed, deluded and dishonest comments" from Russian athletes following the McLaren report.

The report claims more than 1,000 Russians benefited from state-sponsored doping between 2011 and 2015.

There are 31 suspicious cases against biathletes, according to the International Biathlon Union.

The IBU is due to announce sanctions for the athletes named in the report on 22 December, in accordance with the framework set out by the World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada).

The Sochi Olympic Winter Games featured heavily in lawyer Richard McLaren's investigation.

Britain have joined Czech Republic in boycotting the biathlon event in Tyumen, which runs from 9-12 March.

 

[BullsFan22]

http://britishbiathlon.com/2016/12/21/gbr-lead-boycott-of-wc-8-in-tyumen-rus/
...The Board of the British Biathlon Union had taken the unanimous decision that GBR will not compete at BWC 8 in Tyumen March 2017. This follows the brain-washed, deluded and dishonest comments of Russian WC athletes that McLaren is about Politics, not sport and the unprecedented booing of the Russian female athlete who won the Sprint at WC 2 last weekend in Nove Mesto. Moreover, the Board felt that the whole integrity of the very successful London 2012 Olympic Games has been called into question. Finally, many of the results from Sochi must be regarded as “a joke”.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/38399376
The British biathlon team have pulled out of the Russian leg of a World Cup event.

A statement said the decision was made because of "brain-washed, deluded and dishonest comments" from Russian athletes following the McLaren report.

The report claims more than 1,000 Russians benefited from state-sponsored doping between 2011 and 2015.

There are 31 suspicious cases against biathletes, according to the International Biathlon Union.

The IBU is due to announce sanctions for the athletes named in the report on 22 December, in accordance with the framework set out by the World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada).

The Sochi Olympic Winter Games featured heavily in lawyer Richard McLaren's investigation.

Britain have joined Czech Republic in boycotting the biathlon event in Tyumen, which runs from 9-12 March.

The Brits?!? All two of them?? LOL. Anyway, if recent geo-political developments are any indication, the Russian biathletes will be banned, even the clean ones.

 

[kingjr]

No one cares about or needs Brits in Biathlon apart from Dixon/Winterton, so it really is laughable. The amount of time British biathletes were seen on TV over the last 10 years amounts to what, 50 seconds? Most of it probably Lee-Steve Jackson hitting 3/5 in a random 20k race.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

No one cares about or needs Brits in Biathlon apart from Dixon/Winterton, so it really is laughable. The amount of time British biathletes were seen on TV over the last 10 years amounts to what, 50 seconds? Most of it probably Lee-Steve Jackson hitting 3/5 in a random 20k race.

The only Brits competing at the World Cup level are Scott Dixon and Amanda Lightfooty. Neither of them have earned a single WC point (top 40). They should probably worry about getting into the top 70's rather than who is doping and who isn't.

 

[PeterB]

Re: Re:

No one cares about or needs Brits in Biathlon apart from Dixon/Winterton, so it really is laughable. The amount of time British biathletes were seen on TV over the last 10 years amounts to what, 50 seconds? Most of it probably Lee-Steve Jackson hitting 3/5 in a random 20k race.

The only Brits competing at the World Cup level are Scott Dixon and Amanda Lightfooty. Neither of them have earned a single WC point (top 40). They should probably worry about getting into the top 70's rather than who is doping and who isn't.

Isn't it so that once they sort out who is doping they get higher in the results? So maybe they do the right thing to address that particular worry.

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

No one cares about or needs Brits in Biathlon apart from Dixon/Winterton, so it really is laughable. The amount of time British biathletes were seen on TV over the last 10 years amounts to what, 50 seconds? Most of it probably Lee-Steve Jackson hitting 3/5 in a random 20k race.

The only Brits competing at the World Cup level are Scott Dixon and Amanda Lightfooty. Neither of them have earned a single WC point (top 40). They should probably worry about getting into the top 70's rather than who is doping and who isn't.

Isn't it so that once they sort out who is doping they get higher in the results? So maybe they do the right thing to address that particular worry.

Yes, maybe they will make it into the pursuit race someday. And then get lapped after 5 km. I think Lightfoot has already had the pleasure.

 

[Robert5091]

The interesting bit was,
"The Czech Republic withdrew their teams (placed 3rd in Nations Cup (Women), and 6th (Men) and will not compete in Russia again until WADA and the IOC have given their approval that Russian Anti-Doping procedures are “clean”. That afternoon Norway demanded that IBU strip of all sanctioned biathlon events until the procedures are “clean” and also immediately ban all named Russian biathletes in the (confidential section of the) McLaren report. If these demands are not met Norway will consider boycotting all events in RUS."

 

[python]

any one wants to take a stab at what the ibu will decide at its punitive meeting today ?

here goes mine:
i do not believe they will resort to a total ban of a federation like the athletics. it's not warranted, nor is fair to those who are and were clean. otoh, if there are specific names and a hard evidence against the names, they should receive a suspension according to the wada rules with a guarantee of appeal. if the only evidence is based on the words of a self-admitted corrupt individual like rodchenkov, it showed be thrown out. if corroborated by some additional tests, the athletes should receive a ban.

perhaps if a doped group is numerous, i would understand the suspension of hosting the competitions for a season or 2.

anything more, i would consider excessive.

 

[wansteadimp]

Yet no-one asks what that nice Martin is doing to blow the doors off the nasty evil cheating Ruskies year after year.

 

[kingjr]

Re:

Yet no-one asks what that nice Martin is doing to blow the doors off the nasty evil cheating Ruskies year after year.

Go ahead and ask, you can be the first. What answers do you expect do get though?

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

any one wants to take a stab at what the ibu will decide at its punitive meeting today ?

here goes mine:
i do not believe they will resort to a total ban of a federation like the athletics. it's not warranted, nor is fair to those who are and were clean. otoh, if there are specific names and a hard evidence against the names, they should receive a suspension according to the wada rules with a guarantee of appeal. if the only evidence is based on the words of a self-admitted corrupt individual like rodchenkov, it showed be thrown out. if corroborated by some additional tests, the athletes should receive a ban.

perhaps if a doped group is numerous, i would understand the suspension of hosting the competitions for a season or 2.

anything more, i would consider excessive.

I know what all the holier-than-thou Americans, Canadians, Brits, Czechs, want...see the entire biathlon federation banned, stripped of results, banned from competing in Hochfilzen, next year's Olympics, and Tyumen and Ostrov world cup/junior worlds taken away and also the 2021 Tyumen world champs taken away.

My take? I think that will happen.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

any one wants to take a stab at what the ibu will decide at its punitive meeting today ?

here goes mine:
i do not believe they will resort to a total ban of a federation like the athletics. it's not warranted, nor is fair to those who are and were clean. otoh, if there are specific names and a hard evidence against the names, they should receive a suspension according to the wada rules with a guarantee of appeal. if the only evidence is based on the words of a self-admitted corrupt individual like rodchenkov, it showed be thrown out. if corroborated by some additional tests, the athletes should receive a ban.

perhaps if a doped group is numerous, i would understand the suspension of hosting the competitions for a season or 2.

anything more, i would consider excessive.

I know what all the holier-than-thou Americans, Canadians, Brits, Czechs, want...see the entire biathlon federation banned, stripped of results, banned from competing in Hochfilzen, next year's Olympics, and Tyumen and Ostrov world cup/junior worlds taken away and also the 2021 Tyumen world champs taken away.

My take? I think that will happen.

There's an American who cares about biathlon? Who woulda thunk it.