Doping in XC skiing

[roundabout]

Define peaking beautifully/badly/whatever first.

In the 3 individuals in the 2017 season Bailey was 25th, 26th and 23rd fastest skier.

 

[Kokoso]

Kuzmina is most shady to me alongside Fourcade, JT Boe and Cologna. In Central Europe more is possible than in other places.

Could you elaborate please how is that possible? Btw. Fourcade, JTB and Clogna all train in Central Europe, or what?

 

[Kokoso]

Kuzmina is suspicious. Fastest ever on skis even despite not very good technique. Whether children have to do something with that is a question. I've heard that after giving a birth you actually gain endurance. One such example would be Dorin-Habert in previous seasons. She was fastest ever after child. Speaking about her, she's another one very suspicious. She got really bad given her previous standard. Another suspicious one is Domracheva. Pretty subpar.

 

[glassmoon]

Kuzmina is suspicious. Fastest ever on skis even despite not very good technique. Whether children have to do something with that is a question. I've heard that after giving a birth you actually gain endurance. One such example would be Dorin-Habert in previous seasons. She was fastest ever after child. Speaking about her, she's another one very suspicious. She got really bad given her previous standard. Another suspicious one is Domracheva. Pretty subpar.

everyone in the top10 is suspicious imho.
As Don Catlin said when asked (in Icarus movie/doc) whether the top athletes are using PEDs: "Yes. Every one of them."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Catlin
- he's author/designer of many of the doping tests and he is very well aware of how easy they can be avoided/fooled/passed.

 

[python]

just saw this...on its face, it appears quite significant
https://www.tv2.no/sport/9691235/

norway ,'unlike other nation',will provide information about the therapeutic use exemptions used by the norwegian athletes. the decision came in the aftermath of the criticism norway received after the insane amounts of medication, including the cortisone varieties, they have shipped to the olympics were revealed.

another public relations trick or a genuine attempt at a true transparency ?

make your own decision. i am a skeptic. in part b/c i had been hearing 'we have nothing to hide' from too many who resorted exactly to hiding (or other similar methods) until exposed by the cas/wada/media .

 

[Kokoso]

Kuzmina is suspicious. Fastest ever on skis even despite not very good technique. Whether children have to do something with that is a question. I've heard that after giving a birth you actually gain endurance. One such example would be Dorin-Habert in previous seasons. She was fastest ever after child. Speaking about her, she's another one very suspicious. She got really bad given her previous standard. Another suspicious one is Domracheva. Pretty subpar.

everyone in the top10 is suspicious imho.
As Don Catlin said when asked (in Icarus movie/doc) whether the top athletes are using PEDs: "Yes. Every one of them."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Catlin
- he's author/designer of many of the doping tests and he is very well aware of how easy they can be avoided/fooled/passed.

Pointless reaction. Everyone can be doping. Even those who are not in top ten.

 

[lartiste]

Kuzmina is suspicious. Fastest ever on skis even despite not very good technique. Whether children have to do something with that is a question. I've heard that after giving a birth you actually gain endurance. One such example would be Dorin-Habert in previous seasons. She was fastest ever after child. Speaking about her, she's another one very suspicious. She got really bad given her previous standard. Another suspicious one is Domracheva. Pretty subpar.

If I remember correctly USSR was playing with pregnancy (latter abortion) in respect of gymnasts. The reason was, that during pregnancy female body secrete hormones so it was way of doping.

In general I see three main reasons why female athlete can improve after child birth:

1. hormones and therefore ability to train harder
2. at least one year break of career therefore they are rested (OK, at least in respect of sport)
3. in general they are mentally more relaxed and take the sport more easy

But I cannot comment Kuzmina specifically, since I am not watching Olympics since I do not agree with behaviour of IOC towards Russians eventhough I never prayed for them.

 

[Aragon]

Pointless reaction. Everyone can be doping. Even those who are not in top ten.

Everyone can be doping, exactly true.

But even without going to world of increased future incomes or other intangible benefits associated with PED-related increased performance, if we simply assume that the dopers gain a significant advantage, it is very likely that they should be overrepresented at the top because they have the tendency to outperform the clean athletes.

This is fifteen years old news, but the blood data collected at the FIS 2001 Lahti World Championships from endurance type of events analyzed by Dr. Jim Stray-Gundersen and a few other researchers supports this claim, when the "suspicious" blood values were almost exclusively distributed at the top-10:

(black dots = highly abnormal values, grey dots= abnormal)

It wasn't just hemoglobin and reticulocytes they looked at, but there were also other parameters, if my memory is sound.

 

[glassmoon]

Kuzmina is suspicious. Fastest ever on skis even despite not very good technique. Whether children have to do something with that is a question. I've heard that after giving a birth you actually gain endurance. One such example would be Dorin-Habert in previous seasons. She was fastest ever after child. Speaking about her, she's another one very suspicious. She got really bad given her previous standard. Another suspicious one is Domracheva. Pretty subpar.

everyone in the top10 is suspicious imho.
As Don Catlin said when asked (in Icarus movie/doc) whether the top athletes are using PEDs: "Yes. Every one of them."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Catlin
- he's author/designer of many of the doping tests and he is very well aware of how easy they can be avoided/fooled/passed.

Pointless reaction. Everyone can be doping. Even those who are not in top ten.

Of course. But those in top10 are kinda... certain (imho - history just confirms it. yeah i am way beyond the fairy tales and super(wo)men )

 

[BullsFan22]

Is it just me or did Randall outperform her capabilities (these days, not 5-10 years ago) today?? Yes, a skate sprint on hard packed, fast conditions are the most ideal for her, but not allowing any sort of gap to Bjoergen and Kalla?!?

 

[Discgear]

Norways gold count continues. Two of them with a bitter aftertaste. Conquered by a returned doper who breathes like a stranded whale after finish.

 

[ToreBear]

Is it just me or did Randall outperform her capabilities (these days, not 5-10 years ago) today?? Yes, a skate sprint on hard packed, fast conditions are the most ideal for her, but not allowing any sort of gap to Bjoergen and Kalla?!?

I don't think so. It's not that long since she and Diggins won the world championship (Edit: dam, 5 years went by fast). This performance is within what I think is to be expected.

Remember Bjørgen is not that dominant in sprints anymore, and Kalla doesn't have much experience in team sprints, or sprints in general.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Bjørgen may not be that dominant in sprints anymore, but in the four years since Sochi, Kikkan has had three podiums, all in sprints, one in Lahti 2015, another in Lahti at the Worlds last year, and one in Davos 2017. She's not podiumed a Team Sprint since that win with Diggins 5 years ago, and she's not podiumed any team race since December 2013. I know she took time out to have a baby in that break but realistically, she's 35 years old and hasn't been especially 'good' in much at all since Sochi, and was very fortunate to get that medal in Lahti too. Definitely she was above the performance level she's shown here or pretty much anywhere for most of the last few seasons, but opinions may vary on how inherently suspicious that is or isn't especially bearing in mind some of those who peaked early in the Games - given the skiathlon I'd anticipate Kalla is one of those - may be tiring now. The American XC girls do have a habit of hitting the right form at the right time, even if they do sometimes require a good dollop of fortune too - remember Caitlin Gregg? - as was the case with Kikkan's sprint medal last season when she'd been thoroughly anonymous all season; today however there was nothing fortunate about the win.

 

[BullsFan22]

Is it just me or did Randall outperform her capabilities (these days, not 5-10 years ago) today?? Yes, a skate sprint on hard packed, fast conditions are the most ideal for her, but not allowing any sort of gap to Bjoergen and Kalla?!?

I don't think so. It's not that long since she and Diggins won the world championship (Edit: dam, 5 years went by fast). This performance is within what I think is to be expected.

Remember Bjørgen is not that dominant in sprints anymore, and Kalla doesn't have much experience in team sprints, or sprints in general.

Bjoergen isn't dominant in sprints, I don't disagree, but Randall isn't either, and she's only two years younger. At least Bjoergen has had some run of success, and yes, I know both have had baby breaks after Sochi. Diggins's performance is maybe a bit too good, but it's not as surprising as Randall's. If you had told me before the Olympics that Randall would be on the team sprint, I'd laugh. Diggins, Caldwell, Bjornsen and even Sargent were the more obvious picks. In Dresden, yes, I know the sprint there was flat, Randall didn't look that convincing. Today she hung on without too many problems to Kalla and Bjoergen.

Kalla has enough experience in team sprints. It's like saying Dario Cologna doesn't have much experience in team sprints. Kalla was on the 2010 team team, the 2011 world's team sprint, 2013 world's team sprint, and now 2018. She's also had plenty of team sprint experience on the world cup and she's done very well in individual sprints (mostly in skate) as well. Plus this type of race is what people with endurance AND power, Kalla and Bjoergen can really do well in. The sprinters legs can get neutralized and it becomes a race of attrition where often times distance skiers prevail. It's why you see Alex Harvey do well in sprints when he actually makes it into the heats. The further a distance or universal skier goes in the heats, the better his/her chances get.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Bjørgen may not be that dominant in sprints anymore, but in the four years since Sochi, Kikkan has had three podiums, all in sprints, one in Lahti 2015, another in Lahti at the Worlds last year, and one in Davos 2017. She's not podiumed a Team Sprint since that win with Diggins 5 years ago, and she's not podiumed any team race since December 2013. I know she took time out to have a baby in that break but realistically, she's 35 years old and hasn't been especially 'good' in much at all since Sochi, and was very fortunate to get that medal in Lahti too. Definitely she was above the performance level she's shown here or pretty much anywhere for most of the last few seasons, but opinions may vary on how inherently suspicious that is or isn't especially bearing in mind some of those who peaked early in the Games - given the skiathlon I'd anticipate Kalla is one of those - may be tiring now. The American XC girls do have a habit of hitting the right form at the right time, even if they do sometimes require a good dollop of fortune too - remember Caitlin Gregg? - as was the case with Kikkan's sprint medal last season when she'd been thoroughly anonymous all season; today however there was nothing fortunate about the win.

Well Diggins has had form for more or less an entire season for a few years now. Her success is not surprising. The other women have been somewhat disappointing so far. Caldwell had a good sprint, but blew up in the opening relay leg. Bjornsen has been ok, but nothing special, a contrast to her WC season so far. Randall has had nothing so far this year, and all of a sudden she's skiing like she's 25 again, not 35.

Yes, they had luck in the 2015 10km in falun, where the weather played a major role. Oestberg stuck a pole between her legs in the 2013 World's team sprint, which may or may not have played a role. Last year in Lahti, Van Der Graaff was DQ'd (wrongly) for supposedly impeding Randall in the quarterfinal in the sprint. Randall moved up a spot and into the lucky loser position. Then in the semis, Nilsson and Matveeva fell, enabling Randall and Caldwell to make the final. This year's win is Randall finding the form from somewhere and Diggins showing that tenacity that she is known for.

 

[Brullnux]

Who'd win between vintage (1994 lillehammer) and fully-juiced Manuela di Centa or vintage olympic bjoergen (2010 vancouver)

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Re:

Who'd win between vintage (1994 lillehammer) and fully-juiced Manuela di Centa or vintage olympic bjoergen (2010 vancouver)

Distance and technique? In cycling, we always have the problem of comparing different decades due to training and competition faced. In skiing, there is also the very real problem of technique. In cycling its "just" pedalling, while in skiing so much of "who you are" is your technique and so comparing with the assumption of an equal technique is almost impossible (Imagine a Muhlegg with an equal technique of Bjorndalen in skate, would be the greatest ever). I believe the technical skills, particularly in skate, has improved a lot since the 1990's hence Bjorgen across the board in that discipline. PRobably an interesting fight in classic though

 

[Oude Geuze]

Manuela had the Johaug build and cadence only with suboptimal technique. I think it depends on the course. Downhill, flats and gradients under 7% Bjorgen would demolish her. Especially gentler slopes where they now push V2? (dobbeldans in Norwegian) where before the paddled (also Norwegian translation, I don’t know English terminology). But on really steep and long climbs I think she might open a significant gap. Salt lake Muhlegg would of course still beat everyone except in sprints as salt lake muhlegg is the goat of xc for all time

 

[ToreBear]

@Libertine seguros, BullsFan22
I'we gone through her results, and As far as I can see, the area which she has always been good at is sprint free, and to my eyes, it looks like she still is pretty good at it. She is a sprinter, kalla is a distance skier and Bjørgen was a sprinter and is still a distance skier. They meet in the hybrid that team sprint can be with the right course. She looked like the weakest of the three, but her job was to hang on, which she did. I really don't see anything out of the ordinary here. As for the team sprint results, those events are so rare and depend on a partner as well as the usual variables that I don't see any of the results in those as indicative of her performance in Peyonchang being outside of what I view as her capabilities.

My thinking relating to Kalla in sprinting, is that she looks out of place in a tight field. She doesn't have the mental calmness that an experienced sprinter has. Meaning she is likely to use more energy than is needed.

 

[ToreBear]

Re:

Manuela had the Johaug build and cadence only with suboptimal technique. I think it depends on the course. Downhill, flats and gradients under 7% Bjorgen would demolish her. Especially gentler slopes where they now push V2? (dobbeldans in Norwegian) where before the paddled (also Norwegian translation, I don’t know English terminology). But on really steep and long climbs I think she might open a significant gap. Salt lake Muhlegg would of course still beat everyone except in sprints as salt lake muhlegg is the goat of xc for all time

I get lost in the different terminologies since for example IIRC skate 2 is different from V2 for example. I like the Swedish system of gears where double dance is third gear, single dance 4th gear etc.

Anyway I think Salt lake Muhlegg would be beatable at sea level, where the others have more oxygen.

 

[Cloxxki]

Re:

Who'd win between vintage (1994 lillehammer) and fully-juiced Manuela di Centa or vintage olympic bjoergen (2010 vancouver)

Let's not pretend that Bjoergen is above suspicion. The Astma thing, the body builder long hill climber thing. Going from a sprinter to a dominant distance skier (with that muscle mass).
Norwegians are just starting to get caught. Bjoergen and Bjoerdalen despite long careers seems to be heading for a soon enough retirement.

 

[Pazuzu]

Re: Re:

Let's not pretend that Bjoergen is above suspicion. The Astma thing, the body builder long hill climber thing. Going from a sprinter to a dominant distance skier (with that muscle mass).
Norwegians are just starting to get caught. Bjoergen and Bjoerdalen despite long careers seems to be heading for a soon enough retirement.

Yep. Her goddamned neck is nearly as thick as her skull!

Jessie Diggins on the other hand, while well toned, isn't ripped, and while she's a great sprinter, unlike the muscle bound Bjoergen, she's not a dominant distance skier too.

 

[Discgear]

Summarizing the Aerobic Olympics
Counting the gold medals that the nations took in an aerobic event. I did leave out the downhill skiing and the Super G which arguable could be included.

Norge 10 of 14
Tyskland 6 of 14
Canada 2 of 11
USA 1 of 9
Netherlands 8 of 8
Sweden 4 of 7
Korea 3 of 5
Switzerland 1 of 5
France 3 of 5
Austria 0 of 5
Japan 3 of 4
Italy 1 of 3
OAR 0 of 2
Czech republic 0 of 2
Belarus 1 of 2
China 1 of 1
Slovakia 1 of 1
Finland 1 of 1

 

[meat puppet]

I think the correct question is not whether björgen pulled a muhlegg but whether muhlegg pulled a björgen.

 

[Cloxxki]

Re:

I think the correct question is not whether björgen pulled a muhlegg but whether muhlegg pulled a björgen.

I actually believe Marit pulled an Armstrong/Bolt. All the bad tell tales, super blatant, top sports governors on speed dial. Marion Jones was competing in a level playing field in comparison.
The not unexpected cardiac issues were somehow surmounted and shuffled aside. She was able to give birth and come back more dominant on the 30k than before. Looking like a power lifter. Who's lost her sprint ability compared to the slender girls.
The whole notion that you want lean muscle in a body weight bearing sport being ridiculed for all to see, but none to explain.
Now if she quits we get to deal with cute little Terese and her lies upon lies again. 2 years without the same level of scrutiny that the active athletes had to deal with. She may well come back a monster. I'm dreading next season. I used to be a fan actually, the lies and implicit insults killed that for me. Didn't even get to enjoy the fantasy that the lip balm story might be true, so badly did they prepare her eventual positive. But, the amateuristic doping gets a pass with the TV presenters. She's unlucky, you see. Let's blame Russia.

Where on the results lists should we search for the first truly clean finisher? What can a supremely talented, happily healthy, dedicated and well trained young woman do over 30km, for real? The time gaps are large, so there should be hope for a clean competitor to make it to a top...20?