Blaaswix can answer on his/her own behalf, but I do agree that this shouldn't be happening. An athlete should of course have the right to be treated with the mest medicaments available when having health problems. But, the right to compete with those medicaments in the body, especially with well documented performance enhancing effects, should be taken away. The whole TUE system is misused and a complete joke.Kokoso said:
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TUE system isn't complete joke, only partly. I agree that retroactive TUE issued if the athlete intends to compete shouldn't exist. That really is a joke. I also agree that athlete shouldn't compete whihle under performance enhancing drug, as with Wiggin's case. But if there is emergency situation, of course athlete has to have a right to use performance enhancing drug (such as Kenacort) and that's what TUE should be for.Discgear said:
Also I think any subtance even only suspicious for performance enhancing effects shouldn't be allowed. Such as salbutamol and other B-2 agonists. Why are they allowed when WADA knows they can enhance performance at least in certain circumstance's, that't beyond me.
P.S. I don't know whether Blaaswix would react, maybe that's good you'd reacted. Last time we've had a discussion Blaaswix torebeard
(that means there was silence when he realized he's wrong).
Re:
Not a single top 10 in the world cup, good but not exactly a world beater in the junior ranks and then such a skiing performance in 2 consecutive races, it is pretty suspicious.
Even the Austrian commentators were a bit sceptical durning the race.Kokoso said:
Not a single top 10 in the world cup, good but not exactly a world beater in the junior ranks and then such a skiing performance in 2 consecutive races, it is pretty suspicious.
Re: Re:
7th course time. 9th cumulative time.
Edit: also rookie of the year 2017 being 19.
http://www.biathlonworld.com/news/detail/swedish-sweep-rookie-awards-to-hanna-oberg-and-sebastian-samuelsson
Real surprise but quite lucky that most of the favourites performed like horses as..s.Mayomaniac said:
7th course time. 9th cumulative time.
Edit: also rookie of the year 2017 being 19.
http://www.biathlonworld.com/news/detail/swedish-sweep-rookie-awards-to-hanna-oberg-and-sebastian-samuelsson
Not really commenting on wether or not the Norwegian team brought the right amount of asthma medication or not, but Kenacort and Celestone is pretty basic medication that every countries medical team have at their disposal. Celestone is an injectable steroid usually reserved for local treatment of painful joints and tendons. Kenacort is mostly used for long term allergy prevention (in my experience). It would be very strange not to bring it to an athletic competition, almost negligent by any team doctor. Labeling these staple drugs as “monster drugs” or that “it should not happen!” is severely poisoning the well. It’s how you use them, which is what WADA tries to control.
So please turn down the hyperbole a few notches and research a bit before drawing conclusions.
So please turn down the hyperbole a few notches and research a bit before drawing conclusions.
Re:
I agree on the medical need, but those drugs are also PED's.
So the best and cleanest for everyone would allow those only via public TUE with i.e. 5 days ban from competition after taking it. Would be much more fair than any current TUE misuse.
Oude Geuze said:
I agree on the medical need, but those drugs are also PED's.
So the best and cleanest for everyone would allow those only via public TUE with i.e. 5 days ban from competition after taking it. Would be much more fair than any current TUE misuse.
Re: Re:
I smell hypocrisy...
What are you talking about? 3rd and 1st course time at olympics so far. Compare that to his previous sprint and pursuite course time this season.Discgear said:
I smell hypocrisy...
Re:
So read properly before making conclusions.
Nobody ciriticized bringing it to the competition. You've missed the point completely. You've snothing knew; everybody here knows it's useful medication. Wha we are criticizing is retropactive TUE based on the athletes decision and using in in the competition, because it's not only medication, but PED too.Oude Geuze said:
So read properly before making conclusions.
Kokoso, you're correct about Samuelsson. My bad. Didn't notice all the columns of the data sheet viewing it on the mobile. Troubling.
@Kokoso: Discgear, wrote: “The heat is on. Norwegian TV reveals that the Norwegian medical team has brought – apart from a truckload of asthma medication earlier mentioned – the dynamite drugs Kenacort and Celeston to the Olympics.”
Amongst others if you “read properly”
Amongst others if you “read properly”
Re:
...however, on the list there are substances that have a far greater performance-enhancing effect than asthma medicin.
Kenacort and Celeston are two of them.
And your point is?
Yes. Kenacort and Celeston are the performance enhancing drugs mentioned.Oude Geuze said:Discgear, quote: “The heat is on. Norwegian TV reveals that the Norwegian medical team has brought – apart from a truckload of asthma medication earlier mentioned – the dynamite drugs Kenacort and Celeston to the Olympics.”
Amongst others if you “read properly”
translated:
...however, on the list there are substances that have a far greater performance-enhancing effect than asthma medicin.
Kenacort and Celeston are two of them.
And your point is?
Re:
What we are criticizing is retroactive TUE based on the athletes decision and using in in the competition, because it's not only medication, but PED too.
So read properly before making conclusions. You seem not bothering understanding what others have written at all. This time you've decided not to react at the point at all, ridiculous.
I know Dicgear wrote that; so again - nobody ciriticized bringing it to the competition. You've missed the point completely. You've wrote nothing knew; everybody here knows it's useful medication. Even Discgear wrote this: "Celeston is normally just used for tendons, bursals and joints."Oude Geuze said:@Kokoso: Discgear, wrote: “The heat is on. Norwegian TV reveals that the Norwegian medical team has brought – apart from a truckload of asthma medication earlier mentioned – the dynamite drugs Kenacort and Celeston to the Olympics.”
Amongst others if you “read properly”
What we are criticizing is retroactive TUE based on the athletes decision and using in in the competition, because it's not only medication, but PED too.
So read properly before making conclusions. You seem not bothering understanding what others have written at all. This time you've decided not to react at the point at all, ridiculous.
Re:
Some hours ago, there was a follow up article by Norwegian television. https://www.tv2.no/a/9678376 They asked Monica Kjeldsberg from Olympiatoppen, head of the Norwegian Medical team:
Have any athletes had TUEs to use the drugs [Kenacort and Celeston] in competition, either in these games or former competitions? We are not asking for names.
She answered that she can’t answer due to professional secrecy.
On a direct question from TV2, The Norwegian Directorate of Health answers that professional secrecy is no obstacle when there’s no possibility to identify single athletes.
Since there is over 100 athletes in this troop, and in addition many hundred more included in the questions “former competition”, its not possible to identify single athletes.
To be continued….
Part III:Discgear said:
Some hours ago, there was a follow up article by Norwegian television. https://www.tv2.no/a/9678376 They asked Monica Kjeldsberg from Olympiatoppen, head of the Norwegian Medical team:
Have any athletes had TUEs to use the drugs [Kenacort and Celeston] in competition, either in these games or former competitions? We are not asking for names.
She answered that she can’t answer due to professional secrecy.
On a direct question from TV2, The Norwegian Directorate of Health answers that professional secrecy is no obstacle when there’s no possibility to identify single athletes.
Since there is over 100 athletes in this troop, and in addition many hundred more included in the questions “former competition”, its not possible to identify single athletes.
To be continued….
Re: Re:
you think journos will start asking questions about this apparent contradiction between those two statements?
also, any news on the swedish skiers with dubious blood values?
thanks for the info.Discgear said:
you think journos will start asking questions about this apparent contradiction between those two statements?
also, any news on the swedish skiers with dubious blood values?
Not any new info bout the two Swedish skiers. In my opinion it concerns two skiers now active in the Ski Classics. The chart in the documentary indicated the 2003 WC. JB was triple bronze medalist.
Whatever asthma the swedish biathletes got on the flight to South Korea, I want it too. I can't be the only one who finds these results a tiny bit suspicious
Re: Re:
Hilarious
Kokoso said:I know Dicgear wrote that; so again - nobody ciriticized bringing it to the competition. You've missed the point completely. You've wrote nothing knew; everybody here knows it's useful medication. Even Discgear wrote this: "Celeston is normally just used for tendons, bursals and joints."Oude Geuze said:@Kokoso: Discgear, wrote: “The heat is on. Norwegian TV reveals that the Norwegian medical team has brought – apart from a truckload of asthma medication earlier mentioned – the dynamite drugs Kenacort and Celeston to the Olympics.”
Amongst others if you “read properly”
What we are criticizing is retroactive TUE based on the athletes decision and using in in the competition, because it's not only medication, but PED too.
So read properly before making conclusions. You seem not bothering understanding what others have written at all. This time you've decided not to react at the point at all, ridiculous.
Hilarious
Oeberg to me still looks human. I'm becoming a fan. Her skis were the stuff of dreams obviously.
Haga, a bit much form suddenly.
Kruger, same. Not a slow race to catch back up with to dominate.
Samuelson, very much so.
Olsbu, also.
Kuzmina, a bit too good even for even her outstanding track record this season. Muelegg like?
To a lesser degree, Cologna. At least he looks Federer-good.
Dahlmeier, Domracheva, Makarainen, seem more human than usual actually. Extra controls leading up to or during the games?
The way JT Boe and M Fourcade now basically share the ski talent of all the men's biathlon field, is not comfortable to me, at all. It's OK when they dominate everyone like that, but not when a Russian comes to within 2 minutes of them once in a while?
Fak may be a bit too good at peaking. Edited to add that his season started well.
Haga, a bit much form suddenly.
Kruger, same. Not a slow race to catch back up with to dominate.
Samuelson, very much so.
Olsbu, also.
Kuzmina, a bit too good even for even her outstanding track record this season. Muelegg like?
To a lesser degree, Cologna. At least he looks Federer-good.
Dahlmeier, Domracheva, Makarainen, seem more human than usual actually. Extra controls leading up to or during the games?
The way JT Boe and M Fourcade now basically share the ski talent of all the men's biathlon field, is not comfortable to me, at all. It's OK when they dominate everyone like that, but not when a Russian comes to within 2 minutes of them once in a while?
Fak may be a bit too good at peaking. Edited to add that his season started well.
Dahlmeier was actually rather mediocre until January. And none of the above has been in dominating form this year.Cloxxki said:
Ok, Mäkäräinen maybe occasionally, but she is getting old and inconsistent. Anyway, I would argue her ski speed has always been human in championships. She slows down or others peak better? I think the latter.
Yes, I know that her coach prepared Manuela Di Centa and the other Italians very well in the 1990s.
I don't think Olsbu is suspicious. She's just skiing solidly and has her standing shoot working nicely this year.
Eckhoff is the Norwegian who suddenly found some form in the last event before the Olympics and is the fastest after Kuzmina. Though to be fair to her, she's always fast, its just a question of when she can hit the targets.
Eckhoff is the Norwegian who suddenly found some form in the last event before the Olympics and is the fastest after Kuzmina. Though to be fair to her, she's always fast, its just a question of when she can hit the targets.
Yea, Eckhoff has been fast for five seasons now, she was putting in good ski times in December, just shooting badly, and even here, she didn't shoot well in the pursuit but gained several places. With Olsbu I've never quite got over how she suddenly became significantly faster at the home World Championships in Holmenkollen two years ago - she'd been one of those "can potentially contend for the flower ceremony with 19 or 20/20 in a pursuit after a decent sprint, or in an Individual" kind of athletes and then suddenly at those World Championships she could hold off people like Dahlmeier, Dorin Habert and Koukalová on a final lap charge. But I've got used to her being at that level and she was pretty good early in the season.
Kuzmina's year in general I think has been very weird, she was never this fast in peak years even, although it's harder to judge her on equal terms because Domracheva's had almost two years out in the middle of this period (I know, so has Nastya) and Kaisa is the only woman at the forefront of proceedings older than her, and she is getting less consistent now. But Kuzmina has been making people like Denise Herrmann look distinctly average on the skis. The fact that she has this career where she disappears for years at a time for childbirth and other commitments, but always has great form in Olympic seasons, is obviously going to raise a lot of eyebrows. It's not like she's super-peaked for the championships though, but whether that makes it better or worse I don't know, since obviously it's like a bell curve - if you're way above your normal level only at major championships you're an outlier at one end, but if you're one of the best in every single race all season without having any weaker periods, like a Fourcade or Tora Berger a few years ago, then you're an outlier at the other.
Conspicuously absent, however, have been the Americans. They peaked so beautifully for the World Championships last season with Lowell Bailey getting his first career win in the Individual and Susan Dunklee getting a podium in the Mass Start as well. Here, however, the only time I've even heard them mentioned was when the IBU decided at their special committee meeting that they aren't going to cancel the Russian rounds of the World and IBU Cup at Tyumen, Uvat' and Khanty-Mansiysk, and Bailey and Dunklee both whined in the press about it and how they were going to boycott the rounds because they couldn't trust the IBU to be anti-doping unless they prevent any Russian fans getting to see competitions.
Kuzmina's year in general I think has been very weird, she was never this fast in peak years even, although it's harder to judge her on equal terms because Domracheva's had almost two years out in the middle of this period (I know, so has Nastya) and Kaisa is the only woman at the forefront of proceedings older than her, and she is getting less consistent now. But Kuzmina has been making people like Denise Herrmann look distinctly average on the skis. The fact that she has this career where she disappears for years at a time for childbirth and other commitments, but always has great form in Olympic seasons, is obviously going to raise a lot of eyebrows. It's not like she's super-peaked for the championships though, but whether that makes it better or worse I don't know, since obviously it's like a bell curve - if you're way above your normal level only at major championships you're an outlier at one end, but if you're one of the best in every single race all season without having any weaker periods, like a Fourcade or Tora Berger a few years ago, then you're an outlier at the other.
Conspicuously absent, however, have been the Americans. They peaked so beautifully for the World Championships last season with Lowell Bailey getting his first career win in the Individual and Susan Dunklee getting a podium in the Mass Start as well. Here, however, the only time I've even heard them mentioned was when the IBU decided at their special committee meeting that they aren't going to cancel the Russian rounds of the World and IBU Cup at Tyumen, Uvat' and Khanty-Mansiysk, and Bailey and Dunklee both whined in the press about it and how they were going to boycott the rounds because they couldn't trust the IBU to be anti-doping unless they prevent any Russian fans getting to see competitions.
I agree on the Americans. Suspect in a way to peak so badly. Is Diggins the only non-mediocre one left?
While Russia managed to field a strong team on youngsters for the XC men, I don't feel they're more suspect than others. They're a very large skiing nation, and were kind of due for a new generation anyway. The way Klaebo and still Bjoergen ski, anyone who calls out a Russian for being shady is just using double standards. Easy to forget that Sundby had some results taken for taking horse dosages of Salbutamol even without a TUE (the only prime Norwegian to not have one....?) and Johaug missing these Olympics for, well, insulting everyone's intelligence.
Kuzmina is most shady to me alongside Fourcade, JT Boe and Cologna. In Central Europe more is possible than in other places. She is a mother of two now an skiing better than ever. She was really good before, but not dominant like a Neuner or Domracheva at peak. Now, she is.
The fact that Makarainen is hardly ever far outside the fastest doesn't get her a pass from me, espcially the way she choses her helpers. How many trainers do we know who have actually convincingly gone clean after doping the ehck out of athletes? Is it so hard to find a trainer that can offer good insight or encouragement without them having had doped athletes ruin the sport for competitors, spectactors and even politicians?
I have little hope in my heart that within 3% of the fastest skiers these Games we have a truly clean athlete. And to be clear: even if Sundby never takes a single inhale/injection of Salbutamol again, I will never consider him clean again. The bdy changes from those dope levels. Forever.
If the likes of Kuzmina and Fourcade were to be clean, would doping even be worth the effort? But we know it helps humongously, even with today's bio passport and out of competition tests.
While Russia managed to field a strong team on youngsters for the XC men, I don't feel they're more suspect than others. They're a very large skiing nation, and were kind of due for a new generation anyway. The way Klaebo and still Bjoergen ski, anyone who calls out a Russian for being shady is just using double standards. Easy to forget that Sundby had some results taken for taking horse dosages of Salbutamol even without a TUE (the only prime Norwegian to not have one....?) and Johaug missing these Olympics for, well, insulting everyone's intelligence.
Kuzmina is most shady to me alongside Fourcade, JT Boe and Cologna. In Central Europe more is possible than in other places. She is a mother of two now an skiing better than ever. She was really good before, but not dominant like a Neuner or Domracheva at peak. Now, she is.
The fact that Makarainen is hardly ever far outside the fastest doesn't get her a pass from me, espcially the way she choses her helpers. How many trainers do we know who have actually convincingly gone clean after doping the ehck out of athletes? Is it so hard to find a trainer that can offer good insight or encouragement without them having had doped athletes ruin the sport for competitors, spectactors and even politicians?
I have little hope in my heart that within 3% of the fastest skiers these Games we have a truly clean athlete. And to be clear: even if Sundby never takes a single inhale/injection of Salbutamol again, I will never consider him clean again. The bdy changes from those dope levels. Forever.
If the likes of Kuzmina and Fourcade were to be clean, would doping even be worth the effort? But we know it helps humongously, even with today's bio passport and out of competition tests.
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