Doping raid Operación Galgo: Fuentes Caught...again

[The Hitch]

Here is a long long article about Galgo and history of doping in spain.

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/domingo/Parad/galgos/elppor/20101219elpdmg_2/Tes

They say the police used some pretty impressive techniques.

One thing i dont get, is that for the Aitor Gonzalez profile, they say

ganó la Vuelta a España en 2002, siete etapas entre las cuatro grandes Vueltas

Whats the 4th? TDS or misprint?

 

[The Hitch]

Oh and this article is brilliant.

http://www.diariodenavarra.es/20101...101219&seccion=tudela&seccion2=tudela&chnl=10

I think its gonna be some sort of debate which i would love to see but the article will do just fine for now.


As far as the forum goes, its a shame all the best ones are coming out in Spanish. Maybe their not the worst doping country after all

Personally i definately can not envision the press being half as open about the issue as the Spanish press has been since Galgo.

A few quotes accompanied by my weak translations

Cada día le exigimos más, pero a la vez pedimos que sean limpios y no se dopen. En esto radica el cinismo del deporte', afirmó.

We expect more from them everyday but we want them to be clean. This is cynisism and its taking root. He says.

Alberto Cebollada achacó esta práctica a la 'excesiva exigencia y presión mediática a la que están sometidos los deportistas de élite'

He says athletes dope because of the extreme pressure they are put under.

La atleta Estela Navascués afirmó que es relativamente fácil acceder a sustancias ilegales.

She says its quite easy to gain access to illegal substances

They also say that doping is widespread at lower levels as well, that they know amateurs with a wide knowledge about doping,

Conclusion, its widespread and its unrealistic to expect top athletes to be clean in this sporting enviroment.

 

[Escarabajo]

Here is a long long article about Galgo and history of doping in spain.

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/domingo/Parad/galgos/elppor/20101219elpdmg_2/Tes

...

Good info Hitch. Thanks.

 

[sniper]

[Quote/] The Hitch

As far as the forum goes, its a shame all the best ones are coming out in Spanish. Maybe their not the worst doping country after all

Personally i definately can not envision the press being half as open about the issue as the Spanish press has been since Galgo.[Quote/]

The German press really beats the Spanish by some distance, when it comes to analyzing and (if necessary) questioning (anti-)doping practices.
The Sueddeutsche Zeitung from last friday, for instance, published this very interesting interview (unfortunately not available online) with Guillermo Jiménez, head of the Madrid Athletics Federation, in which he criticizes Odriozola's role in Galgo as well as the Spanish uncritical approach to doping matters (discussed in plenty in this forum):
"In Spain, when a foreigner dopes, he's thought of as a criminal, but when a Spaniard is caught, you feel the willingness among the people to be solidary with him".
Also, Jiménez speaks of the threats he received from higher up when he stuck his nose a little too deep into the Puerto-case.
Now, please note that the Spanish press prefers to publish interviews with Odriozola, who himself was to some extent responsible for Galgo-gate (by appointing both Pascua and Dominguez), but refuses to stand down. Jiménez really isn't heard in Spanish press.

 

[The Hitch]

[Quote/] The Hitch

As far as the forum goes, its a shame all the best ones are coming out in Spanish. Maybe their not the worst doping country after all

Personally i definately can not envision the press being half as open about the issue as the Spanish press has been since Galgo.[Quote/]

The German press really beats the Spanish by some distance, when it comes to analyzing and (if necessary) questioning (anti-)doping practices.

As is probably clear to many by now, i am upset about the reputation cycling( and 1 or 2 other sports) gets as THE (definate article) dirty sport, and others get let off.

In Spain there has been talk about the ultra rich gods of sport -eg tennis, football, f1, basketaball.

SO i havent read much from the German press but have they been talking about how its possible that so called skill sports might also be involved? Or is it just big bad cycling, athletics, swimming etc? You know, the sports with the bad guys.

 

[euanli]

I know for a fact that some UK sporting journalists (the ones that don't cover cycling) are well aware of doping in the sport they report on but chose not to report or investigate it.

They know which clubs are doing it and what they are doing.

 

[The Hitch]

I know for a fact that some UK sporting journalists (the ones that don't cover cycling) are well aware of doping in the sport they report on but chose not to report or investigate it.

They know which clubs are doing it and what they are doing.

Interesting info. I believe you 100% of course. But out of interest (if you can say) did you find this out by talking with higher ups, seeing it, or by hearing it from others?

 

[euanli]

I got it from one particular journalist I was speaking to the other week, I had no interest in discussing doping but a third party in the conversation brought up Rio Ferdinand's ban from missing a drugs test. Got a brief description of how they usually beat the tests, which actually sounded like players were getting advance notice of tests. Apparently Rio had forgotten something, but it wasn't the test. It was his clean urine.

We were then informed that some clubs have systematic doping for all their players. No names were mentioned but hints were given. It was this point I mentioned Fuentes and Operation Greyhound and I was told they were well aware of the implications. It just comes down to not wanting to **** in their own soup.

What surprises me, is given the heavy boozing and partying that footballers in the UK do there stories don't seem to come out. Unless they do and Max Clifford stops them, or the press just don't want to report it.

Seems to me anyway that doping in football has been an open secret for a long time. Messi's HGH treatment at Barcelona and all the players going to foreign countries for special injury treatments.

 

[keen_but_slow]

If you can find it, get a list of Rio's phone calls between being notified of the test and eventually volounteering to take it. "Interesting", to say the least. Seemed to suggest a heavy Saturday on the marching powder rather than anything else, which would mean a proper hairdyer from Fergie.

Arsene Wenger said years ago that he was seeing unusual blood values on players signed from Spain that calmed down once they joined the gooners.

 

[Frosty]

What surprises me, is given the heavy boozing and partying that footballers in the UK do there stories don't seem to come out. Unless they do and Max Clifford stops them, or the press just don't want to report it.

Yeah ive wondered that too. Even supposing that all the journo's were in on the secret - and you'd have thought that at least someone would try to break ranks - then you'd have thought that it might be a bit better known amongst some parts of the public. Then again maybe no-one asks, guess most people wouldn't really think about it.

 

[Cloxxki]

Do the Spanish police, as does general public, now consider doping athletes to be criminals? I know of one involved in this Operacion that went right back home after Euro Cross Champs in Portugal, soon to be crowned female atlete of the year in her home town.
BTW, is that a standard procedure? Didn't Contador get some over the top press reception recently after being implicated for clenbuterol and blooddoping?

 

[sniper]

Do the Spanish police, as does general public, now consider doping athletes to be criminals? I know of one involved in this Operacion that went right back home after Euro Cross Champs in Portugal, soon to be crowned female atlete of the year in her home town.
BTW, is that a standard procedure? Didn't Contador get some over the top press reception recently after being implicated for clenbuterol and blooddoping?

+1
There is this strong tendency among the Spanish to solidarize with their athletes when these are implicated in doping affaires.
There was this great interview with Guillermo Jiménez (director of the Madrid Athletics Federation) recently in the Sueddeutsche Zeitung in which he criticizes this Spanish mindset.

 

[Paco_P]

Do the Spanish police, as does general public, now consider doping athletes to be criminals? I know of one involved in this Operacion that went right back home after Euro Cross Champs in Portugal, soon to be crowned female atlete of the year in her home town.
BTW, is that a standard procedure? Didn't Contador get some over the top press reception recently after being implicated for clenbuterol and blooddoping?

Actually, Marta Dominguez is getting pretty well clobbered in the Spanish media. Folks high up somewhere feel betrayed, and the people that own the newspapers/tv don't have any financial stake in her success (as they do, say, in Real Madrid).

 

[sniper]

PACO_P: Actually, Marta Dominguez is getting pretty well clobbered in the Spanish media. Folks high up somewhere feel betrayed, and the people that own the newspapers/tv don't have any financial stake in her success (as they do, say, in Real Madrid).

Interesting point

 

[hrotha]

Actually, Marta Dominguez is getting pretty well clobbered in the Spanish media. Folks high up somewhere feel betrayed, and the people that own the newspapers/tv don't have any financial stake in her success (as they do, say, in Real Madrid).

Yes, but she still has her hometown organizing stuff to show their public support.

At least this time it's only her hometown and one or two people who are the most casual of fans and really don't have a clue, so I guess it's an improvement.

 

[Cloxxki]

It's interesting that Spain in general seems to be sacrifycing her. This makes me a little (a little) uncertain as to her guilt. Athletes who deny, in the long run, seldomly get to keep that up. Proof surfaces, or they just break down and admit. Despite that, they nearly all deny with passion.
Anyone, let's keep a count for over the top celebrations of atletes implicated or at least named in Galgo. Marta and Adrienne we already have.

 

[theswordsman]

Manuel Pasca has talked, and explained his notation system.

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/depo...tas/entreno/elpepudep/20101230elpepudep_1/Tes

This next bit is off topic, and probably old news for some of you, but Tuttobiciweb repeated it this morning. It's from an anonymous pro rider who gave details of doping practices. The parts that I'd never heard before were about how the pharmacists and hospital nurses came up with the PED's. At pharmacies they would alter legitimate prescriptions from legitimate patients so that they could account for dispensing higher amounts of EPO or whatever. Some would also claim the higher amounts for insurance , so they'd make money twice, once overcharging insurers or the government, and again selling the stuff on the black market. The details about the hospitals was worse, as nurses are diluting doses of EPO or whatever given to actual patients so they can sell the rest to athletes. So it's probable that patients didn't get better, or took longer to get better, because they weren't getting the required dosage. That to me should remove talk of doping being a victimless crime. I won't stretch it to the possibility that cancer patients might have had their treatment impaired because some cyclist over the years used their EPO. That would be something.

http://www.tuttobiciweb.it/index.php?page=news&cod=35105&tp=n

 

[BotanyBay]

Manuel Pasca has talked, and explained his notation system.

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/depo...tas/entreno/elpepudep/20101230elpepudep_1/Tes

This next bit is off topic, and probably old news for some of you, but Tuttobiciweb repeated it this morning. It's from an anonymous pro rider who gave details of doping practices. The parts that I'd never heard before were about how the pharmacists and hospital nurses came up with the PED's. At pharmacies they would alter legitimate prescriptions from legitimate patients so that they could account for dispensing higher amounts of EPO or whatever. Some would also claim the higher amounts for insurance , so they'd make money twice, once overcharging insurers or the government, and again selling the stuff on the black market. The details about the hospitals was worse, as nurses are diluting doses of EPO or whatever given to actual patients so they can sell the rest to athletes. So it's probable that patients didn't get better, or took longer to get better, because they weren't getting the required dosage. That to me should remove talk of doping being a victimless crime. I won't stretch it to the possibility that cancer patients might have had their treatment impaired because some cyclist over the years used their EPO. That would be something.

http://www.tuttobiciweb.it/index.php?page=news&cod=35105&tp=n

In regards to the "I won't stretch" part, why not? We already know what lengths a cyclist will go to get the EPO. But now think about the supply chain. We've not had much info on that side, but consider this:

EPO is a tightly controlled drug. When a box of this stuff simply goes missing, it is absolutely NOTICED somewhere in the chain of custody. But if we know that we have pharmacists and nurses involved in the fraud, then yes, I'm willing to assume that they are indeed stealing it right out of the vial and then replacing it with saline (or something else)... which means that cancer and dialysis patients are getting watered-down drugs.

So, to go a step further, a rider like Armstrong, if he is not intimately aware of where each drop of EPO came from, may very well have been robbing cancer patients of THEIR LIVES so that he can pedal a bike a bit harder and faster. Lance would be a ghoul.

 

[sniper]

veeeery interesting. I agree with both the swordsman and BB's added comments.
It's not farfetched to assume that this chain of supply is exactly what Novitzky's got under his magnifying glas...
the disclosure in 2011 may be more spectacular than we can imagine, and may indeed take on, or surpass, Balco-proportions.

 

[BotanyBay]

veeeery interesting. I agree with both the swordsman and BB's added comments.
It's not farfetched to assume that this chain of supply is exactly what Novitzky's got under his magnifying glas...
the disclosure in 2011 may be more spectacular than we can imagine, and may indeed take on, or surpass, Balco-proportions.

Lemond said it would be the greatest fraud (if true). I think that it goes beyond that. It's an organized system that could very well be robbing people of their lives, so how damn ironic that he goes further and starts a cancer foundation.

So if people want to know why I'm so damn ****ed, I personally wonder if any of my own relative's supply was tapped to supply does to athletes.

 

[D-Queued]

Is it possible that the SI article got moved so it could include a reference to this latest insight.

Yes, this is pure speculation. But, the timing is interesting.

Dave.

 

[lean mean &green]

i'm certainly not defending armstrong but my guess is he gets a drug like EPO another way. that doesn't erase the fact that he's contributing to the arms race and to a system that has in some instances taken advantage of people with a legitimate prescription for a legitimate need.

 

[Beech Mtn]

The part about the nurses and pharmacists replacing patients' medications with placebos and selling the dope on the black market to athletes really should be in its own thread. It's not part of Galgo, but part of the confessions of a former pro Italian rider, right?

 

[Fester]

Why are people linking this with Armstrong? It's completely irrelevant! He hasn't been linked with this. Next he'll be accused of war crimes and sodomy.

What the guy said also is a re hash of information we have heard over and over about cycling in the 90's.

What was interesting was that he said things started in Athletics, then went to Football and then Cycling. The Repoxygen thing a few years back would have me believe that actually.

In terms of supply chain, I imagine on limited amounts come via the stated method. The are literally hundreds of different epo's manufactured world wide, and I bet there are clandestine laboratories pumping the stuff out.Lets not forget BALCO had designer drugs. What they may have here is a net full of small fry.

It doesn't change the fact that corrupt officials are in place in sport. They need to be removed before it's cleaned up. One way or another people find ways to manipulate the outcome of sporting events in a non sporting manner.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Interesting article on Dominguez

IAAF Long Suspicious of Marta Domínguez

There are times when being too perfect, and too consistent, raises red flags. This is what happened with Marta Domínguez, in the opinion of the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF), whose antidoping experts have for years seen in Domínguez's blood profile too much correctness, and far too little variation.

I wonder how little variation is too little variation? And how does one achieve this? I guess consistently micro-dosing EPO could prohibit drops in RBC mass but what about natural variation in plasma volume?

The IAAF's suspicions weren't solely due to the predictable chart that could be traced from Domínguez's hematocrit values over the course of years, which were always the same and predicable and well within permitted limits. Rather, these suspicious also came out of the fact that even before the 2008 Beijing Olympics, the IAAF had received warning from the Spanish Federation that Domínguez had begun working with César Pérez, the hurdling coach who has since been charged in Operation Greyhound.

Doesn't this contradict the previous paragraph? It sounds to me like there were notable variations, but they always followed the same suspicious pattern, year after year.

It's also noteworthy that the evil spaniards warned the IAAF about Marta working with a dodgy coach...

Despite the fact the IAAF has not yet begun using biological passports, which would permit the organization to sanction athletes based on indirect evidence alone (and without the need to have a positive drug test), antidoping agents are already all too familiar with the various methods athletes use to cheat the system. This sophisticated cheating leads to the sort of excessive “correctness” that in the end focused their attention on Domínguez. Such deceptive methods involve using EPO in small doses following a stay at altitude, and coupling this with an antidiuretic hormone. This hormone, which, while normally used to treat incontinence and bed-wetting, does leave the following trace: an increased volume of red blood cells. This effect, consequently, has been observed in the profiles of a number of suspicious athletes.

Anyone care to explain how using EPO in small doses following a stay at altitude in combination with an antidiuretic hormone which increases rbc volume visibly in crit tests leads to excessive correctness in ones hematological profile? And why combine EPO with an "antidiuretic hormone" which does the same thing EPO does? And what antidiuretic hormone stimulates rbc production?

I can see how altitude training could be used as an excuse for an increase in hematocrit.

http://www.letsrun.com/2010/marta-1223.php