Doping raid Operación Galgo: Fuentes Caught...again

[lean mean &green]

Anyone care to explain how using EPO in small doses following a stay at altitude in combination with an antidiuretic hormone which increases rbc volume visibly in crit tests leads to excessive correctness in ones hematological profile? And why combine EPO with an "antidiuretic hormone" which does the same thing EPO does? And what antidiuretic hormone stimulates rbc production?

I can see how altitude training could be used as an excuse for an increase in hematocrit.

http://www.letsrun.com/2010/marta-1223.php

an anti-diuretic would have the effect of keeping plasma levels high by slowing the production of urine. that would mask the higher than natural red blood cell volume by keeping hematocrit (the percentage of blood that is RBC's) steady. lastly, a high hematocrit isn't everything - it isn't even likely to be performance enhancing if the total blood volume is low. total RBC mass is more important to performance.

it sounds like she used an anti-diuretic, EPO, who knows what else, and went to altitude to mask the changes. there should be natural variations in a profile with values like hematocrit that weren't observed. makes perfect sense to me.

EDIT: you may be confusing diuretic and anti-diuretic effects

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

an anti-diuretic would have the effect of keeping plasma levels high by slowing the production of urine. that would mask the higher than natural red blood cell volume by keeping hematocrit (the percentage of blood that is RBC's) steady. lastly, a high hematocrit isn't everything - it isn't even likely to be performance enhancing if the total blood volume is low. total RBC mass is more important to performance.

Did you read the article? It says this anti-diuretic hormone increases "rbc volume", not plasma volume and that this effect has been "observed in the profiles of a number of suspicious athletes".

This sophisticated cheating leads to the sort of excessive “correctness” that in the end focused their attention on Domínguez. Such deceptive methods involve using EPO in small doses following a stay at altitude, and coupling this with an antidiuretic hormone. This hormone, which, while normally used to treat incontinence and bed-wetting, does leave the following trace: an increased volume of red blood cells. This effect, consequently, has been observed in the profiles of a number of suspicious athletes.

This is kinda confusing...

an anti-diuretic would have the effect of keeping plasma levels high by slowing the production of urine. that would mask the higher than natural red blood cell volume by keeping hematocrit (the percentage of blood that is RBC's) steady

Okay, so the anti-diuretic keeps crit steady inspite of the increased RBC mass due to EPO use. Makes perfect sense and I'm with you so far.

it sounds like she used an anti-diuretic, EPO, who knows what else, and went to altitude to mask the changes.

Whoah! Wait a minute! She went to altitude to mask the changes? Wasn't that the point of the anti-diuretic? To keep crit steady so there aren't any changes? Now she has the go to altitude to mask changes that have already been masked? And how exactly could altitude mask changes in hematocrit? Doesn't altitude training raise hematocrit?

 

[lean mean &green]

Did you read the article? It says this anti-diuretic hormone increases "rbc volume", not plasma volume and that this effect has been "observed in the profiles of a number of suspicious athletes".

it's true, an increase in ADH will stimulate the release of EPO.

i think this is an unintended consequence of the PED user tho. they're mostly taking ADH to increase plasma volume. they're attempting to manipulate hematocrit without realizing it's effect on EPO release. in other words, a fairly logical attempt to mask EPO is backfiring slightly.

 

[lean mean &green]

Whoah! Wait a minute! She went to altitude to mask the changes? Wasn't that the point of the anti-diuretic? To keep crit steady so there aren't any changes? Now she has the go to altitude to mask changes that have already been masked? And how exactly could altitude mask changes in hematocrit? Doesn't altitude training raise hematocrit?

this is opinion but i'd hardly say it's going out on a limb. a wannabe PED user might train at elevation in order to increase RBC production naturally AND artificially. upon returning, changes in hematocrit for instance, will be explained away as merely a natural adaptation to altitude. altitude training can obscure or mask what might be the result of PED use.

EDIT: to really get everything out of altitude training you must live high and train low. this is an enormous pain in the tookus. i think some are really trying it legitimately but for others it's part of a smokescreen.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Whoah! Wait a minute! She went to altitude to mask the changes? Wasn't that the point of the anti-diuretic? To keep crit steady so there aren't any changes? Now she has the go to altitude to mask changes that have already been masked? And how exactly could altitude mask changes in hematocrit? Doesn't altitude training raise hematocrit?

Basically, she goes to altitude to explain part of the increase in RBC volume, she takes anti-diuretics to lower her hematocrit which mask the rest of the increase in RBC.....because the increase is so big it could only be caused by EPO or transfusion.

I speculate that the part of her profile that's too normal is the reticulocyte count. Normally retics will drop off a bit after an athlete returns from altitude, so their RBC volume will gradually drop back to the usual level for them. (The same way that retics drop off after a transfusion....which gets you in trouble with your off-score if you haven't been at altitude). Micro-dosing EPO would prevent the retics from dropping off like they should after altitude.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

it's true, an increase in ADH will stimulate the release of EPO.

and therefore stimulate retic production? Do you know if this is purely because ADH increases plasma volume, or if there is some other mechanism?

To add some context, I recall reading a very garbled article about a talk given by Alan Lim. The article seemed to say that he was claiming repeated rounds of dehydration and post training sauna increased plasma volumes, which subsequently stimulated the release of EPO and raised RBCs.

The idea that hard training, dehydration and sauna would lead to increased plasma volume seemed very plausible. I was much more skeptical of the related increase in RBCs and could find little to support the assertion (that I understood anyway ).....but maybe it really does work??

i think this is an unintended consequence of the PED user tho. they're mostly taking ADH to increase plasma volume. they're attempting to manipulate hematocrit without realizing it's effect on EPO release. in other words, a fairly logical attempt to mask EPO is backfiring slightly.

Hmm. Well, if your crit is too high due to blood doping, comprehensive masking would involve both increasing plasma volume to decrease crit, and doing something else to bring your retic back up. Why bother with saline and EPO when you can just take an anti-diuretic that does both and doesn't seem to show up in the tests? It's possible she just overcooked blood transfusion masking rather than was clueless about masking EPO use....

 

[FKLance]

If you have not seen this, here is one study of the effects of sauna

http://www.ergo-log.com/eposauna.html

 

[lean mean &green]

and therefore stimulate retic production? Do you know if this is purely because ADH increases plasma volume, or if there is some other mechanism?

wow, tough questions. EPO should stimulate new red blood (reticulocytes). to answer your second question...as far as i can tell the answer is no. it is ADH acting directly on the avpr 1a receptor that stimulates EPO release. nothing to do with feedback from baroreceptors/chemoreceptors etc.

To add some context, I recall reading a very garbled article about a talk given by Alan Lim. The article seemed to say that he was claiming repeated rounds of dehydration and post training sauna increased plasma volumes, which subsequently stimulated the release of EPO and raised RBCs.

The idea that hard training, dehydration and sauna would lead to increased plasma volume seemed very plausible. I was much more skeptical of the related increase in RBCs and could find little to support the assertion (that I understood anyway ).....but maybe it really does work??

i'd really need his exact comments or a link before commenting but from what you've written it doesn't sound good. Lim's credibility ain't what it used to be with me.

Hmm. Well, if your crit is too high due to blood doping, comprehensive masking would involve both increasing plasma volume to decrease crit, and doing something else to bring your retic back up. Why bother with saline and EPO when you can just take an anti-diuretic that does both and doesn't seem to show up in the tests? It's possible she just overcooked blood transfusion masking rather than was clueless about masking EPO use....

i don't think ADH has nearly as powerful an effect on EPO release as simply taking EPO itself, not to mention the potential side effects of excessive use of ADH. i'm afraid you need to urinate - quite often actually. it sounds like ADH was only used to make small short term adjustments when controls seemed more likely to occur. you cannot substitute ADH for EPO.

not off topic but a new direction in this whole anti-doping mess: dominguez says she will take the suspension without much of a fuss and try and start a family. so i rhetorically ask... for a female athlete already looking to take a break from competition to have a child, does a 1 or 2 year suspension really qualify as a penalty or act as much of a deterrent? furthermore, she seems willing to play around with all this hormone manipulation a few months before trying to conceive? i think i've heard them all now!

 

[lean mean &green]

If you have not seen this, here is one study of the effects of sauna

http://www.ergo-log.com/eposauna.html

it's really no surprise that blood volumes respond to this type of stress. it's well understood that the body will adapt for the purposes of thermoregulation and even does so with seasonal weather changes (it could even be a confounding effect in this study).

i read the article and was able to view the abstract but i'm having trouble accessing the full research article. i'd like to read it before saying too much. i have a few concerns about the study design but i think it's a little dramatic to compare an estimated 1.9% improvement in performance within a sample size of 6 men to EPO use as the title indicates.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

.... EPO should stimulate new red blood (reticulocytes).

Yes, although IIRC altitude tents do stimulate EPO production but somehow don't lead to increased RBC....so I was wondering if the causal link has been tested for ADH and retic production.

to answer your second question...as far as i can tell the answer is no. it is ADH acting directly on the avpr 1a receptor that stimulates EPO release. nothing to do with feedback from baroreceptors/chemoreceptors etc.

OK, thanks.

i'd really need his exact comments or a link before commenting but from what you've written it doesn't sound good. Lim's credibility ain't what it used to be with me.

Actually the talk was not given by the now infamous Lim, but by a post doc working with him. Whoever wrote the article about the talk glossed over all the important details so it's a matter of guessing what was meant. It was linked by Krebs303 here.

If the "conclusion" in the article that FKLance linked has any merit (thanks FKL I hadn't seen it), it raises the possibility that ADH stimulates EPO production through two separate mechanisms. It's a big IF though; if you get a chance to look at the whole paper, I'd be interested to hear your opinion on it.

 

[Cloxxki]

Pascua is apparently also naming the ones adove any suspicion, among them Adrienne Herzog. Due to the stress of the soap her life has turned into, she's not starting in the famous Sylverster Cross in Holland today, she tweeted.
Not that she'd be any good there, if her coach himself was truthful to the police with regards to her doping plans. She'd be one bag of blood short, or even 2 already. Why would he falsely incriminate the little angel? she regards him as her Spnish father! good for her she left that evil country in time before the dreaded coach tried to blame her.

About starting a family for Dominguez...imagine being born late 2011, to that mom. You have atletic genes, and family heritage that draws you to use them, but you will also be raised by a sophiticated remorseless doper.

Are the athletes implicated in justicional trouble now? What about the non-Spanish?

I wonder if there will be investigations sufacing of cancer patients whose EPO treatments didn't seem to work as well as expected...oh the horror of dieing because Liestrong's comrads are buying your medicine from your nurse, to build their undeserved empires on?

But hey now, these superstars are microdosing their EPO now right, doesn't that make the logistics a smaller-volume operation? Or is just EVERYONE doing it, sucking Spain dry?

I wonder, while we're busy (again) with Fuentes and Matschiner, who's now doing the same work? Can't we find out places where atheletes are all to frequent visitors, when they have little to no business there?
Managers that see their new athlete clients perform better a month after joining forces? Managers/coaches are visible. And folks like Landis didn't even need help with their blood anymore?

 

[lean mean &green]

Yes, although IIRC altitude tents do stimulate EPO production but somehow don't lead to increased RBC....so I was wondering if the causal link has been tested for ADH and retic production.

simulating altitude can be done a number of different ways and i wouldn't go so far as to say they're all ineffective but we may be getting ahead of ourselves. i think that the relationship between ADH and EPO release may be coming off as overstated. it is not the primary way in which the body regulates oxygen homeostasis. the body's oxygen sensing mechanisms normally trigger the necessary adaptation. hypoxia (low oxygen) results in a release of HIF, EPO, the interaction of about 70 genes, increased availability of iron, etc etc. injections of ADH will trigger EPO release but it just seems like a small backdoor so to speak. it's not even well researched and i doubt that dominguez or her helpers even knew about it which is probably one of the ways they goofed up.

Actually the talk was not given by the now infamous Lim, but by a post doc working with him. Whoever wrote the article about the talk glossed over all the important details so it's a matter of guessing what was meant. It was linked by Krebs303 here.

If the "conclusion" in the article that FKLance linked has any merit (thanks FKL I hadn't seen it), it raises the possibility that ADH stimulates EPO production through two separate mechanisms. It's a big IF though; if you get a chance to look at the whole paper, I'd be interested to hear your opinion on it.

there's some interesting info here. while i agree that most widely available sports drinks are stuck in the dark ages i'm not ready to get behind the use of saunas for acclimatization following already dehydrating vigorous exercise. i'm VERY skeptical of Lim for obvious reasons and i'm probably more skeptical of Garmin than most. theoretically, often being dehydrated would mean that more ADH would be available and acting on receptors but i can't say how profound the effects would be. i honestly don't know.

 

[Señor_Contador]

It's interesting that Spain in general[...]

You know, instead of making huge, I repeat, HUGE, generalizations and making use of unadultered demagogy (which ought to be banned by the mods in my opinion)... wouldn't be better to say things like "seems as though many sectors of the Spanish sports media outlets" or "certain Spanish media outlets are saying"?

I mean, I know using "Spanish" explains many evil things to many simple-minded individuals, or at the very least prepares the groundwork when saying something about doping, kinda skewing the comment with a certain demagogic undertone. But know this: If you thing doping is a Spanish problem... you're in for a surprise. If you think Spanish cycling is going to take a huge dip downwards... you're in for a surprise. And, most of all, if you think Spanish sports successes are going to go away... Oh boy! Are you in for a surprise!!

 

[sniper]

You know, instead of making huge, I repeat, HUGE, generalizations and making use of unadultered demagogy (which ought to be banned by the mods in my opinion)... wouldn't be better to say things like "seems as though many sectors of the Spanish sports media outlets" or "certain Spanish media outlets are saying"?

I mean, I know using "Spanish" explains many evil things to many simple-minded individuals, or at the very least prepares the groundwork when saying something about doping, kinda skewing the comment with a certain demagogic undertone. But know this: If you thing doping is a Spanish problem... you're in for a surprise. If you think Spanish cycling is going to take a huge dip downwards... you're in for a surprise. And, most of all, if you think Spanish sports successes are going to go away... Oh boy! Are you in for a surprise!!

1. I hate to break it to ya, but AC won't race next year, so a dip it'll be. The question is whether they'll get out of that dip, i.e. if AC will return as the AC we know. Really, there's no Spanish rider ready to fill his shoes.

2. That attitude that you display right there seems so typical of the Spanish reception of the doping scandals. Why is that?
It's like saying:
"don't you dare to discredit Spanish sport/athletes or the sportive results of the last decade, inspite of the fact that we've been involved in one dope-scandal after the other". I don't think this attitude is in anyway helping Spanish sports/athletes to regain respect and trust.

If you think Spanish sports/athletes and corresponding results of the last decade(s) aren't tarnished by the recent doping scandals: you're in for a surprise.

EDIT: I do definitely agree with you that, probably, many of the outstanding results of Spanish sports in the last years have been obtained in a clean and honest manner. I'm just trying to inform you that these sentiments of aggrievement are not in any way supportive of improving the reputation of your athletes.

 

[Merckx index]

I'm guessing the sauna effect is mediated by a temporary reduction in HT (because of increased plasma volume), which stimulates production of more red cells to raise the HT back to original levels. The same HT with a larger plasma volume means more total red cell mass. This interpretation is supported by the data in that brief report, which indicate that HT was constant within error (though slightly less in the sauna subjects).

I had never heard of the vasopressin (ADH) effect on EPO until I saw LMG's posts, then looked it up. I agree Dominguez very likely was unaware of this, it does not seem to be well-researched. Yet the effect seems robust--they mention a doubling of circulating EPO levels--and as LMG says, appears mediated directly through receptors for VP, not an indirect effect because of changes in oxygen levels, etc. AFAIK, ADH is not a controlled substance, is it?

This is a good example of where the biopassport could actually be useful. It's about the only way one could detect the use of a non-controlled (?) substance to raise levels of a natural substance.

 

[Señor_Contador]

1. I hate to break it to ya, but AC won't race next year, so a dip it'll be. The question is whether they'll get out of that dip, i.e. if AC will return as the AC we know. Really, there's no Spanish rider ready to fill his shoes.

I love how you equate AC = Future of Spanish cycling. My friend, there's plenty more where AC came from. May take 1, 2 or 3 years, but eventually someone will come up.

2. That attitude that you display right there seems so typical of the Spanish reception of the doping scandals. Why is that?
It's like saying:
"don't you dare to discredit Spanish sport/athletes or the sportive results of the last decade, inspite of the fact that we've been involved in one dope-scandal after the other". I don't think this attitude is in anyway helping Spanish sports/athletes to regain respect and trust.

No, it was the very same "attitude" when Jan was dominating and was handed a big slice of humble pie, or when Pantani was handed his death sentence, or when Lance was making me curse his name aloud.

If you think Spanish sports/athletes and corresponding results of the last decade(s) aren't tarnished by the recent doping scandals: you're in for a surprise.

It's no surprise at all. I mean, I was lucky enough to see it first hand when Nadal decided to give the 2010 US Open a go and the reception he had here in NY, as if it was the Second Coming of Christ. I mean, that "tarnish" exists only in your head.

EDIT: I do definitely agree with you that, probably, many of the outstanding results of Spanish sports in the last years have been obtained in a clean and honest manner. I'm just trying to inform you that these sentiments of aggrievement are not in any way supportive of improving the reputation of your athletes.

Well, I'm really sure about Fernando Alonso, Lorenzo, Elías, Márquez, Sanz, Nadal (who's only doing that blood plasma cleansing stuff approved by WADA), et cetera. Heck, I just named 50% of the successes in one sentence. And none tested positive. Mon dieu!

 

[The Hitch]

1. I hate to break it to ya, but AC won't race next year, so a dip it'll be. The question is whether they'll get out of that dip, i.e. if AC will return as the AC we know. Really, there's no Spanish rider ready to fill his shoes.

.

Samuel Sanchez.

 

[DAOTEC]

“Urco”

Vindicated cause of Galgo

Pereiro in blue in his first match

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pereiro-vindicated-over-puerto-denials

 

[hrotha]

Someone should ask Pereiro about Losa.

 

[Highlander]

Someone should ask Pereiro about Losa.

Because he's been cleared in one investigation, we should immediately assume that he is guilty in another? I know that doping is rife, but what evidence suggests that Pereiro is connected to Losa besides the fact that both are Spanish?

 

[Mambo95]

. If you think Spanish cycling is going to take a huge dip downwards... you're in for a surprise.

It's going to take a huge dip downwards sometime in the next few years, doping or no doping. I mean, who are the Spanish stars of the future?

On CQ Ranking of the top 100 riders aged 26 or under, only six are Spanish (JJ Rojas being highest at no. 14). That's quite a contrast to an equivalent list in 2003, that had 11 Spaniards in the top 25.

 

[DAOTEC]

Operación Galgo suspect found dead

Apparent suicide for former mountain bike racer

Alberto León, a former mountain bike racer who was recently named in connection to the Spanish doping investigation known as Operación Galgo (Greyhound), was found dead in his home today of an apparent suicide. He was found hanged in his apartment in San Lorenzo de El Escorial near Madrid.

León was one of 14 people arrested in the recent doping investigation. He was also connected with the 2006 Operación Puerto case but was not prosecuted because there were no laws against doping in Spain at that time.

León allegedly worked as a courier for Eufemiano Fuentes, the man at the centre of both cases.

Police uncovered bags of blood stored in the refrigerator in León's apartment during a raid on December 9, 2010.

 

[L'arriviste]

Operación Galgo suspect found dead

Apparent suicide for former mountain bike racer

Alberto León, a former mountain bike racer who was recently named in connection to the Spanish doping investigation known as Operación Galgo (Greyhound), was found dead in his home today of an apparent suicide. He was found hanged in his apartment in San Lorenzo de El Escorial near Madrid.

León was one of 14 people arrested in the recent doping investigation. He was also connected with the 2006 Operación Puerto case but was not prosecuted because there were no laws against doping in Spain at that time.

León allegedly worked as a courier for Eufemiano Fuentes, the man at the centre of both cases.

Police uncovered bags of blood stored in the refrigerator in León's apartment during a raid on December 9, 2010.

Suicide? Yeah right.

 

[Jan the Man]

Sad.

This is sport and it shouldn't lead to someone's demise, whatever they may have been involved in.

RIP

 

[frenchfry]

Doping kills. In many ways.

There is no justification to defending doping. None.

The Spanish justice system who swept OP under the carpet and allowed Fuentes to continue almost without a pause have a share of the responsibility in Alberto León's death.

When will something be done to stop the massacre? How many more will die, or be destroyed?