Driving into cyclists the Emma way

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Aug 10, 2010
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Archibald said:
aphronesis said:
StyrbjornSterki said:
Last summer, ...
This weekend a driver honked as he came up behind me on a winding street that was about to open onto a major intersection as if I needed to cede the space and get pressed against parked cars. When I motioned with my hand for him to calm down (it wasn’t a profane gesture) he became more distressed. I told him “don’t honk at me; just don’t hit me.” To which he replied “it’s my horn; next time I’ll hit you.”

The notion of car as extension of self is getting greater rather than less with many people and this would have to be combatted as well. The laws you describe above exist in some places but they’re minimally enforced; it’s nnot just the fines there would need to be a greater culture of criminalization to make a real difference with some sectors of the population.
the thing to address is the attitude of drivers - making more laws and fining people just adds fuel to the fire, and doesn't get to the proximate cause/issue
The thing to address is safe and protected bicycle paths. Then more people (voters) ride, and the total environment improves. IMO.
 
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MarkvW said:
Archibald said:
aphronesis said:
StyrbjornSterki said:
Last summer, ...
This weekend a driver honked as he came up behind me on a winding street that was about to open onto a major intersection as if I needed to cede the space and get pressed against parked cars. When I motioned with my hand for him to calm down (it wasn’t a profane gesture) he became more distressed. I told him “don’t honk at me; just don’t hit me.” To which he replied “it’s my horn; next time I’ll hit you.”

The notion of car as extension of self is getting greater rather than less with many people and this would have to be combatted as well. The laws you describe above exist in some places but they’re minimally enforced; it’s nnot just the fines there would need to be a greater culture of criminalization to make a real difference with some sectors of the population.
the thing to address is the attitude of drivers - making more laws and fining people just adds fuel to the fire, and doesn't get to the proximate cause/issue
The thing to address is safe and protected bicycle paths. Then more people (voters) ride, and the total environment improves. IMO.
Doesn't help competitive cyclists who have to train on the road but for the general community of course it would help.
 
Separated bike lanes don't address the core issue - lousy driver behaviour.

If anything it simply reinforces the notion that cyclists don't belong on roads and encounters for those that do choose to ride on roads will become worse, not better.
 
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Archibald said:
movingtarget said:
I've been saying for years that the proximate cause that needs dealing with is driver/road user attitude.
Unfortunately, Australian motorists seem proud of their poor attitude and hatred towards cyclists...
You only need to read comments attaching to any cycling article in any news platform in Aust to see this.
The root of the cause (in Australia at least) has always been bogans with the childish attitude that people on bikes are “getting away” with things that THEY can’t (or more likely shouldn’t be able to do):

“They get away with not paying Rego”
“They get away with not paying insurance”
“They get away with using their phone”
“They get away with running traffic lights”
“They get away with slowing traffic”
“They get away with jumping from the road to the footpath”
“They get away with moving up on the left”
“They get away with lane splitting”

Blah blah blah. As if they don’t/wouldn’t do these things when they get the opportunity.

Such a self centred, childish attitude. It’s pathetic. The other major issue is their own arrogance and self importance - whatever stupid **** they are on their way to do is the most important thing happening in the universe at that time...
 
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42x16ss said:
Archibald said:
movingtarget said:
I've been saying for years that the proximate cause that needs dealing with is driver/road user attitude.
Unfortunately, Australian motorists seem proud of their poor attitude and hatred towards cyclists...
You only need to read comments attaching to any cycling article in any news platform in Aust to see this.
The root of the cause (in Australia at least) has always been bogans with the childish attitude that people on bikes are “getting away” with things that THEY can’t (or more likely shouldn’t be able to do):

“They get away with not paying Rego”
“They get away with not paying insurance”
“They get away with using their phone”
“They get away with running traffic lights”
“They get away with slowing traffic”
“They get away with jumping from the road to the footpath”
“They get away with moving up on the left”
“They get away with lane splitting”

Blah blah blah. As if they don’t/wouldn’t do these things when they get the opportunity.

Such a self centred, childish attitude. It’s pathetic. The other major issue is their own arrogance and self importance - whatever stupid **** they are on their way to do is the most important thing happening in the universe at that time...
it's not just the bogans
I won't ride on a Saturday because the two worst motorists are the tradies - you're having fun while I have to work, and the "soccer mums/dads" in their suv's - 'privileged' and expect to have their roads to themselves (all while paying more attention to their kids than the road...
Alex Simmons/RST said:
Separated bike lanes don't address the core issue - lousy driver behaviour.

If anything it simply reinforces the notion that cyclists don't belong on roads and encounters for those that do choose to ride on roads will become worse, not better.
definitely this.
there's a vocal lot complaining when riders don't use the separated bikeways (usually because it's a shared path and there's pedestrians all over it)
 
Aug 10, 2010
6,286
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Re: Re:

Archibald said:
42x16ss said:
Archibald said:
movingtarget said:
I've been saying for years that the proximate cause that needs dealing with is driver/road user attitude.
Unfortunately, Australian motorists seem proud of their poor attitude and hatred towards cyclists...
You only need to read comments attaching to any cycling article in any news platform in Aust to see this.
The root of the cause (in Australia at least) has always been bogans with the childish attitude that people on bikes are “getting away” with things that THEY can’t (or more likely shouldn’t be able to do):

“They get away with not paying Rego”
“They get away with not paying insurance”
“They get away with using their phone”
“They get away with running traffic lights”
“They get away with slowing traffic”
“They get away with jumping from the road to the footpath”
“They get away with moving up on the left”
“They get away with lane splitting”

Blah blah blah. As if they don’t/wouldn’t do these things when they get the opportunity.

Such a self centred, childish attitude. It’s pathetic. The other major issue is their own arrogance and self importance - whatever stupid **** they are on their way to do is the most important thing happening in the universe at that time...
it's not just the bogans
I won't ride on a Saturday because the two worst motorists are the tradies - you're having fun while I have to work, and the "soccer mums/dads" in their suv's - 'privileged' and expect to have their roads to themselves (all while paying more attention to their kids than the road...
Alex Simmons/RST said:
Separated bike lanes don't address the core issue - lousy driver behaviour.

If anything it simply reinforces the notion that cyclists don't belong on roads and encounters for those that do choose to ride on roads will become worse, not better.
definitely this.
there's a vocal lot complaining when riders don't use the separated bikeways (usually because it's a shared path and there's pedestrians all over it)
Once you get out of town and into the sticks, are the Australian locals cool to cyclists?
 
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MarkvW said:
Once you get out of town and into the sticks, are the Australian locals cool to cyclists?
Not really. You just have fewer instances to deal with, so it seems better.

Where I am the majority of drivers are actually pretty good but there's always one or two that are just awful. Unfortunately that's all it takes.
 
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Alex Simmons/RST said:
MarkvW said:
Once you get out of town and into the sticks, are the Australian locals cool to cyclists?
Not really. You just have fewer instances to deal with, so it seems better.

Where I am the majority of drivers are actually pretty good but there's always one or two that are just awful. Unfortunately that's all it takes.
For serious training in Australia, without interruption, you usually need to pick your routes. Getting out of the suburbs is almost always the best choice. Can never assume that you’re 100% safe here, you just never know what could be around the corner.
 
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Alex Simmons/RST said:
...If anything it simply reinforces the notion that cyclists don't belong on roads...
Precisely why I do NOT support the 1-metre/3-foot law. It codifies the notion that cyclists do NOT have the right to the entire lane.

Motorists get their knickers in a twist about cyclists "lane-splitting" but the 1-metre/3-foot law amounts to legalising lane splitting, but only for cagers.
 
I have been an avid cyclist for many years now. Mainly road, cross, and commuting. Since I had my first child, I really haven't had the time/desire to go on long weekend road rides. Would rather spend the time with my wife and son. I still commute to my office 35 minutes each way 5 days a week and ride or commute on weekends too. Pretty much on a bike 7 days a week, as I don't like being in a car at this point. And don't see the need. And am lucky enough to be about to bike most places.

From time to time I worry about starting road riding again...and having grown so unused to aggressive drivers that I'm not longer able to do it. I guess I'll have to see and shouldn't waste any time worrying about what ifs.
 
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Alex Simmons/RST said:
Separated bike lanes don't address the core issue - lousy driver behaviour.

If anything it simply reinforces the notion that cyclists don't belong on roads and encounters for those that do choose to ride on roads will become worse, not better.
This.
I would add (for my area) on top of being lousy, most drivers are just incompetent. Passing the drivers test is sooo easy. People are just simply terrible drivers and don't know what to do when they see a cyclist so they just get frustrated/mad. I say force everyone to ride bikes and then they'll become better (more aware) drivers. :)
 
Archibald said:
Won't fix the problems but many similar cases result in non custodial sentences so it's a step in the right direction. It also shows what cyclists are up against on a daily basis with the total lack of awareness by some drivers. I'm sure the victims family thinks the punishment is extremely mild. As stated in the article there are no winners but one person will get a second chance while the other wasn't so lucky.
 
movingtarget said:
Archibald said:
Won't fix the problems but many similar cases result in non custodial sentences so it's a step in the right direction. It also shows what cyclists are up against on a daily basis with the total lack of awareness by some drivers. I'm sure the victims family thinks the punishment is extremely mild. As stated in the article there are no winners but one person will get a second chance while the other wasn't so lucky.
all comes back to driving training/tuition - kids aren't taught to be aware of other road users, only how to pass the test...
It also explains why some car manufacturers are dumbing down the driving process so much - although, blocking the use of the dashboard console while the vehicle is in motion may well have saved this cyclist's life...
 
The worst part of those situations is the... I don't know if it's naivety, or arrogance, or possibly both. The "It'll be fine. I'm only looking away for a few seconds, nothing's gonna happen." mentality. Sure! Maybe 99 times nothing really does happen (or doesn't happen…) but then comes the 100th time, the time when looking away for just a few seconds is enough to permanently damage someone's life, to end someone's life. :cry:
 
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RedheadDane said:
The worst part of those situations is the... I don't know if it's naivety, or arrogance, or possibly both. The "It'll be fine. I'm only looking away for a few seconds, nothing's gonna happen." mentality. Sure! Maybe 99 times nothing really does happen (or doesn't happen…) but then comes the 100th time, the time when looking away for just a few seconds is enough to permanently damage someone's life, to end someone's life. :cry:
It's naivety and arrogance coupled with a victim mentality. The worst examples truly believe that bikes now have more rights than them and that riders think they own the roads. Apparently having to take other people into consideration means they're losing rights (think alt right/white supremicist kind of mentality).

It doesn't help when a reasonable percentage of Australian riders do ride with a total disregard for courtesy.
 
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42x16ss said:
RedheadDane said:
The worst part of those situations is the... I don't know if it's naivety, or arrogance, or possibly both. The "It'll be fine. I'm only looking away for a few seconds, nothing's gonna happen." mentality. Sure! Maybe 99 times nothing really does happen (or doesn't happen…) but then comes the 100th time, the time when looking away for just a few seconds is enough to permanently damage someone's life, to end someone's life. :cry:
It's naivety and arrogance coupled with a victim mentality. The worst examples truly believe that bikes now have more rights than them and that riders think they own the roads. Apparently having to take other people into consideration means they're losing rights (think alt right/white supremicist kind of mentality).

It doesn't help when a reasonable percentage of Australian riders do ride with a total disregard for courtesy.
most of which comes from the "well, if you're going to treat me like sh*t, then f**k you too" mentality, which is just perpetuated from both sides
 
Aug 10, 2010
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Alex Simmons/RST said:
Separated bike lanes don't address the core issue - lousy driver behaviour.

If anything it simply reinforces the notion that cyclists don't belong on roads and encounters for those that do choose to ride on roads will become worse, not better.
When you come up with a way to fix lousy driver behavior, let me know. Then I will agree with you. Until then, separate bike lanes! It gets more people on bikes, etc...
 
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MarkvW said:
Alex Simmons/RST said:
Separated bike lanes don't address the core issue - lousy driver behaviour.

If anything it simply reinforces the notion that cyclists don't belong on roads and encounters for those that do choose to ride on roads will become worse, not better.
When you come up with a way to fix lousy driver behavior, let me know.
There are plenty of ways, e.g. strategies which have been successfully implemented in more thoughtful nations such as:
- stricter driver licensing requirements (lift the standards)
- coupled with better education and training (think about how attitudes to seat belts and driving under the influence changed dramatically over the years with legislation, enforcement and lots of education campaigns),
- vastly improved policing strategies and resource deployment designed to encourage and protect vulnerable road users
along with
- strict liability laws in favour of the most vulnerable,
- significantly reduced speed limits and strategies to reduce or throttle motor vehicle traffic especially in city and urban areas,
- strict limits on large vehicles permitted in such areas

but we lack the social conscience and political will in this country.
 
Re: Re:

Alex Simmons/RST said:
MarkvW said:
Alex Simmons/RST said:
Separated bike lanes don't address the core issue - lousy driver behaviour.

If anything it simply reinforces the notion that cyclists don't belong on roads and encounters for those that do choose to ride on roads will become worse, not better.
When you come up with a way to fix lousy driver behavior, let me know.
There are plenty of ways, e.g. strategies which have been successfully implemented in more thoughtful nations such as:
- stricter driver licensing requirements (lift the standards)
- coupled with better education and training (think about how attitudes to seat belts and driving under the influence changed dramatically over the years with legislation, enforcement and lots of education campaigns),
- vastly improved policing strategies and resource deployment designed to encourage and protect vulnerable road users
along with
- strict liability laws in favour of the most vulnerable,
- significantly reduced speed limits and strategies to reduce or throttle motor vehicle traffic especially in city and urban areas,
- strict limits on large vehicles permitted in such areas

but we lack the social conscience and political will in this country.
It just keeps coming back to that "we pay for the roads, you don't, so f$#k off" mentality and no effort whatsoever has been made in the media to dispel it.
 

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