Dumoulin.

[yespatterns]

Tom D has a good preperation for sure. I must admit watching the nationalists defending him is comedy gold. Ah well, most of us here have had our "come to the light" moments. It stings for a hot minute, but after that it's easier.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

As if I had to look up that quote on the Internet when one of the riders lamented "riders with big butts passing skinny riders uphill". :-/

Without browsing myself can I ask, was that Luis Herrera who said that first or was it maybe just a common expression I believe I heard him use in an interview?

I thought it was Andy Hampsten, but have not checked.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

As if I had to look up that quote on the Internet when one of the riders lamented "riders with big butts passing skinny riders uphill". :-/

Without browsing myself can I ask, was that Luis Herrera who said that first or was it maybe just a common expression I believe I heard him use in an interview?

I thought it was Andy Hampsten, but have not checked.

Pretty sure it was Hampsten as well, but Lucho said something similar, along with others such as Phil Anderson.

 

[malakassis]

Re: Re:

[quote=""Jeff"":3s9ral22][quote="

No, not at all. But when you consider that a higher weight is a major disadvantage, especially as the road gets steeper, so higher force acting against a climber's motion due to weight, Dumoulin needs to put out more watts than the lighter riders. Then, when you consider his fairly sudden rise in climbing ability (it's one thing to do well at the Tour de Suisse, another to do it at a Grand Tour against some of the best climbers in the world) and the nature of the sport, you have to be at least somewhat suspicious

+1

just look at the development of the GC riders: in the 90s you had riis,indurain even pantani with significant higher bodyfat than now. it was useful for the 3 weeks and they had full dosed epo anyhow. now things have changed. its microdosing and weight has become more important. there is no clean way that dumoulin can keep that close with climbers. then think about fatigue: dumoulin fatigues much more in big mountain stage than climbers,because hes heavier. so he needs more recovery.if he hasnt,then he needs advanced recovery. btw he looks much like on HGH.they are all on jiuce, but hes gotta be most.
but ok, he can bring big money. hes tall, good looking (like young merckx) and cycling nation netherlands need some GC boyz if not they could slowly lose interest.

 

[bebellion2]

Re: Re:

He should be able to go really well on Mortirolo as well. I mean, that's just like six 2-km steep climbs in quick succession.

Sorry forgot the smiley. That's what I was suggesting yes Although the tempo wasn't too big before the last two km-s here so it's okay if he stayed.

Btw I've found Astana's tactics a bit strange here. One participant said Landa's tempo was too high that's why nobody was able to attack. But if it was too high then why they haven't just let him go? I mean, he's not a gc guy and Aru was hiding back in the field so he couldn't have gone with him...

 

[victorschipolrijk]

Re:

I could just about believe a steady sustained output of power from him on a climb, but this was like a 'Spanish flea' type ride, plain ridiculous.

What is a 'Spanish flea' ?

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Just once, I would like to read about a GT performer doing "what's expected", and not having a "surprising" first two weeks.

Anyone who leans on Wiggins as a foundation for performance justification just nailed his doping coffin shut as far as I am concerned.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/tom-dumoulin-bradley-wiggins-showed-me-whats-possible-190234?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social

Dumoulin has just made the statement he is doping. "Wiggins showed him......." = doping. End of.

Now we just need Canc and Tony Martin to get in on the act.......

 

[Rollthedice]

70 Ks of TT in Giro next year. Since only a foolish mistake or an overnight improved TTer Aru can prevent Tom to win Vuelta, I am now expecting Dumoulin to double on the GTs in 2016.

 

[doolols]

Re:

Anyone who leans on Wiggins as a foundation for performance justification just nailed his doping coffin shut as far as I am concerned.

And, of course, Wiggo had a whole team around him, selected and trained for his TdF aspirations. They dragged him up the big climbs, sometimes having 4, 5 or more Sky riders ahead of him. Dumoulin is on his own when the road starts going up.

I loved the bit: “It was a big surprise for us,” said sports director, Addy Engels. Not as much as it was for us, Addy.

 

["Jeff"]

Re: Re:

He should be able to go really well on Mortirolo as well. I mean, that's just like six 2-km steep climbs in quick succession.

Sorry forgot the smiley. That's what I was suggesting yes Although the tempo wasn't too big before the last two km-s here so it's okay if he stayed.

Btw I've found Astana's tactics a bit strange here. One participant said Landa's tempo was too high that's why nobody was able to attack. But if it was too high then why they haven't just let him go? I mean, he's not a gc guy and Aru was hiding back in the field so he couldn't have gone with him...

Steep climbs are spectacular but the time differences are often small.

I dont understand what you mean with "just let him go" ? Why would they and why would he ?

70 Ks of TT in Giro next year. Since only a foolish mistake or an overnight improved TTer Aru can prevent Tom to win Vuelta, I am now expecting Dumoulin to double on the GTs in 2016.

I rate the Giro much higher. I have yet to see if TD is really a guy for the GC, I still have my doubts.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Anyone who leans on Wiggins as a foundation for performance justification just nailed his doping coffin shut as far as I am concerned.

And, of course, Wiggo had a whole team around him, selected and trained for his TdF aspirations. They dragged him up the big climbs, sometimes having 4, 5 or more Sky riders ahead of him. Dumoulin is on his own when the road starts going up.

I loved the bit: “It was a big surprise for us,” said sports director, Addy Engels. Not as much as it was for us, Addy.

Right? Commentators have been marveling at these unbelievable break through performances since forever, and this is almost a copy and paste from 2009:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/tour-de-france-2009/stage-15/results/

Perhaps the biggest surprise is the guy 11 seconds behind the Texan on the overall classification, Bradley Wiggins of Garmin-Slipstream. From Olympic glory in the individual and team pursuit at the Beijing Olympics 10 months ago - heavily specialised disciplines lasting just four kilometres - to a change in focus, mentality and physical prowess in order to take on the world's most arduous bike race, this year 3,459.5 kilometres long, the 29-year-old Brit sporting a pair of lamb-chop sideburns has undergone a brilliant transformation. Whether he can continue in this bold way, unafraid to attack his more established Grand Tour peers - or perhaps improve further still - we'll need another few mountains to find out.

 

[vedrafjord]

From that Cycling Weekly link:

Dumoulin, five-foot-nine and 70 kilograms

That seems completely wrong - everywhere else he's listed as a more Wiggo-esque 6'1".

 

[doolols]

Wikpedia has him at 1.86m / 6'1"

 

[doolols]

Mind you, here he is by the side of Degenkolb, who is quoted at 1.80m, so 1.86m is probably right.

 

[malakassis]

Re:

Mind you, here he is by the side of Degenkolb, who is quoted at 1.80m, so 1.86m is probably right.

nice pic...left side is best side

 

[bebellion2]

Re: Re:

[quote=""Jeff"":1npx136t]
I dont understand what you mean with "just let him go" ? Why would they and why would he ?
[/quote]

It's not mandatory to follow the guy on the front. There was only 3 bonus seconds left to fight for, the pack could've taken a slower pace to allow for attacks which might've resulted in bigger gaps. Why care for what Landa is doing?

 

[classicomano]

Re:

Anyone who leans on Wiggins as a foundation for performance justification just nailed his doping coffin shut as far as I am concerned.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/tom-dumoulin-bradley-wiggins-showed-me-whats-possible-190234?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social

Well that settles it then, case closed. Another mystery solved by The Clinic 12. Well done everybody, have a safe trip home.

 

["Jeff"]

Re: Re:

[quote=""Jeff"":gns8hqxo]
I dont understand what you mean with "just let him go" ? Why would they and why would he ?

It's not mandatory to follow the guy on the front. There was only 3 bonus seconds left to fight for, the pack could've taken a slower pace to allow for attacks which might've resulted in bigger gaps. Why care for what Landa is doing?[/quote]There were no bonus seconds left, around 7 riders were still up front.

Everyone will follow the leader of the chasing group and if they can, they attack and obviously nobody could. The end.

Your perspective of watching the race is rather new. Its not ''mandatory'' to follow Landa, but thats going to happen anyway, always has been.

 

[classicomano]

Dumoulin goes there: "I learned from Wiggins." He said, while winking furiously.

Perhaps we can ask his opinion of Armstrong to really hammer it home.

 

[Miburo]

Dumoulin, please do it. Please win this race, and crush the ITT tomorrow.

 

[rainman]

Re: Re:

I could just about believe a steady sustained output of power from him on a climb, but this was like a 'Spanish flea' type ride, plain ridiculous.

What is a 'Spanish flea' ?

Showing my age sadly. It was a nickname for a Spanish climber of yesteryear, maybe Jimenez, I forget. It implied a climber who could put in several rapid accelerations on a climb rather than a steady grind. The change of pace was a terrible ordeal for all but the true grimpeurs.
I know Dumoulin is not one of those but on the stage in question he made three or four violent surges on that wall of a climb which seemed unnatural for a rider of his physique.

 

["Jeff"]

Re:

Dumoulin goes there: "I learned from Wiggins." He said, while winking furiously.

Perhaps we can ask his opinion of Armstrong to really hammer it home.

+ dont forget he once trained with Michael Barry.

 

[Cookster15]

Has anyone done quick power estimations for Dumoulin using either Aru or Purito as the benchmark? What is the power estimate for Aru (61.5Kg) and Purito (57Kg) on yesterday's 11% MTF and what power would Dumoulin (70Kg) need to be making to keep up? Then we start to draw a clearer picture without all the conjecture.

For example at 5.5W/Kg Aru is making 341 Watts. Dumoulin would need to make 384 watts to keep up. Based upon the fatigue of the riders this Vuelta and the extremely hard stage yesterday and in Andorra I think a figure of 5.5W/Kg is more realistic than the usual estimations of 6.0W+/Kg.

I have used Wikipedia weights for each rider plus have no idea if these power numbers are even close but once we agree on the numbers it makes the picture of Dumoulin doping or not much clearer.

 

[Cookster15]

Re: Re:

I could just about believe a steady sustained output of power from him on a climb, but this was like a 'Spanish flea' type ride, plain ridiculous.

What is a 'Spanish flea' ?

I know Dumoulin is not one of those but on the stage in question he made three or four violent surges on that wall of a climb which seemed unnatural for a rider of his physique.

In last 2 kilometres of yesterday's MTF he clearly didn't surge but rode at his own tempo to limit his losses. Looked "natural" to me for a bigger rider who is a strong TTer competing against lightweights like Purito? Leaving Quintana out of this as he seems cooked.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re:

Has anyone done quick power estimations for Dumoulin using either Aru or Purito as the benchmark? What is the power estimate for Aru (61.5Kg) and Purito (57Kg) on yesterday's 11% MTF and what power would Dumoulin (70Kg) need to be making to keep up? Then we start to draw a clearer picture without all the conjecture.

For example at 5.5W/Kg Aru is making 341 Watts. Dumoulin would need to make 384 watts to keep up. Based upon the fatigue of the riders this Vuelta and the extremely hard stage yesterday and in Andorra I think a figure of 5.5W/Kg is more realistic than the usual estimations of 6.0W+/Kg.

I have used Wikipedia weights for each rider plus have no idea if these power numbers are even close but once we agree on the numbers it makes the picture of Dumoulin doping or not much clearer.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CN-BPV_UsAA9Utf.jpg