Dumoulin.

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Let's see what Dumoulin does in the mountain stages to come. If he doesn't lose much time and even wins a MTF stage, fending off Quintana, Nibali, Pinot and the rest of the riders that are supposed to climb better than him, then we may have a Wiggins and potentially a Indurain. Doping? A good chance. The next Wiggins? A real good chance. The next Indurain? Not just yet. Quite a few of Big Mig's TT wins, particularly those at the GT races were colossal, he'd win over 3 minutes. Actually Ullrich was really compared to Indurain back in the day. I remember Ullrich's win at the 1997 TDF. That first TT win to St. Etienne, coming two stages after his win at Arcalis. He started in yellow, last man on the road, starting 3 minutes behind Virenque. He caught Virenque with a few km's to go. Won by 3:05. Granted that was a tough course over 55 km, and looking at the time, 1 hour 16. So 26 more minutes in the saddle than Dumoulin. That said, Ullrich had no real trouble following the best climbers (Pantani and Virenque), apart from losing to Pantani on L'Alpe D'huez and having some difficulty on a hilly transition stage after the final MTF that year. But the strong Telekom team protected him well and he didn't lose any time, winning the overall by 9 minutes and change. I don't see Big Tom D. doing this. I also don't see him beating Quintana by over 1 minute on a MTF and then sitting on Quintana's wheel for the rest of the mountain stages. But that's just how I see it.
 
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Brullnux said:
red_flanders said:
Brullnux said:
red_flanders said:
ontheroad said:
In retrospect I think the comparisions with Wiggo are much too harsh. Tom has showed talent at a much earlier age. Wiggo only smashed it at around the 30 mark. Dumoulin does look good on a bike but cycling continues to defy logic sometimes.
Good call.

I would add that I'm not going to add him to Wiggo status after one climb, either. Let's see.
Wiggins didn't focus on road until he was 27/28 though, and immediately came 4th in the Tour, which is better than Dumoulin has ever done prior to this.
Come on. Who buys this stuff?
What? It's true. Wiggins was an excellent track cyclist. The transition was more out there than Dumorain, but not as much as some people are saying. Dumoulin went TT specialist to GT, wiggins went track to GT. Dumorain is probably better climber than wiggo ever was.
Wiggins was absolute gruppetto fodder for years on the road. The "didn't focus on the road" stuff was retroactive PR used to explain his absurd transformation. That anyone actually bought it amazes me. Never mind buying it after all that's come out.
 
41 pages on Dumourain in The Clinic already. Not a new topic...but again there're thousands pages and many threads about LeMond ;) .

AFAIK, I can make sense of the Blockhaus or today, but not both :confused: . Too big a pill to swallow.
 
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I'm going to say that Nibali will pull off another magical W. No way is this over, especially with the mountains looming. He's going beyond full r*tard...he's going to go to plaid*

*Spaceballs movie reference for those that don't know.
 
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58teeth said:
I'm going to say that Nibali will pull off another magical W. No way is this over, especially with the mountains looming. He's going beyond full r*tard...he's going to go to plaid*

*Spaceballs movie reference for those that don't know.
Nibali's "resurrection" last year was something else. He got away with it, so why not try it gain? But if, as I suspect, Dumoulin is on the juice too, it won't be enough. I think...
 
Tonton said:
41 pages on Dumourain in The Clinic already. Not a new topic...but again there're thousands pages and many threads about LeMond ;) .

AFAIK, I can make sense of the Blockhaus or today, but not both :confused: . Too big a pill to swallow.
Agree. To lose that much weight + gain that much climbing ability + not lose any tt power = we know how this is achieved.

Maximal gains.
 
Re: Re:

Tonton said:
58teeth said:
I'm going to say that Nibali will pull off another magical W. No way is this over, especially with the mountains looming. He's going beyond full r*tard...he's going to go to plaid*

*Spaceballs movie reference for those that don't know.
Nibali's "resurrection" last year was something else. He got away with it, so why not try it gain? But if, as I suspect, Dumoulin is on the juice too, it won't be enough. I think...
I so want Dumoulin to win it, I hope Nibali's resurrection 2.0 will be out-TTed on the last day in Milan
 
Oct 10, 2012
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pastronef said:
Tonton said:
58teeth said:
I'm going to say that Nibali will pull off another magical W. No way is this over, especially with the mountains looming. He's going beyond full r*tard...he's going to go to plaid*

*Spaceballs movie reference for those that don't know.
Nibali's "resurrection" last year was something else. He got away with it, so why not try it gain? But if, as I suspect, Dumoulin is on the juice too, it won't be enough. I think...
I so want Dumoulin to win it, I hope Nibali's resurrection 2.0 will be out-TTed on the last day in Milan
I agree. The fight for the Giro is now a 2 way battle unless Nibali can get another refill during the 2nd rest day. Wouldn't rule that completely out mind you.
 
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The Hegelian said:
Tonton said:
41 pages on Dumourain in The Clinic already. Not a new topic...but again there're thousands pages and many threads about LeMond ;) .

AFAIK, I can make sense of the Blockhaus or today, but not both :confused: . Too big a pill to swallow.
Agree. To lose that much weight + gain that much climbing ability + not lose any tt power = we know how this is achieved.

Maximal gains.
Some proper young Hegelian dialectics right thurrr.

Ofcourse Dumoulin is doped to the max, it's pretty much impossible to believe he is not.
 
Der Effe said:
Ofcourse Dumoulin is doped to the max, it's pretty much impossible to believe he is not.
Well, if you presume that the hitters are doping, it seems pretty much impossible to reasonably argue that Dumoulin is not.

You can believe in just about anything. Flying Spaghetti Monsters; Ginkgo Biloba; Global Cooling; Bradley Wiggins; free lunches; Donald Trump; Real Freedom; that 50 is the new 30; that no one is really evil, they're just misunderstood; and that what you've been piling on is just baby fat that'll easily come off. Good on you. But as much as I like Tom, and wish him well; it's hard ask to trust that he can perform at this level while being the only good boy scout at band camp.
 
May 26, 2010
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carton said:
Der Effe said:
Ofcourse Dumoulin is doped to the max, it's pretty much impossible to believe he is not.
Well, if you presume that the hitters are doping, it seems pretty much impossible to reasonably argue that Dumoulin is not.

You can believe in just about anything. Flying Spaghetti Monsters; Ginkgo Biloba; Global Cooling; Bradley Wiggins; free lunches; Donald Trump; Real Freedom; that 50 is the new 30; that no one is really evil, they're just misunderstood; and that what you've been piling on is just baby fat that'll easily come off. Good on you. But as much as I like Tom, and wish him well; it's hard ask to trust that he can perform at this level while being the only good boy scout at band camp.
Why would Dumoulin not be doped? The culture demands it, the history proves it and the testing is abysmal.
 
Benotti69 said:
Why would Dumoulin not be doped? The culture demands it, the history proves it and the testing is abysmal.
Well, he might just not want to do it. There is such a thing as free will. He's already earned himself a comfortable livelihood. He doesn't seem to want for riches or adulation. He might believe that sportsmanship is a thing, and that so is integrity, and setting an example for children. He may just be put off by the hypocrisy of it, as taking an anti-doping stance is the done thing now. He could be keeping a promise made to his parents or his significant other. He might just be afraid of needles.

Also, the advantage gleaned from doping may not be all that it once was. Performances have fallen (or at least plateaued) since the 7W/kg days of Marco and Miguelón. Meanwhile, that abysmal testing regime is likely the most stringent in sports (bar whatever exceptions you'll surely note). It cannot be beaten without some degree of effort (post-dated TUEs for EPO aren't just passed around like gels), and proud defiance à la Benotti or Anquetil will no longer do.

Sure, it seems quite naive to portend that doping is no longer a thing in cycling, particularly among upper tier GC guys. But by the same token I think it is no longer as unreasonable to allow for exceptions, whatever their motivations. Whether Major Tom was so singularly exceptional was what was wondered.

And yes, I just sort-of played both sides out of the same fiddle. Sorry. Not sorry. Both. Neither.
 
carton said:
Well, he might just not want to do it. There is such a thing as free will. He's already earned himself a comfortable livelihood. He doesn't seem to want for riches or adulation. He might believe that sportsmanship is a thing, and that so is integrity, and setting an example for children. He may just be put off by the hypocrisy of it, as taking an anti-doping stance is the done thing now. He could be keeping a promise made to his parents or his significant other. He might just be afraid of needles.
Here is a picture of a Santa Fairy. Because the Tooth Fairy and Santa would need to procreate and create this for how much faith would be required...

 

Singer01

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ScienceIsCool said:
Singer01 said:
Benotti69 said:
classicomano said:
Benotti69 said:
Domoulin has ridden 7 GTs before this Giro and only finished 3. Not a great record or a showing of potential for GTs.
What point are you trying to make here? All 4 of those DNF's were because of crashes/injury's.
As i said not showing GT potential.
Indurains first 9 3 week races, DNF x 5, 84, 92, 97, 47. People develop at different rates.
Did you just use Indurain as an example of natural rider development? Wow... Even Riis or Chiappucci would be a better example.

John Swanson
Clearly not, i used indurain as an example of peoples GT potential developing at different stages in their career. As you would know if you had read what was written, rather than jumping straight in.
I have no doubt that indurain was dirty.
 
carton said:
Benotti69 said:
Why would Dumoulin not be doped? The culture demands it, the history proves it and the testing is abysmal.
Well, he might just not want to do it. There is such a thing as free will. He's already earned himself a comfortable livelihood. He doesn't seem to want for riches or adulation. He might believe that sportsmanship is a thing, and that so is integrity, and setting an example for children. He may just be put off by the hypocrisy of it, as taking an anti-doping stance is the done thing now. He could be keeping a promise made to his parents or his significant other. He might just be afraid of needles.

Also, the advantage gleaned from doping may not be all that it once was. Performances have fallen (or at least plateaued) since the 7W/kg days of Marco and Miguelón. Meanwhile, that abysmal testing regime is likely the most stringent in sports (bar whatever exceptions you'll surely note). It cannot be beaten without some degree of effort (post-dated TUEs for EPO aren't just passed around like gels), and proud defiance à la Benotti or Anquetil will no longer do.

Sure, it seems quite naive to portend that doping is no longer a thing in cycling, particularly among upper tier GC guys. But by the same token I think it is no longer as unreasonable to allow for exceptions, whatever their motivations. Whether Major Tom was so singularly exceptional was what was wondered.

And yes, I just sort-of played both sides out of the same fiddle. Sorry. Not sorry. Both. Neither.
I'd love to see Dumoulin outclimbing everyone on Dolomites, or in any other MTF and read your post again. :D
 
Re: Re:

Brullnux said:
red_flanders said:
ontheroad said:
In retrospect I think the comparisions with Wiggo are much too harsh. Tom has showed talent at a much earlier age. Wiggo only smashed it at around the 30 mark. Dumoulin does look good on a bike but cycling continues to defy logic sometimes.
Good call.

I would add that I'm not going to add him to Wiggo status after one climb, either. Let's see.
Wiggins didn't focus on road until he was 27/28 though, and immediately came 4th in the Tour, which is better than Dumoulin has ever done prior to this.
No.

That is a lie.

Wiggins focused on the road in 2005, 2006 and 2007:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/columnists/brendangallagher/2353391/Cycling-jester-takes-to-the-road.html

He just sucked. That's why this revisionist history of "he only focused on the road in 2009" was retroactively applied by brunyeelsford after wiggins suddenly hit god mode years later.
 
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41st in the TdF at 22
Top 5 Tour de Suisse at 23
Top 10 + stages in the Vuelta at 24
Challenging for Giro win at 26

Transformation? :lol:
 
May 26, 2010
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Supimilian said:
41st in the TdF at 22
Top 5 Tour de Suisse at 23
Top 10 + stages in the Vuelta at 24
Challenging for Giro win at 26

Transformation? :lol:
They start doping so early now, not like in the old days....... :surprised:
 
Benotti69 said:
Supimilian said:
41st in the TdF at 22
Top 5 Tour de Suisse at 23
Top 10 + stages in the Vuelta at 24
Challenging for Giro win at 26

Transformation? :lol:
They start doping so early now, not like in the old days....... :surprised:
It really doesn't convince anyone to try and fit every circumstance to an existing narrative. He certainly showed more promise than any of the more recent transformers. It seems possible at this point for a clean or relatively clean, talented rider to get top 5 at Suisse and Top 10 at the Vuelta. Doesn't mean he was totally clean, but also he never jumped out as some kind of obvious doper either.

Certainly looks like he's using help to cut weight at this point. We'll see about recovery as the race goes along. So far I don't think he's done anything shocking. What was the actual wattage on Blockhaus? Did not strike me at alien just from watching. One climb is one climb. Let's see what happens.

If he climbs and recovers like that for the rest of the race and one can say his progression has been accelerated un-naturally. IMO.
 
To add a bit of perspective to his performances, specially on Blockhaus. This was a Vuelta-esque single climb stage coming on the back of a mostly softpedalled first week. Just because the climb was Blockhaus, lot of people are predictably overreacting, yet there hasn't even been a single proper mountain stage thus far.

When assessing the time gaps on the Blockhaus, the nature and placement of the stage itself has been as important as the overall toughness of the only mountain on that stage. For Dumoulin, stage 9 was effectively a mountain TT up a single climb. There might or might not be doping involved with his performance, but it most certainly is being overreacted upon. Basically he has made the most of a favourable first half of the Giro for him. We haven't seen a single performance being close to full genius yet, though those may well be on the way, with GC situation being what it is.
 
Supimilian said:
41st in the TdF at 22
Top 5 Tour de Suisse at 23
Top 10 + stages in the Vuelta at 24
Challenging for Giro win at 26

Transformation? :lol:
Take the Tour de Suisse top 5 with a (huge) pinch of salt. It was quite a TT heavy race, and Dumoulin lost 2:18 to Rui Costa on not the most difficult MTF and finished not far ahead of a 21 year old Davide Formolo. He finished behind Tony Martin, which gives an indication of the parcours. He podiumed again the next year but apart from the Rettenbachferner there were no real climbs, along with 45km of ITT. None of those perforomances came close to Blockhaus.

The Hitch said:
[quote="Brullnux":24iz55ap][quote="red_flanders":24iz55ap][quote="ontheroad":24iz55ap]In retrospect I think the comparisions with Wiggo are much too harsh. Tom has showed talent at a much earlier age. Wiggo only smashed it at around the 30 mark. Dumoulin does look good on a bike but cycling continues to defy logic sometimes.
Good call.

I would add that I'm not going to add him to Wiggo status after one climb, either. Let's see.[/quote]
Wiggins didn't focus on road until he was 27/28 though, and immediately came 4th in the Tour, which is better than Dumoulin has ever done prior to this.[/quote]

No.

That is a lie.

Wiggins focused on the road in 2005, 2006 and 2007:
<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/columnists/brendangallagher/2353391/Cycling-jester-takes-to-the-road.html</span>

He just sucked. That's why this revisionist history of "he only focused on the road in 2009" was retroactively applied by brunyeelsford after wiggins suddenly hit god mode years later.[/quote]

Fair enough. I definitely over exaggerated with the better than Dumoulin. It's harsh to say Wiggins was a crap cyclist, but the Tour performance did come out of completely nowhere. Had he dropped track and became a decent time triallist without the GC stuff then I don't think it would've been that ridiculous, but you are right that even in 2005/2006 he was pretty useless. I take it back
 

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