Eki frustrated by AC's comments

[Carboncrank]

Don't you get that LA sees himself as the ultimate teacher for AC or any of the relatively young riders in the peloton? Whether that's true or not is beside the point. Surely you see how that perception, and AC's apparent reluctance to accept LA in that manner, is central to their relationship, or, rather, the lack thereof?

Man, that was like throwing red meat to the lions.

Once you've said that you can't follow it with whether it's true or not. It's been pounced on.

It or course is not true.

Johan's job was to teach.

 

[Anonymous]

There are teammates, and there are teammates who are champions. You can't expect to treat a champion-teammate like any other teammate.
This goes for both of them.

I don't know why you think it started with that twitter statement. Do you? Just because that's the first time you learned of an issue between them?

I think it's just as likely that that tweet back in March or whatever reflected a problem, and probably exacerbated that problem, that was already brewing by then. Hadn't they already been in a training camp together by then? If so, I wonder what happened there.

As i stated above, the underlying reality existed apart from any of the outward expressions. I simply think that once it began to be played out in front of millions, any hope (if there ever was any) of mutual respect and peaceful existence was shattered.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

I think that maybe much of the contention did not manifest itself until they actually got to the Tour.

Before the Tour started Alberto was stating, publicly, that he considered Lance (and Levi) to be competition. Whatever happened happened before they got to the Tour, and I've never heard even a hint that it was because of Lance's tweets.

Levi, by the way, made no such tweets, AFAIK, and he was considered to be an adversary by AC before the start of the Tour too.

Lance may have his trailer trash no father self-esteem issues, but Alberto might actually be a little bit nuts.

 

[Tonester]

It may be coincidence, but Lance seems to always make these announcements when Contador is having a great day or Grand Tour. I believe it all started way back in the Vuelta when Lance announced his comeback. of Course just after Contador signed a new contract - Johan as the devilish manipulator. What did that teach Alberto? Not to trust your DS!

 

[Carboncrank]

I think that maybe much of the contention did not manifest itself until they actually got to the Tour. I also think that is understandable. Honestly, the thing that it shows most clearly is that you just cannot have to TRUE alpha males fighting for the same piece of real estate without some wounds happening.

This may sound goofy, but if you watch animal shows about lions and gorillas and the like, you will see the base nature of what drove the situation. Some people have it in them to dominate those around them. It is common among males of any species for there to be competition for _______________. I think we all exhibit that characteristic to a greater or lesser extent. However, in any given situation where there is real competition, one male will be the strongest. As that male ages, another younger male will come along and supplant the older males authority. When that happens, don't expect the older male to be happy about it, and don't expect the younger to show much of anything in the way of generosity.

I dislike Mr Armstrong for specific things. In reality, this isn't one of them. I may have talked a lot of shit about it, but in reality, I wouldn't have expected the situation to have been any different than it was.

Anyway, its nice to discuss this without the mud.

Quite an admission.

I think you analogy is very good. Try as we might when push comes to shove mammal behaviors come out.

I find it disturbing but there is science out there that shows that dominant monkeys have healthier blood chemistry than those that are picked on by the group and that those unwilling submissives have cholesterol, higher rates of heart disease and earlier death. Losing is bad for your health.

Did anybody see any film crews around that might have been shooting documentary film? Wouldn't you like to see inside that bus?

Actually they let Verus film the morning meeting on one stage. I was taken by how intently was studying the daily race book and that Alberto and Lance never came close to looking toward one another let alone making eye contact.

A lot of athletes wouldn't be good at what they do if they didn't have attitude. I couldn't get excited when people started talking about Cav an arrogance. I was like... what do you expect... he's a sprinter.
I think Rickey Henderson is the greatest baseball player I ever saw, but I wouldn't want to hang out with him.

Now, you probably won't like this TFF but I kind of see Lance at this point in his life a bit like an alcoholic in a 12 step program. He's accepted that he may have behaived badly in the past but has a certain determination to make ammends.

Then this "incompatibilty" with Alberto kind of pushed that idea beyond what he was capable of. I put more of that on Alberto than Lance, others see it the other way.

I still believe after Monaco, Alberto never really had anything to worry about and that he should have trusted Johan, and even Lance. But I cant hold it against him that he didn't. Too much anyway.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Man, that was like throwing red meat to the lions.

Once you've said that you can't follow it with whether it's true or not. It's been pounced on.

It or course is not true.

Johan's job was to teach.

Yeah, I really don't know if it's true that ''"LA sees himself as the ultimate teacher for AC or any of the relatively young riders"''. In retrospect, it's probably not true.

 

[Parrot23]

Some useful info/context

http://www.steephill.tv/2009/entries/contador-post-tdf-news-conference/

 

[scribe]

Poor Contador. Misunderstood is he.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

http://www.steephill.tv/2009/entries/contador-post-tdf-news-conference/

Ugh. Pretty ugly. Don't mess with Texas...

 

[Ninety5rpm]

http://www.steephill.tv/2009/entries/contador-post-tdf-news-conference/

Can someone who knows Spanish figure out the source of this:

It happened on Thursday, a few hours before the Annecy ITT. Contador came downstairs to the entrance of the Palace of Menthon, the luxurious Astana hotel. The Tour was in play. He looked right, then left. Nobody, nothing. No Astana cars or support staff. Cold sweat. A time check. Where are they? The hotel is several kilometers from the start. There he was, the leader of the Tour, in flip-flops, bag in hand and alone. He went to the hall looking for an answer: Armstrong had ordered the staff to go pick up his wife, kids and friends to the airport.
Contador left his room last because he was the last one starting the ITT. Armstrong had managed to take away his means of transportation. The straw that broke the camel’s back. Steaming with anger. He phoned his brother Fran. He came to pick him up by car and took him to Annecy in his own vehicle. He left last and finished first. His best victory. In the ITT. In solitude. The same way he won his second tour.

Contador’s toughest climb was not recorded in images. It was narrated by others. It was fought in the hotel and the bus: during one stage, Armstrong sat his guests at the very back of the bus, right in Contador’s usual seat. One more provocation. Armstrong to the luxury suite. Contador to sleep with Paulinho, the only ally. Same deal during the entire tour. Mouth shut, listening to Armstrong’s jabs: “It doesn’t take a Nobel prize to figure out what happens with side winds”. Contador didn’t reply in the hotel. He did on the road. He attacked in the first mountain finish in Arcalis. Without permission from Bruyneel, Armstrong’s DS. That night the Astana hotel was a funeral. Red eyes from the Texan (anger? crying? not sure). The first cyclist that stood up to him. And he did it in silence."

I know the Spanish original is this:
www.diariosur.es/20090727/deportes/ciclismo/fiesta-privada-contador-20090727.html

But I can't figure out the source of that story. An interview with Contador? Someone else? What?

 

[Carboncrank]

Can someone who knows Spanish figure out the source of this:



I know the Spanish original is this:
www.diariosur.es/20090727/deportes/ciclismo/fiesta-privada-contador-20090727.html

But I can't figure out the source of that story. An interview with Contador? Someone else? What?

The article is not sourced and hasn't been confirmed anywhere else.

I'm not buying. His brother was with him, I don't know how many days. My guess is someone saw him drive AC away from the hotel and the rest is a flight of fancy.

 

[Anonymous]

Before the Tour started Alberto was stating, publicly, that he considered Lance (and Levi) to be competition. Whatever happened happened before they got to the Tour, and I've never heard even a hint that it was because of Lance's tweets.

Levi, by the way, made no such tweets, AFAIK, and he was considered to be an adversary by AC before the start of the Tour too.

Lance may have his trailer trash no father self-esteem issues, but Alberto might actually be a little bit nuts.

Or not that smart. It may sound bad to say, but I get the impression that his gifts lie in his physical abilityes and not his intellectual ones, but that is just a personal observation.

I think the quote by Contador you refer to was in response to something Lance said before that regarding there not being just one leader if I remember correctly.

 

[frizzlefry]

The article is not sourced and hasn't been confirmed anywhere else.

I'm not buying. His brother was with him, I don't know how many days. My guess is someone saw him drive AC away from the hotel and the rest is a flight of fancy.

Most likely L'equipe.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Or not that smart. It may sound bad to say, but I get the impression that his gifts lie in his physical abilityes and not his intellectual ones, but that is just a personal observation.

I think the quote by Contador you refer to was in response to something Lance said before that regarding there not being just one leader if I remember correctly.

Totally agree with you on this assessment of AC with respect to physical vs. intellectual abilities.

As to the quote, it was reported on June 15 in cyclingnews:

"I will have to deal with [Denis] Menchov, [Cadel] Evans, the Schleck brothers, [Carlos] Sastre and my teammates Armstrong and Leipheimer," he told Italian newspaper La Gazzetta dello Sport yesterday.

www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-considers-armstrong-and-leipheimer-tour-rivals

This was completely unprovoked as far as I can tell, probably something brewing since the camp. That was even before the Noval/Horner not going announcement.

As to when they were together, it was back in December in the Canary Islands camp. I suspect that's when the seeds were sewn for this whole debacle, and neither us have any clue as to what happened there.

But I speculate that a guy like Contador felt intimidated but didn't want to show it, and ended up appearing aloof and distant, or something like that. Armstrong may have made a gesture to reach out that was rebuffed. Who knows? It might have been even more subtle than that. But something happened at some point, probably there, that made LA feel justified in tweeting about how much AC had to learn, and for AC to feel that LA and LL are rivals.

 

[Carboncrank]

Or not that smart. It may sound bad to say, but I get the impression that his gifts lie in his physical abilityes and not his intellectual ones, but that is just a personal observation.

Damn! another point we're agreed on.

you want to argue just for the sake of arguing?

 

[lanceismyhero]

Damn! another point we're agreed on.

you want to argue just for the sake of arguing?

Carbon the crank has not said anything coherent since he parachuted into these forums. Contador appears dumb because english is not his native tongue and the translations keep getting butchered. As he stated, no matter what he says , the press will say what they want him to say.

 

[Publicus]

Totally agree with you on this assessment of AC with respect to physical vs. intellectual abilities.

As to the quote, it was reported on June 15 in cyclingnews:



www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-considers-armstrong-and-leipheimer-tour-rivals

This was completely unprovoked as far as I can tell, probably something brewing since the camp. That was even before the Noval/Horner not going announcement.

As to when they were together, it was back in December in the Canary Islands camp. I suspect that's when the seeds were sewn for this whole debacle, and neither us have any clue as to what happened there.

But I speculate that a guy like Contador felt intimidated but didn't want to show it, and ended up appearing aloof and distant, or something like that. Armstrong may have made a gesture to reach out that was rebuffed. Who knows? It might have been even more subtle than that. But something happened at some point, probably there, that made LA feel justified in tweeting about how much AC had to learn, and for AC to feel that LA and LL are rivals.

There is nothing provocative about identifying who the best riders/GC candidates are including those on your team. Was he incorrect? Weren't Levi and Lance jocking for podium positions, if not the win?

Maybe Lance was intimidated by a guy that had done something he could never do (when 3 Grand Tours in a 15 month period and before the age of 26). Or Alberto made a gesture and was rebuffed. As you say, none of us know, so why speculate one way or the other?

Things are often as simple as they seem. Lance criticized him publicly. Whatever happened before that, is immaterial to that fact. He made the decision (whether calculated or otherwise) and set their "relationship" on its current trajectory. Everything flows from this first public point.

 

[Psalmon]

Contador Dimwitted?

I'm sorry, but I think it is quite hard to "observe" if someone is more or less intellectual without much contact, and especially when they are speaking a language not your own.

I feel lucky to understand him well enough until the translating guy voiceovers with that medium, B-flat voice, translating Basque Spanish into English with a Russian accent. That always makes everybody sound dimwitted (NOT a Russian comment, besides those guys speak 10 languages). I mean half the cold war was caused by the stupid sounding voiceover guys who made Gorbachev (or our Guy) sound like some idiot with Novacaine and marbles in his mouth.

I think we're all forgetting that Alberto is a kid (sorry if any of you are 26 and take offense, but that's it). He is a kid who has been thrust onto the WORLD stage, and forced to catch more arrows than I ever could at that point in my life.
- One day you're second in the TdF, Chicken's out, Ooop! you're the yellow jersey
- Sorry you can't defend this year, Ooop! because of some dopers from Kazakstan
- Ooop!, Lance wants back in, he's the man!
- Who's the leader? Drum drum drum. Hey did you see only Sparticus beat me? Oooop! Ya, but what'd you think of Lance?
- Twitter, Oooop! You were stupid and missed the crosswind!
- Lance says he's the leader, deserves respect. Who's the leader Alberto?
- Made a mistake, attacked his own team, publicity campaign, Alberto is not a good teammate. Oooop! (again was a mistake, but still) Oh I'm so sorry!
- Look I won the ITT big time. Ooop! Radio Shack! Sound of crickets. Chirp.
- Who's going to win on Mt. Ventoux Alberto? Will you help Lance make the podium? Okey Dokey!
- Lance, fish handshake, Oooop! Danish national anthem! Oooop!

I suggest giving the guy the benefit of the doubt. Besides, he's likely to be around on the top step for some time.

 

[Eva Maria]

The article is not sourced and hasn't been confirmed anywhere else.

I'm not buying. His brother was with him, I don't know how many days. My guess is someone saw him drive AC away from the hotel and the rest is a flight of fancy.

The same story was in other German as well as other Spanish news outlets including El Pais, the most widely read newspaper in Spain.

For anyone that has had any interaction with Armstrong these type of juvenile head games are no surprise. He knows his gullible fans will continue to believe in miracles and never question the myth.

 

[Carboncrank]

There is nothing provocative about identifying who the best riders/GC candidates are including those on your team.

It is very very rare to be claiming teammates are you rivals on a grand tour team.

I think it was a great tactic, that may have been mostly ruse, to portray the teams as having 4 possible winners and to continue to do so far into the race.
With a close GC in later stages starting at 15 you could confuse teams about who the real threat was. as it turns out Lance couldn't attack on 15 and AC did and the rest is history.

 

[Carboncrank]

The same story was in other German as well as other Spanish news outlets including El Pais, the most widely read newspaper in Spain.

For anyone that has had any interaction with Armstrong these type of juvenile head games are no surprise. He knows his gullible fans will continue to believe in miracles and never question the myth.

No.. wait. the spanish story still unsoursed shows up in a German paper. if it's a reprint of the spanish article, it is still not sourced.

do you have the article? i'll find out if it has a source.
send the url.. ...

 

[Eva Maria]

No.. wait. the spanish story still unsoursed shows up in a German paper. if it's a reprint of the spanish article, it is still not sourced.

do you have the article? i'll find out if it has a source.
send the url.. ...

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/deportes/uomo/solo/comando/elpepidep/20090727elpepidep_2/Tes

It appears that the "French Conspiracy" Defense is now being replaced by the "Spanish Media" conspiracy.

I also heard the story (and others) directly from two friends working the Tour on the broadcast side.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

There is nothing provocative about identifying who the best riders/GC candidates are including those on your team. Was he incorrect? Weren't Levi and Lance jocking for podium positions, if not the win?

Identifying anyone as a rival, especially a teammate, is provocative.

Maybe Lance was intimidated by a guy that had done something he could never do (when 3 Grand Tours in a 15 month period and before the age of 26). Or Alberto made a gesture and was rebuffed. As you say, none of us know, so why speculate one way or the other?

Things are often as simple as they seem. Lance criticized him publicly. Whatever happened before that, is immaterial to that fact. He made the decision (whether calculated or otherwise) and set their "relationship" on its current trajectory. Everything flows from this first public point.

Whatever happened before that is not immaterial, because it could easily explain if not justify why Lance criticized him publicly.

I know of no reason to believe that "everything flows from this first public point".

 

[Ninety5rpm]

I'm sorry, but I think it is quite hard to "observe" if someone is more or less intellectual without much contact, and especially when they are speaking a language not your own.

I feel lucky to understand him well enough until the translating guy voiceovers with that medium, B-flat voice, translating Basque Spanish into English with a Russian accent. That always makes everybody sound dimwitted (NOT a Russian comment, besides those guys speak 10 languages). I mean half the cold war was caused by the stupid sounding voiceover guys who made Gorbachev (or our Guy) sound like some idiot with Novacaine and marbles in his mouth.

I think we're all forgetting that Alberto is a kid (sorry if any of you are 26 and take offense, but that's it). He is a kid who has been thrust onto the WORLD stage, and forced to catch more arrows than I ever could at that point in my life.
- One day you're second in the TdF, Chicken's out, Ooop! you're the yellow jersey
- Sorry you can't defend this year, Ooop! because of some dopers from Kazakstan
- Ooop!, Lance wants back in, he's the man!
- Who's the leader? Drum drum drum. Hey did you see only Sparticus beat me? Oooop! Ya, but what'd you think of Lance?
- Twitter, Oooop! You were stupid and missed the crosswind!
- Lance says he's the leader, deserves respect. Who's the leader Alberto?
- Made a mistake, attacked his own team, publicity campaign, Alberto is not a good teammate. Oooop! (again was a mistake, but still) Oh I'm so sorry!
- Look I won the ITT big time. Ooop! Radio Shack! Sound of crickets. Chirp.
- Who's going to win on Mt. Ventoux Alberto? Will you help Lance make the podium? Okey Dokey!
- Lance, fish handshake, Oooop! Danish national anthem! Oooop!

I suggest giving the guy the benefit of the doubt. Besides, he's likely to be around on the top step for some time.

His translated statements are not the only reasons to believe he got shorted in the brains department. Some of his decisions during the Tour are reasons too.

 

[Publicus]

Identifying anyone as a rival, especially a teammate, is provocative.


Whatever happened before that is not immaterial, because it could easily explain if not justify why Lance criticized him publicly.

I know of no reason to believe that "everything flows from this first public point".

Ok. Thanks for sharing your opinion.