Eki frustrated by AC's comments

[Cobber]

rider A and rider B are not equal in this situation and its incorrect to hold them to the same standard.

Rider B just won the Tour de France. The greatest achievement in his profession.

Rider A did not.

Wrong... Rider A won the Tour de France. Rider B is bitter about that fact!

 

[Carboncrank]

So we agree: You and Lance are hypocrites. So how easy that was?

Well, I'd say any idiot can see that the comparison is invalid and a complete straw man argument, but it's apparent that despite my best efforts, that's not the case.

 

[Carboncrank]

Wrong... Rider A won the Tour de France. Rider B is bitter about that fact!

Nawww... rider B proved his point in spades.

Seeing Contador on Lance's wheel for 2k inside the last 5 on Vontoux was a joy to behold.
He didn't need to win it to expose the forum nutjobs as chair bound cranks.

 

[Anonymous]

To be clear, I agree that AC has no obligation to see LA as a mentor. But "never admired him" is going way beyond that. I don't know about you, but I would have a difficult time having a productive/positive relationship with someone who has very little respect for me, which we know is the case with someone who is willing to openly say he doesn't, and never had, admiration for the other.

I think we are close here. My question to you is: What true "respect" did Lance show to Contador. He NEVER showed him the respect of keeping their relationship and his critiques of Contador private. A mentor doesn't tweet his feelings to the world and then come back and say, "now you should listen to me." When you humiliate someone, as Lance did when he tweeted his "lot to learn" tweet, he destroyed any chance of being a "mentor" because any real "mentor" wouldn't hold up the person they are helping to public scorn, especially not on that level.

But Lance's point was never to be a "mentor." He isn't built that way. His point was to get the spotlight, or as much of it as he could. There is no way you believe otherwise because it is nonsensical. Real guidance and help can involve correction and brutal honesty, just not when it is done in front of others. Making it public is just a further sign of what Mr Armstrong really is. It has nothing to do with "relationship building." To suggest that there was genuine desire on the part of Mr Armstrong to be a "mentor" to Contador is belied by the actions Mr Armstrong undertook before and during the Tour.

Lance is an ***, and I have met and know people who have worked with him, and not one has ever said differently. In fact, you will be hard pressed to find anyone who knows the man who would suggest he could be humble enough to be a true "mentor" to anyone.

 

[Publicus]

Well, I'd say any idiot can see that the comparison is invalid and a complete straw man argument, but it's apparent that despite my best efforts, that's not the case.

Invalid? I don't think you know what the word means.

One co-team leader owes thanks because of the team's effort on his behalf because he won, but the other co-team leader doesn't because he came in third. The amount of work and sacrifice done by the team on behalf of the team leader's is irrelevant. It is only the leader's final podium position that is determinative on the question.

That I believe sums up your argument, correct?

So I expect that 19 other team leaders did not thank there team mates for their efforts. And in your mind, that's the correct outcome.

 

[lanceismyhero]

Contador has more serious health problems than Lance. I think that makes Lance bitter. Moreover, Contador is modest about his health problems unlike Lance who brags constantly. Contador was in a 10 day coma for goodness sakes: cerebral cavernoma, a congenital vascular disorder, for which he underwent a risky surgery after spending 10 days in a coma.

Who else but contador could win an endurace race with a vascular condition? testicular cancer is a nuisance but it does not affect your endurance in the long run.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm truly amazed at the amount of energy expended on this topic.
.
Is anybody here a professional Lance defamer or promoter? Is there any money in this?
.

Nope. Just a place to sink a crazy amount of time arguing over nothing.

 

[Anonymous]

anybody can do well in a tt if they have lots of reserves from letting everyone else do their work. Armstrong is a show boater and feat accomplisher. he lets everyone do all his work and then puts all his energy in when everyone is looking. This is best illustrated by the fact that armstrong only did well on the tour de france by taking it easy in the other races during the season.

What's your freaking point? That he's tactically astute?

 

[lanceismyhero]

What's your freaking point? That he's tactically astute?

My main point is that Lance is a weasal. A parasite that sucks the life out of his team mates. Its a bike race. Its not calculus. Let get serious, Lance is white trash who dropped out of high school. If you want to recognize cleverness, compliment a brain surgeon or computer programmer. you could teach bike tactics to a chimpanzee.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't understand what this is supposed to demonstrate regarding the issue at hand (why Lance's response about team mates was appropriate when AC was answering a question about AC and Lance's relationship). It doesn't justify Lance's over the top response, or suggest that the fault is with AC for not capitulating to Lance's clear psychological disorder.

In fact, it demonstrates that Lance needs counseling. There is nothing healthy about what 95rpm is imputing to Lance. And yet he apparently sees nothing wrong with this situation except that AC didn't capitulate to Lance's narcosis. Amazing...

My point is this is not the first time Lance has behaved similarly. Of course there was no twitter back then which makes a difference.

I'd be careful in thinking AC is entirely without blame.

 

[lanceismyhero]

Well, I'd say any idiot can see that the comparison is invalid and a complete straw man argument, but it's apparent that despite my best efforts, that's not the case.

This is supposed to be an adult forum for smart adults to discuss pro cycling. No one participating is this kind of discussion should be pro Lance.

 

[Anonymous]

My main point is that Lance is a weasal. A parasite that sucks the life out of his team mates. Its a bike race. Its not calculus. Let get serious, Lance is white trash who dropped out of high school. If you want to recognize cleverness, compliment a brain surgeon or computer programmer. you could teach bike tactics to a chimpanzee.

Really dude? So you are saying AC is dumber than a monkey?

One thing that will forever be true. A sure sign of the debate loser is when the name calling starts.

 

[Anonymous]

....Roberto who?

Yeah, I left him and Acevedo (spelling??) out. I kind of looked at Heras at a "hired gun". Same with Ace once Heras left.

 

[Publicus]

My point is this is not the first time Lance has behaved similarly. Of course there was no twitter back then which makes a difference.

I'd be careful in thinking AC is entirely without blame.

So because he's acted like a narcissistic a$$, he's not only given a pass for doing it in the future, but those that don't capitulate to his narcissism are to blame for the necessary outcome that follows?


And I'm just taking the theory 95rpm has advanced, and you've endorsed, and applying it to this situation. It's an unflattering picture of Lance, frankly, and makes me curious how anyone can justify, let alone DEFEND, him on this issue.

Other than not having the good sense to capitulate to Lance's desires, what exactly do you suggest AC did wrong?

 

[lanceismyhero]

Really dude? So you are saying AC is dumber than a monkey?

One thing that will forever be true. A sure sign of the debate loser is when the name calling starts.

AC is a monkey but that is another discussion. I didnt insult you or even repeat the rampant rumours about you. In fact, I condemn all the people spreading the information that you like little boys.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

I think we are close here. My question to you is: What true "respect" did Lance show to Contador. He NEVER showed him the respect of keeping their relationship and his critiques of Contador private. A mentor doesn't tweet his feelings to the world and then come back and say, "now you should listen to me." When you humiliate someone, as Lance did when he tweeted his "lot to learn" tweet, he destroyed any chance of being a "mentor" because any real "mentor" wouldn't hold up the person they are helping to public scorn, especially not on that level.

Again, I agree with you in general, but I don't know of any public comments that LA made that rise to level of humiliating AC, certainly not in the weeks and months prior to the Tour. More importantly, I'm pretty sure their relations were already cool at that point, which is confirmed by AC's recent comment ("I've never admired him").

But Lance's point was never to be a "mentor." He isn't built that way. His point was to get the spotlight, or as much of it as he could. There is no way you believe otherwise because it is nonsensical. Real guidance and help can involve correction and brutal honesty, just not when it is done in front of others. Making it public is just a further sign of what Mr Armstrong really is. It has nothing to do with "relationship building." To suggest that there was genuine desire on the part of Mr Armstrong to be a "mentor" to Contador is belied by the actions Mr Armstrong undertook before and during the Tour.

I suggest that the cause of the failure of the relationship is just as at least as likely, probably more likely, to lie with I've-never-admired-him-AC as it does with LA.

Lance is an ***, and I have met and know people who have worked with him, and not one has ever said differently.

I don't doubt that. But there is something to be said for being able to tolerate and even respect and admire certain assholes.

In fact, you will be hard pressed to find anyone who knows the man who would suggest he could be humble enough to be a true "mentor" to anyone.

Lot's not get hung up on the semantics of what "true" mentor is, or the role that "mentoring" (whatever that meant to LA) not happening played in souring their relationship. Again, the problem seems to be much deeper, including perhaps AC's possible intolerance of assholes.

 

[Anonymous]

AC is a monkey but that is another discussion. I didnt insult you or even repeat the rampant rumours about you. In fact, I condemn all the people spreading the information that you like little boys.

You are proving my point. Just keep going please.

 

[Anonymous]

So because he's acted like a narcissistic a$$, he's not only given a pass for doing it in the future, but those that don't capitulate to his narcissism are to blame for the necessary outcome that follows?


And I'm just taking the theory 95rpm has advanced, and you've endorsed, and applying it to this situation. It's an unflattering picture of Lance, frankly, and makes me curious how anyone can justify, let alone DEFEND, him on this issue.

Other than not having the good sense to capitulate to Lance's desires, what exactly do you suggest AC did wrong?

Merry-go-round time. For whatever reason part of the team and the DS did not seem to appreciate elements of how AC raced and conducted himself during the TdF. These situations are rarely, if ever, as one sided as you seem to believe.

 

[Publicus]

Interesting. Remember Kevin Livingston? Went to work for Ullrich & LA was none too happy, I think at least in part if not in total, for the the reason you state above. Hamilton, Landis, Boonen and Levi Leipheimer are a few others that come to mind.

I don't understand what this is supposed to demonstrate regarding the issue at hand (why Lance's response about team mates was appropriate when AC was answering a question about AC and Lance's relationship). It doesn't justify Lance's over the top response, or suggest that the fault is with AC for not capitulating to Lance's clear psychological disorder.

In fact, it demonstrates that Lance needs counseling. There is nothing healthy about what 95rpm is imputing to Lance. And yet he apparently sees nothing wrong with this situation except that AC didn't capitulate to Lance's narcosis. Amazing...

My point is this is not the first time Lance has behaved similarly. Of course there was no twitter back then which makes a difference.

I'd be careful in thinking AC is entirely without blame.

So because he's acted like a narcissistic a$$, he's not only given a pass for doing it in the future, but those that don't capitulate to his narcissism are to blame for the necessary outcome that follows?


And I'm just taking the theory 95rpm has advanced, and you've endorsed, and applying it to this situation. It's an unflattering picture of Lance, frankly, and makes me curious how anyone can justify, let alone DEFEND, him on this issue.

Other than not having the good sense to capitulate to Lance's desires, what exactly do you suggest AC did wrong?

Merry-go-round time. For whatever reason part of the team and the DS did not seem to appreciate elements of how AC raced and conducted himself during the TdF. These situations are rarely, if ever, as one sided as you seem to believe.

Sorry for re-posting the whole thread, but I fear you've lost sight of my original question.

 

[Anonymous]

Again, I agree with you in general, but I don't know of any public comments that LA made that rise to level of humiliating AC,

Imagine that you won 3 GT's and an old friend of your DS's comes back. That guy was a great rider. That guy then makes an unflattering comment about you, not to your face, not to our DS's face, not to the team, but to millions of people. If you understand the pride that Lance has, then you must understand that Contador has a similar pride. Anyone would be insulted and feel humiliation at such a statement and you know it.

I hear what you believe, and we are both entitled, but I think the problem really started there.

As to Contador saying he "never" had respect for Lance as a person. I think clearly that is not an honest statement and was meant as a retaliatory one.(understandably) He even said during the Tour that he always looked up to Lance. I think he now realizes that he never had any reason to, and is filling in that hole.

Contador was never treated with the respect that any other team leader who is that strong would receive. It isn't like he was bluffing about what a badass he was. Also note that EVERYONE who watched Lance when he was similarly dominating would have EVER suggested that he would have shared ANY of his leadership of the team. Why shouldn't Contador expect that Lance would have the same respect for him that Lance always demanded of his teammates?

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Imagine that you won 3 GT's and an old friend of your DS's comes back. That guy was a great rider. That guy then makes an unflattering comment about you, not to your face, not to our DS's face, not to the team, but to millions of people. If you understand the pride that Lance has, then you must understand that Contador has a similar pride. Anyone would be insulted and feel humiliation at such a statement and you know it.

I hear what you believe, and we are both entitled, but I think the problem really started there.

As to Contador saying he "never" had respect for Lance as a person. I think clearly that is not an honest statement and was meant as a retaliatory one.(understandably) He even said during the Tour that he always looked up to Lance. I think he now realizes that he never had any reason to, and is filling in that hole.

Contador was never treated with the respect that any other team leader who is that strong would receive. It isn't like he was bluffing about what a badass he was. Also note that EVERYONE who watched Lance when he was similarly dominating would have EVER suggested that he would have shared ANY of his leadership of the team. Why shouldn't Contador expect that Lance would have the same respect for him that Lance always demanded of his teammates?

There are teammates, and there are teammates who are champions. You can't expect to treat a champion-teammate like any other teammate.
This goes for both of them.

I don't know why you think it started with that twitter statement. Do you? Just because that's the first time you learned of an issue between them?

I think it's just as likely that that tweet back in March or whatever reflected a problem, and probably exacerbated that problem, that was already brewing by then. Hadn't they already been in a training camp together by then? If so, I wonder what happened there.

 

[Hugh Januss]

If Armstrong intended his criticisms of Contador to be "constructive" maybe he should have texted or e-mailed or picked up a telephone and maybe called? That he chose to tw atter them to his own legion of followers suggests at least to me that constructive criticism was never the intent.Tell me I'm wrong.

 

[Carboncrank]

Allow me to disagree without being too disgreeable?

Imagine

you won 3 GT's and an old friend of your DS's comes back. That guy was a great rider. That guy then makes an unflattering comment about you, not to your face, not to our DS's face, not to the team, but to millions of people. If you understand the pride that Lance has, then you must understand that Contador has a similar pride. Anyone would be insulted and feel humiliation at such a statement and you know it.

what statement do you mean?

I hear what you believe, and we are both entitled, but I think the problem really started there.

As to Contador saying he "never" had respect for Lance as a person. I think clearly that is not an honest statement and was meant as a retaliatory one.(understandably) He even said during the Tour that he always looked up to Lance. I think he now realizes that he never had any reason to, and is filling in that hole.

Understandable for AC, would have been a sign of mental illness for Lance.

Contador was never treated with the respect that any other team leader who is that strong would receive. It isn't like he was bluffing about what a badass he was. Also note that EVERYONE who watched Lance when he was similarly dominating would have EVER suggested that he would have shared ANY of his leadership of the team. Why shouldn't Contador expect that Lance would have the same respect for him that Lance always demanded of his teammates?

I haven't been able to did up behind the scene in the tour but in other races and training camps other riders said he acted like just one of the guys, not like anything special there was no other grumbling that came from any other race this year that I know of.

 

[avantage]

Hard to realize perhaps on an English speaking website, that the world is so much bigger than the fanbase of LA.
I'm sure on Spanish boards this story is entirely different.

Very sad to see a Tour winner attacked threated like this.


Anyway. Radio sucks can try all the team tactics in the world next year to beat the best guy around. Until they succeed they should shut the **** up.

 

[Anonymous]

Allow me to disagree without being too disgreeable?

Imagine

what statement do you mean?


Understandable for AC, would have been a sign of mental illness for Lance.


I haven't been able to did up behind the scene in the tour but in other races and training camps other riders said he acted like just one of the guys, not like anything special there was no other grumbling that came from any other race this year that I know of.

I think that maybe much of the contention did not manifest itself until they actually got to the Tour. I also think that is understandable. Honestly, the thing that it shows most clearly is that you just cannot have to TRUE alpha males fighting for the same piece of real estate without some wounds happening.

This may sound goofy, but if you watch animal shows about lions and gorillas and the like, you will see the base nature of what drove the situation. Some people have it in them to dominate those around them. It is common among males of any species for there to be competition for _______________. I think we all exhibit that characteristic to a greater or lesser extent. However, in any given situation where there is real competition, one male will be the strongest. As that male ages, another younger male will come along and supplant the older males authority. When that happens, don't expect the older male to be happy about it, and don't expect the younger to show much of anything in the way of generosity.

I dislike Mr Armstrong for specific things. In reality, this isn't one of them. I may have talked a lot of shit about it, but in reality, I wouldn't have expected the situation to have been any different than it was.

Anyway, its nice to discuss this without the mud.