Eki frustrated by AC's comments

[Publicus]

Point out whatever you want. Read the dude's comments. He is saying that Zubeldia's comments are "proof" that those of us questioning AC as a good teamate are wrong. I'm saying those comments don't prove anything and, in fact, there are at least two others involved who seem to believe AC has not been a good teamate, LA and Eki.

Well Zubeldia's comments directly contradict Lance's statement that Contador never thanked his teammates.

The simple solution here is to point out why Zubeldia should be disbelieved or why Lance and Eki are MORE credible on this point. Others have argued WHY Lance and Eki are less credible on this point (me included), so take up the other side.

 

[Publicus]

I feel sorry for poor Zubeldia.

First he helps drive the Stage 3 break for LA, so all the AC fans think he is el bastardo..
and now he says that AC did indeed thank his team, so now all the LA fans think he is a traitor and a friend of cancer..... poor guy.

Rock meet hard place.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

Could you please explain the Basque/Spanish situation for me?

I'm sure Wiki would be more complete than myself but basically, it is the same as many regions in Europe.

Basque is a specific and separate language. As such the region (which is around the Pyrénées ) and the population have a real, specific identity. Basque language is generally considered as not part of the indo-european languages (unlike French and Spanish)

The very mountainous landscape probably means that they lived fairly quiet for a long part of history. But they are split up by administrative regions: most of the Basque country is part of Spain, yet a smaller area is France.

During the XXth century, Basque nationalism made a return at the time of the Civil War. Franco and the fascists won that one, and the strong central power was not too kind with any form of dissent, esp. regionalism. You even have examples in sport: The Real Madrid Football Club was "Franco's club" (and not just because it was in the capital of Spain), as such the rivalry with Barcelona (Catalunya greatest city) was very much political. The President of FCB was murdered during the civil war by Franco's troops, the club had to go through several problem because of its "Catalanism", had to remove the Catalan flag from its logo, etc...

Nationalism movement in Basque country (and Catalunya) became de facto a resistance movement to Franco regime. Like in Northern Ireland, a clandestine armed movement (ETA) developed in Basque country. They took violent actions against the regime and killed the possible successor of Franco, for instance.

But when Spain turned into a democracy, the revendications didn't die down, even though Spain adopted a fairly decent decentralised system to allow regions to be partly autonomous: ETA continued to take violent action in their revendication for an independant Basque country. Car bombs, political assassinations... The ETA organisation has a political branch (like IRA/Sinn Fein) and has remained active until today.

While France also controls part of the Pays Basque, there was much less trouble, for several reasons. One being that the French Basque country has been considered a "sanctuary/haven" for ETA (no terror attacks -> much less pressure from police).

I suppose the situation is not too different than Bretagne or Corse: majority of the population does not want to break away from France/Spain and does not condone violence. Yet they also have a very strong cultural identity that a self respecting democracy must try to allow and incorpore in the institutions.

Sport is still a vector of the identity. Some Catalan athlets considered at one point asking the IOC to perform under Catalunya's colors.
The Athletic Bilbao football club only hires Basque players (from Spain or France) or formed in Basque clubs.
Euskaltel Euskadi is sponsored by the Basque region (Euskadi) and while there was exceptions to the rule, the vast majority of their riders are Basque or underwent formation in Basque clubs. They had a Venezuelian rider for long, and a French guy (but born in Bayonne, the major Basque city in France).

So, that's why some Spanish may not consider Basque as part of the country anymore (or Basque may not consider Spanish).

I am no specialist, so will be happy to be corrected by one if needed.

Hope that helps.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Thanks for responding 95, I knew I could count on you. As you'll note, I've numbered your paragraphs which will make it easier to respond to your points.

(3): I'm taking this out of order, because it was the point I was trying to address and I don't want anyone thinking I'm ducking or burying the issue. I realized after I posted it that this alternate reading was plausible, and arguably more plausible. So, I'll concede the point that the statement is more likely a reflection of Lance's overall finish and not an implied thank you from Contador.

(1) I've never understood the genesis of this point, and frankly I still don't. Contador was asked a specific question, to which he responded. From there, Lance, via twitter, interjected this notion of thanking the team. Nothing in Contador's response (again to a question about his relationship with Lance) talked about his winning this thing without teammates, or that he didn't need them. So, I'd be interested in you explaining the nexus of Lance's comments and Contador's response. And the fact that Contador hasn't responded to Lance's twits, isn't evidence that he agreed with them or that the twits were true. I don't recall Contador responding to Lance's "he's got a lot to learn" twit either.

(2) "Even if he thanked them publicly after he left France, that's not really thanking them" I assume you must have an incomplete thought here, because it makes no sense. Even if he thanked him, that's not really thanking them? By that standard, no one ever thanks ANYONE.

(4) One could argue that he acknowledged all that Lance did for him this year. Lance and his reported antics provided him motivation. His passive aggressive campaign contributed to his overall dominance this year. Which I think Contador has talked about ad nausem. Without it, he may not win the Tour this year. As for his teammates, excluding Lance's comments to the contrary, what evidence do you have that he didn't thank his teammates? We know he APOLOGIZED to all of them after Stage 17, but we believe that he wouldn't also thank them? Think that one through for a minute. Cares enough about what they think to apologize to them, but doesn't think enough about them to thank them.

(5) Lance's twits make no sense. As I noted above, Contador was responding to a question about his relationship with Armstrong. Not about his teammates or the role they played in his Tour victory. I assume the no personal admiration is what bothered him (and you), so please explain how the appropriate response is to claim that Contador didn't thank his team maters or claimed that he didn't need them?

(6) I believe the only person who believes this is you. You should step back and read your posts and the threads you start to understand why most would find your comments laughable. It would be like me saying that I'm not biased against to Lance. I certainly TRY to be objective, but my disdain for his antics over the last 6 months clearly breaks through.

(3) Thanks.

(1) I understood it as a by-the-way comment rather than a direct response to ACs statement - a suggestion about what he should be saying instead of what he is saying. It's just another example supporting Lance's March tweet that AC still has much to learn. I don't know if any of Lance's thank yous to the his teams in the past were genuine, but I know he had the sense to express them.

(2) My bad. I was just thinking that the time to thank them was while they were still all together in France. Anyway, it's moot since we now agree he didn't even thank Lance here, much less anyone else on the rest of the team.

(4) Given Zubeldia's comment, we know that he privately thanked at least one team member. No evidence of any other thanks, private or public. It's hard to prove that something didn't happen, but nobody else is speaking out to refute an assertion that should be easy to refute, if indeed it is false.

(5) See (1).

(6) I don't deny being human and therefore biased. But my allegiance is to logic, reason, objectivity, justice and fairness, not to Lance or to anyone else. For example, you'll never find me arguing that Lance is clean.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm almost positive that none of them can contradict Zubeldia on this point. If you believe that Contador APOLOGIZED to the entire team for Stage 17, why is it questionable that he also thanked them after every stage? Either you care about what your team mates think or you don't.

And let's be frank, Lance doesn't like him. He refused to celebrate with champagne on days that were good for Alberto, but did so for days that were good for him. And we know that he (Lance) didn't attend the congratulatory dinner on Saturday night (the same day that Contador was putting in FAR more work on Lance's behalf than Lance ever put in for Contador). In short, there is ample (objective) evidence that Lance isn't be honest with his twit.

Now where is the countervailing (objective) evidence that impugns Zubeldia's credibility?

So AC marking AS on Ventoux was in fact working for LA now? Geez, that's like me saying LA not chasing AC to Acalias and not going with the attacks on S17 as actually working for AC. Bullsh!t.

I think we all know LA is not a particularly good teamate. I think it's safe to say he does not like AC. The question is what kind of a teamate is AC? I really think he thinks he's stong enough to race at Silence-Lotto and still win.

 

[Publicus]

(3) Thanks.

(1) I understood it as a by-the-way comment rather than a direct response to ACs statement - a suggestion about what he should be saying instead of what he is saying. It's just another example supporting Lance's March tweet that AC still has much to learn. I don't know if any of Lance's thank yous to the his teams in the past were genuine, but I know he had the sense to express them.

(2) My bad. I was just thinking that the time to thank them was while they were still all together in France. Anyway, it's moot since we now agree he didn't even thank Lance here, much less anyone else on the rest of the team.

(4) Given Zubeldia's comment, we know that he privately thanked at least one team member. No evidence of any other thanks, private or public. It's hard to prove that something didn't happen, but nobody else is speaking out to refute an assertion that should be easy to refute, if indeed it is false.

(5) See (1).

(6) I don't deny being human and therefore biased. But my allegiance is to logic, reason, objectivity, justice and fairness, not to Lance or to anyone else. For example, you'll never find me arguing that Lance is clean.

Why would Contador answer a question about his relationship with Lance Armstrong by thanking his teammates?

EDIT: One other response on item 2. There is no evidence that HE DIDN'T thank them in France other than LA's self-serving twits. Now we have evidence that he thanked his teammates after every stage, and apologized to the entire team after Stage 17. We also know that Lance kept his distance from Contador it took steps to marginalize his successes on the team (champagne celebrations for me, no champagne celebrations for thee), and refused to celebrate Contador's victory with the team.

Obviously this isn't science, but the circumstantial evidence seems to lead me to the conclusion that Lance isn't being truthful on this point.

 

[elapid]

This is proof there is no winning with people, a team-mate has confirmed AC thanked his team-mates personally, for their work but he now has to state it on twitter or something so it can be heard by certain people who have criticised AC since March. The whole argument is you can say what you want in public, it dont make it true and having your closest friends, collegaues agree with you dont make it the truth either, especailly if you are trying to drive an agenda.

I have wondered why if AC was such a bad team-mate, why did anybody on the Astana team go to the winners dinner other than Lance. My experience of 25 yrs plus following cycling is that if a team-mate is that disliked, nobody would have gone to the winners dinner other than Alberto. Find it hard to believe that AC would not have thanked his team-mates at said dinner.

+1. This is getting pretty ridiculous. Lance is the one that made this all public and ugly. Bruyneel didn't help by not telling Lance to pull his head in and stop the antics. Contador doesn't have to thank the team in public. Even if he did, it doesn't make it any more real or heartfelt than personally and individually thanking each of his team mates. Zubeldia has no reason to lie, and Armstrong has carried on like an immature twit and is about as unreliable as anyone can be at this point in time. IMO, Contador has acted with maturity through and after the Tour - he did not submit to Armstrong's tweets or barbs and let his legs do the talking. His post-race comments were honest and few would disagree that Armstrong is a great cyclist but as a person he is an a-s-s. Armstrong's responses were juvenile and ironic. He would be much better to let his legs do the talking as they're obviously much more effective than his mouth.

 

[Publicus]

So AC marking AS on Ventoux was in fact working for LA now? Geez, that's like me saying LA not chasing AC to Acalias and not going with the attacks on S17 as actually working for AC. Bullsh!t.

I think we all know LA is not a particularly good teamate. I think it's safe to say he does not like AC. The question is what kind of a teamate is AC? I really think he thinks he's stong enough to race at Silence-Lotto and still win.

LA not chasing AC wasn't him working for AC, but LA observing the unwritten rules of cycling. And LA TRIED to go with the attacks on Stage 17. He couldn't. And made a mistake that resulted in him losing 2 minutes.

Again, my point is that there is sufficient evidence to question LA et als credibility on this thanking his teammates comment. Tell us why Zubeldia is not credible.

 

[TRDean]

I'm sure Wiki would be more complete than myself but basically, it is the same as many regions in Europe.

Basque is a specific and separate language. As such the region (which is around the Pyrénées ) and the population have a real, specific identity. Basque language is generally considered as not part of the indo-european languages (unlike French and Spanish)

The very mountainous landscape probably means that they lived fairly quiet for a long part of history. But they are split up by administrative regions: most of the Basque country is part of Spain, yet a smaller area is France.

During the XXth century, Basque nationalism made a return at the time of the Civil War. Franco and the fascists won that one, and the strong central power was not too kind with any form of dissent, esp. regionalism. You even have examples in sport: The Real Madrid Football Club was "Franco's club" (and not just because it was in the capital of Spain), as such the rivalry with Barcelona (Catalunya greatest city) was very much political. The President of FCB was murdered during the civil war by Franco's troops, the club had to go through several problem because of its "Catalanism", had to remove the Catalan flag from its logo, etc...

Nationalism movement in Basque country (and Catalunya) became de facto a resistance movement to Franco regime. Like in Northern Ireland, a clandestine armed movement (ETA) developed in Basque country. They took violent actions against the regime and killed the possible successor of Franco, for instance.

But when Spain turned into a democracy, the revendications didn't die down, even though Spain adopted a fairly decent decentralised system to allow regions to be partly autonomous: ETA continued to take violent action in their revendication for an independant Basque country. Car bombs, political assassinations... The ETA organisation has a political branch (like IRA/Sinn Fein) and has remained active until today.

While France also controls part of the Pays Basque, there was much less trouble, for several reasons. One being that the French Basque country has been considered a "sanctuary/haven" for ETA (no terror attacks -> much less pressure from police).

I suppose the situation is not too different than Bretagne or Corse: majority of the population does not want to break away from France/Spain and does not condone violence. Yet they also have a very strong cultural identity that a self respecting democracy must try to allow and incorpore in the institutions.

Sport is still a vector of the identity. Some Catalan athlets considered at one point asking the IOC to perform under Catalunya's colors.
The Athletic Bilbao football club only hires Basque players (from Spain or France) or formed in Basque clubs.
Euskaltel Euskadi is sponsored by the Basque region (Euskadi) and while there was exceptions to the rule, the vast majority of their riders are Basque or underwent formation in Basque clubs. They had a Venezuelian rider for long, and a French guy (but born in Bayonne, the major Basque city in France).

So, that's why some Spanish may not consider Basque as part of the country anymore (or Basque may not consider Spanish).

I am no specialist, so will be happy to be corrected by one if needed.

Hope that helps.

Thank you very much for taking the time to write that!! I am now a more informed person.

 

[Anonymous]

(3) Thanks.

(1) I understood it as a by-the-way comment rather than a direct response to ACs statement - a suggestion about what he should be saying instead of what he is saying. It's just another example supporting Lance's March tweet that AC still has much to learn. I don't know if any of Lance's thank yous to the his teams in the past were genuine, but I know he had the sense to express them.

(2) My bad. I was just thinking that the time to thank them was while they were still all together in France. Anyway, it's moot since we now agree he didn't even thank Lance here, much less anyone else on the rest of the team.

(4) Given Zubeldia's comment, we know that he privately thanked at least one team member. No evidence of any other thanks, private or public. It's hard to prove that something didn't happen, but nobody else is speaking out to refute an assertion that should be easy to refute, if indeed it is false.

(5) See (1).

(6) I don't deny being human and therefore biased. But my allegiance is to logic, reason, objectivity, justice and fairness, not to Lance or to anyone else. For example, you'll never find me arguing that Lance is clean.

1. How would The Uniballer know what was said at either party for the team, he wasn't there.

2. Your false logic of saying you cannot prove a negative, but that therefore suggests he didn't thank the team is duly noted as interesting.

3. His other teammates aren't media whores, unlike The Uniballer, so just because they have not weighed in on the subject means bupkis in terms of whether or not he thanked anyone.

4. Obviously Lance didn't get a thank you. He also didn't get a yellow jersey. He also didn't get a stage win. He also got calluses on his wittle fwingers from tweeting like a 12 year old girl about it. You feel the need to channel his bitterness about all of that. Dang.

As to number 6 on your list, there is no way you wrote that without cracking a smile. No way.

 

[BYOP88]

Tell us why Zubeldia is not credible.

Because he's not from the inner Lance circle?

 

[Cobber]

+1. This is getting pretty ridiculous. Lance is the one that made this all public and ugly. Bruyneel didn't help by not telling Lance to pull his head in and stop the antics. Contador doesn't have to thank the team in public. Even if he did, it doesn't make it any more real or heartfelt than personally and individually thanking each of his team mates. Zubeldia has no reason to lie, and Armstrong has carried on like an immature twit and is about as unreliable as anyone can be at this point in time. IMO, Contador has acted with maturity through and after the Tour - he did not submit to Armstrong's tweets or barbs and let his legs do the talking. His post-race comments were honest and few would disagree that Armstrong is a great cyclist but as a person he is an a-s-s. Armstrong's responses were juvenile and ironic. He would be much better to let his legs do the talking as they're obviously much more effective than his mouth.

+1.............. very well put.

 

[Carboncrank]

Eki, on twitter (typos fixed by me)

Just read cyclingnews.com about Alberto Contador post race press conference comments on Lance Amstrong. Totally disagree and frustrated.

LA is part of the team and not one thankful word to all of the team from AC! NO RESPECT! Sad!

twitter.com/eki_ekimov

The part that bothers me is not what AC says about Lance, it's understandable from his perspective to be at odds with Lance, but it's a different matter altogether to repeatedly not mention anybody on the team that worked for him. Almost like he though if he thanked the team we might mistake that for meaning he loved Lance.

Immature, unproffesional.

 

[Publicus]

The part that bothers me is not what AC says about Lance, it's understandable from his perspective to be at odds with Lance, but it's a different matter altogether to repeatedly not mention anybody on the team that worked for him. Almost like he though if he thanked the team we might mistake that for meaning he loved Lance.

Immature, unproffesional.

It's not odd when you remind yourself that he was responding to a question.

 

[Anonymous]

The part that bothers me is not what AC says about Lance, it's understandable from his perspective to be at odds with Lance, but it's a different matter altogether to repeatedly not mention anybody on the team that worked for him. Almost like he though if he thanked the team we might mistake that for meaning he loved Lance.

Immature, unproffesional.

1. So you both speak Spanish, and listened to the entire news conference? You will have to excuse my amusement at your statement considering the butchering his comments initially took in publications such as Velorag and other English speaking sources. They completely misquoted, and didn't bother to talk about anything else he said in the interview. But you, you know EVERYTHING that was said, just like Lance.

2. If the fracture in the team was what it appeared, why would he thank people he feels did not work for him in any meaningful way? It he said "thank you" when Popo handed him a bottle, that is plenty considering his role in the stage 3 attempt to place Armstrong in a position to get yellow. (something that one can only thank the law of "you reap what you sow" for throwing a monkey wrench into)

Lance is trailer trash.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

What JB said

While JB did not specifically say AC did not thank the team, obviously in the context of AC's comments he did say this:

Sometimes it is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt!

 

[Carboncrank]

+1. This is getting pretty ridiculous. Lance is the one that made this all public and ugly. Bruyneel didn't help by not telling Lance to pull his head in and stop the antics. Contador doesn't have to thank the team in public. Even if he did, it doesn't make it any more real or heartfelt than personally and individually thanking each of his team mates. Zubeldia has no reason to lie, and Armstrong has carried on like an immature twit and is about as unreliable as anyone can be at this point in time. IMO, Contador has acted with maturity through and after the Tour - he did not submit to Armstrong's tweets or barbs and let his legs do the talking. His post-race comments were honest and few would disagree that Armstrong is a great cyclist but as a person he is an a-s-s. Armstrong's responses were juvenile and ironic. He would be much better to let his legs do the talking as they're obviously much more effective than his mouth.

You've GOT to be kidding me. Turn the tables, Make Lance the winner and he doesn't thank team.

the forums would have thousand page threads srecaming in all caps.

and these words, public and ugly, antics, tweets or barbs, these are all subjective steming from the fact you don't like the guy in the first place.

Is there some other post of yours where I see your examples of these things he supposedly did? If you are talking about comments about tactics the comments were measured. To point out they weren't Johan's plan or that you don't understand why he did a certain thing falls pretty well short ugly or barbs or what?

 

[BYOP88]

Quote:
Sometimes it is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt!


Lance pay attention.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Lance is trailer trash.

Oh, now there's an intelligent statement.

 

[Publicus]

While JB did not specifically say AC did not thank the team, obviously in the context of AC's comments he did say this:

In context his statement is meaningless. It could just as easily be directed at Lance--who was better served by keeping quiet since Contador was responding to a direct question. Lance's response sounds foolish since it is unrelated to the question at hand: their relationship.

 

[Anonymous]

While JB did not specifically say AC did not thank the team, obviously in the context of AC's comments he did say this:

And the two have nothing to do with each other. If you need someone to translate that quote, I am willing to help.

Again, you fail the logic test and then only muster up enough nerve to comment on my little Lance factoid...telling, very telling.

 

[Publicus]

You've GOT to be kidding me. Turn the tables, Make Lance the winner and he doesn't thank team.

Has Lance thanked the team? Did he thank Contador for his work on Ventoux? We know he blew off the team dinner Saturday night to celebrate Contador's victory. We know how sour he was on the podium. We know he didn't twit a thank you either.

Should the absence of a public thank you be evidence that there wasn't a private one?

 

[Anonymous]

Has Lance thanked the team? Did he thank Contador for his work on Ventoux? We know he blew off the team dinner Saturday night to celebrate Contador's victory. We know how sour he was on the podium. We know he didn't twit a thank you either.

Should the absence of a public thank you be evidence that there wasn't a private one?

..whats good for the goose...

Clear, precise, crystal.

 

[Carboncrank]

Lance is trailer trash.

And you are widely know as a self-righteous, piece of dung with an undeserved high opinion of yourself.

 

[TRDean]

And you are widely know as a self-righteous, piece of dung with an undeserved high opinion of yourself.

I kinda like what TFF brings to the table...