electronic campagnolo groupo; yea or nay?

[Benotti69]

..find below a post from another forum that has an interesting read on the merits of the Campy vs Shimano systems and has included/added a very good question...

Di2 shifting is very slow compared to analog. They're claiming that their [Campagnolo's] electronic is faster than analog.

I'd like to see that claim backed up with some testing, since analog is virtually 0.000 seconds by the simple concept of: once you pull on a cable, that cable is pulling on something and mechanical system are direct actions, not delayed.

...some feedback on this would be most wonderful as I don't have a clue how to guage the correctness of the observations made in the above quote ...ie is one electrically powered system in fact faster than the other system and how do they compare to purely mechanical systems

Cheers

blutto

Movistar have been the crash test dummies on this new Campag electronic system so there has to be some truth to it.
I hope they have thrashed it as much as possible for campag to get a true idea of its ability and reliability.

 

[ksmith]

Gee, I thought Evans won the TdF...oh wait, he was on shimano equipped bicycles. How about the podium...nope, no sram, Polka Dot? Nope, Sprinter winner, nope...

Another 'end of Campagnolo' thread. Do ya suppose Rolex is going under because they aren't just like Casio of Seiko? How about Porsche, Audi?. Ducati? They aren't like Honda, Toyota or even Mazda. The low end makers are trying to emulate the Mercedes, Audis, Porsche of the world, not the other way around(Lexus, Infiniti, Acura).

Campagnolo is the premium brand and they know their niche. It is NOT $1200 trekspecializedgiant, It is $6000 Colnagos.

They are a prmium brand, manfactured in Europe, not cheap crap made in asia(sram).

It seems that compag lately are trying to emulate the lower end makers, and really not doing a good job.

 

[richwagmn]

You need to check your facts buddy boy.

Correct me...


Ramped cassettes - Shimano
Indexed shifting - Shimano (first twist tooth, then hyperglide)
Brifters - Shimano
Dual pivot brakes - Shimano
Ramped chain rings - Shimano

What am I missing?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Correct me...


Ramped cassettes - Shimano
Indexed shifting - Shimano (first twist tooth, then hyperglide)
Brifters - Shimano
Dual pivot brakes - Shimano
Ramped chain rings - Shimano

What am I missing?

Bustedknuckle already got to your dilemma this morning. Making broad sweeping generalizations that aren't true like "30 years of copying Shimano" doesn't fly to well here no matter the topic.

 

[BroDeal]

Seems gimmicky compared to Di2. Sweep the entire cassette with a long button press? Who cares?

A fool who has obviously never used Campy weighs in with his opinion that a feature that all Campy users love is a gimmick. Nice one. Next up, richwagmn tells us that long lasting, rebuildable components are also a gimmick.

 

[Race Radio]

Correct me...


Ramped cassettes - Shimano
Indexed shifting - Shimano (first twist tooth, then hyperglide)
Brifters - Shimano
Dual pivot brakes - Shimano
Ramped chain rings - Shimano

What am I missing?

Altenburger invented dual pivot brakes.
Sun Tour invented index shifting
Would anyone really claim the word "Brifters"?

You missed Biopace

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I'm going to run analog Campagnolo until a couple generations from now when electric grouppos are more prevalent. While going electronic on a bike is intriguing, both Campy and Shimano are still in the infancy of this whole genre, and I never buy any electronic components no matter what it is when it first comes out. Need to work out the bugs, go through a couple redesigns, and pricing needs to level off as it becomes more commonplace in the market. All for it though, the future,, oooooh-ahhhhhhh.

 

[Parera]

I'm going to run analog Campagnolo until a couple generations from now when electric grouppos are more prevalent. While going electronic on a bike is intriguing, both Campy and Shimano are still in the infancy of this whole genre, and I never buy any electronic components no matter what it is when it first comes out. Need to work out the bugs, go through a couple redesigns, and pricing needs to level off as it becomes more commonplace in the market. All for it though, the future,, oooooh-ahhhhhhh.

Remember how expensive the first digital cameras were? And their quality wasn't anything special compared to film cameras?

Like anything with high R&D costs, 5 years down the road prices will plummet, manufacturing techniques will be optimized thus enabling electric drivetrains to become very commonplace. We will have Chorus electric which will be modestly priced and perform extremely well (we're already seeing that with Ultegra electric; I'm guessing 105 Di2 will come along in ~five years). Nature of the consumer electronics business.

I look at it like GPS cycling computers. No one really needs one, my Garmin really doesn't offer me anything that a $30 cateye wired computer can't offer, but it's a great addition to my hobby (I especially love that I can swap it between every bike I own). GPS didn't solve any problems, but no one makes a stink about them now.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Remember how expensive the first digital cameras were? And their quality wasn't anything special compared to film cameras?

Like anything with high R&D costs, 5 years down the road prices will plummet, manufacturing techniques will be optimized thus enabling electric drivetrains to become very commonplace. We will have Chorus electric which will be modestly priced and perform extremely well (we're already seeing that with Ultegra electric; I'm guessing 105 Di2 will come along in ~five years). Nature of the consumer electronics business.

I look at it like GPS cycling computers. No one really needs one, my Garmin really doesn't offer me anything that a $30 cateye wired computer can't offer, but it's a great addition to my hobby (I especially love that I can swap it between every bike I own). GPS didn't solve any problems, but no one makes a stink about them now.

I won't agree with that analogy because GPS has expanded my routes 3 fold, and you can watch your ride from a birds eye perspective over the terrain in Google Earth, $30 Cateye can't do that, but I understand what you're saying.

 

[Parera]

I won't agree with that analogy because GPS has expanded my routes 3 fold, and you can watch your ride from a birds eye perspective over the terrain in Google Earth, $30 Cateye can't do that, but I understand what you're saying.

Well my Garmin isn't really that fancy; Edge 305. The post ride data is awesome though.

 

[dominiquedamerique]

Sounds noisy

On who did what first - who cares.
Talk about these Campy EPS groups folks.

Looking & listening to the video, rear shifts sound pretty noisy, and it's not the wind nor the whine of the 20000rpm motors. Shimano has always been smooth and quiet; beyond the same 20000rpm motors, chain and cassette combos are quite.

Having ridin Campy, Shimano, and SRAM mechanical systems, it always comes to personal preferences. I enjoy Shimano and SRAM for having control at my finger tips. Shifting with the thumb I never really appreciated. Though as the Campy EPS seems to have lowered the downshift paddles, perhaps the oddity of thumb shifting will be more comfortable - worth testing.

 

[Notso Swift]

I agree, the vids did sound horrible, but I was thinking that was amplified, at least I was hoping that was the case!

The hoods may be comfortable, but those thumb changes are still UGLY

 

[ElChingon]

I agree, the vids did sound horrible, but I was thinking that was amplified, at least I was hoping that was the case!

The hoods may be comfortable, but those thumb changes are still UGLY

The noise is not just a factor of the components alone, but who put them together. I can put my 11 speed up against another typical setup and mine is always stealthy quiet for some reason . Demo setups are just that setup for a demo, its up to the end customer/shop to get it dialed down to the specs desired.

The thumb levers are kind of funky, but will need to do my own double blind test before putting the final ney/aigh on that.

 

[altermod]

What about electronic with triple chainring???

I ride alot of hills and have given up trying to prove to myself I should ride a double chainring. I ride with a Record triple. Having an electronic triple would be great because of all the trimming I wouldn't have to do. Even though that doesn't seem to be much of a problem anyways. But why not?

 

[ultimobici]

Altenburger invented dual pivot brakes.
Sun Tour invented index shifting
Would anyone really claim the word "Brifters"?

You missed Biopace

Genius!

Cassette hubs date back to before WW2 yet Shimano couldn't figure out how to improve on them. So now we have notched splines after a year or two, unless you're on Campag who gave us deep splines in 1999 when they went 9 speed.

10 speed predated Shimano, as did 11 speed.

Where is this idea that Campagnolo is in financial trouble? They are dwarfed by Shimano, but their turnover is not indicative of their demise.

Campagnolo is akin to Mercedes or Porsche whereas Shimano is more like Nissan. Both companies produce super high end product (911 vs GTR) but Campagnolo, like Porsche, don't venture into the supermini market. They tried, briefly with Xenon as Porsche did with the 914 & 924/944 ranges. But both companies returned to what they know and do best - performance kit.

Interesting article I found talks of their turnover over the last few years as well as electronic shifting. Reckoned on 2 more years to launch in 2008. Only a year late, eh?

http://www.bike-eu.com/public/file/archive/20080220-bike_europe_interview_campagnolo2.pdf

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

It seems that compag lately are trying to emulate the lower end makers, and really not doing a good job.

Can you elaborate on this statement? I could use a good laugh.

 

[gregod]

Genius!

Cassette hubs date back to before WW2 yet Shimano couldn't figure out how to improve on them. So now we have notched splines after a year or two, unless you're on Campag who gave us deep splines in 1999 when they went 9 speed.

10 speed predated Shimano, as did 11 speed.

Where is this idea that Campagnolo is in financial trouble? They are dwarfed by Shimano, but their turnover is not indicative of their demise.

Campagnolo is akin to Mercedes or Porsche whereas Shimano is more like Nissan. Both companies produce super high end product (911 vs GTR) but Campagnolo, like Porsche, don't venture into the supermini market. They tried, briefly with Xenon as Porsche did with the 914 & 924/944 ranges. But both companies returned to what they know and do best - performance kit.

Interesting article I found talks of their turnover over the last few years as well as electronic shifting. Reckoned on 2 more years to launch in 2008. Only a year late, eh?

http://www.bike-eu.com/public/file/archive/20080220-bike_europe_interview_campagnolo2.pdf

i like this analogy. i have all three of those brands (although not a GTR) and i think your analysis is spot on.

 

[blutto]

Altenburger invented dual pivot brakes.
Sun Tour invented index shifting
Would anyone really claim the word "Brifters"?

You missed Biopace

...oh yeah.....the late not so lamented Biopace aka in these parts as Biodisgrace...and the AX pedals and cranks...feh!...

...late breaking news, AX has been re-introduced !...

http://www.anglerswarehouse.com.au/product_detail.asp?productnospaces=shimano_ax_1000fb_4979

Cheers

blutto

 

[Race Radio]

Electric? Yeah, Campy has had it for 20 years

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011...ronic-power-shift-eps_198080/attachment/8s-rd

 

[ksmith]

Can you elaborate on this statement? I could use a good laugh.

Try Compags quiting the mountain bike field in 1996.

 

[ultimobici]

Try Compags quiting the mountain bike field in 1996.

Hardly recent, being 15 years ago! Try again.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Try Compags quiting the mountain bike field in 1996.

Have you actually seen or used a Record OR group from 1995/6? I set up many, when Davis Phinney was sponsored by Serotta and he had many OR groups on his MTBs. It worked really well. Had the first 'microdrive' crank that Suntour and shimano copied for over a decade. Had the ability to use a rear COG on the crank, as the crank had the first lockring/casseette system that shimano also coped for years. Best thumbies ever made that Suntour copied. Yep, even had Bullet shifters that sr(p)am copied.

shimano flooded the market, what essentially killed Campagnolo MTB groups and Suntour pretty much altogther. Kinda like what spam is doing now except shimano and Campagnolo are getting stronger in comparison, not weaker.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Try Compags quiting the mountain bike field in 1996.

This is your best answer after I asked you to elaborate on this...

It seems that compag lately are trying to emulate the lower end makers, and really not doing a good job.

By your concept of time do you also think that Campagnolo recently gave up on downtube shifters? Pfffft

 

[ultimobici]

Correct me...


Ramped cassettes - Shimano
Indexed shifting - Shimano (first twist tooth, then hyperglide)
Brifters - Shimano
Dual pivot brakes - Shimano
Ramped chain rings - Shimano

What am I missing?

Quick release lever -Campagnolo 1927 Passo Croche d'Aune

To this day every single Shimano Skewer is to Tullio Campagnolo's design with nary a modification.

Brake quick releases on brake levers since C-Record ensure that it is possible to open the brake pads out without compromising braking.

Water ejecting threads on bottom brackets & pedals in the 70's meant that a properly adjusted BB stayed clean longer than any "sealed" BB i've had since has lasted.

Check out the differences between Dura Ace & Record hubs. Record are not only lighter but they are more serviceable and cheaper to boot!

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Quick release lever -Campagnolo 1927 Passo Croche d'Aune

To this day every single Shimano Skewer is to Tullio Campagnolo's design with nary a modification.

Brake quick releases on brake levers since C-Record ensure that it is possible to open the brake pads out without compromising braking.

Water ejecting threads on bottom brackets & pedals in the 70's meant that a properly adjusted BB stayed clean longer than any "sealed" BB i've had since has lasted.

Check out the differences between Dura Ace & Record hubs. Record are not only lighter but they are more serviceable and cheaper to boot!

Good examples, but richwagmn's argument was in the last 30 years. He was proven wrong before he even posted it.

My only disagreement with what you said is about the hub comparison, DA and Record are very serviceable, one no more than the other, and the difference in weight is 30g between sets, means nothing. Campy's freehub design is far superior though, expect Shimano will copy them and come out with their own deep spline freehub soon with ScRAM in tow.