Eros Poli and Marco Pantani

[Anonymous]

Thus the numerous doping threads attacking Valverde, Vinokourov, the Schlecks, Contador, and pretty much every other rider of note over the past decade or so

Yeah, but who's name invariably pops up along with these guys when accusations are made? Yup, LA...

 

[djconnel]

I was at the finish and will never forget the look of utter joy as Poli glided toward the finish, tossed his hat into the crowd, and raised his arms as he crossed the line. Absolutely great stuff. And I'll equally never forget the look of destruction on Raul Alcala's face as he rolled in long after. That was an all-time great stage.

 

[Polish]

Thus the numerous doping threads attacking Valverde, Vinokourov, the Schlecks, Contador, and pretty much every other rider of note over the past decade or so

Yes, the last decade has seen numerous attacks on many many Dopers.
During the 90's the attacks were not there. No big busts.
But the doping then was prolific - arguably more than the 80's or the 70's.

....you may say things changed in 1999, but that was due to a little 1998 fiasco (ever heard of Festina?), not so much because of a certain Texan winning the Tour. Sorry. Prior to that, the general public lived in blissful ignorance (although the introduction of EPO, particularly among Italian teams, was much talked about in the specialized press and what not). The perception of doping changed because the Festina case was huge and was all over the news, and hence all subsequent scandals were too, forcing the cycling world to do something about it.

Armstrong had little to do with it. There was suspicion about him already in 1999, but not because he was hated throughout the world. Hell, in 1998-99 most people were honestly glad he was winning after his comeback.

Agree - Festina 1998 was a big part of the turning point. But there was not yet the mean attitude. Riders were still given "Health Warnings" when caught doping. Marco Pantani in the 1999 Giro is a case in point.

I would the say the formation of WADA in late 1999 and the EPO Test introduced in 2000 were closer to the turning point in creating a legion of "Doping is EVIL" zealot fans. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it sure changed the way we watch the Pro's race.


Anyway, back to the 1994 Tour de France.
here is an article written the day after Eros won:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-as-indurain-reinforces-his-lead-1414936.html

Anyone else try to "climb in the drops" or descend with your saddle resting on you chest back then after watching Marco do it? You know you did

 

[hrotha]

Agree - Festina 1998 was a big part of the turning point. But there was not yet the mean attitude. Riders were still given "Health Warnings" when caught doping. Marco Pantani in the 1999 Giro is a case in point.

I'd say that was more due to technical limitations in the tests, really. They couldn't prove Pantani's high hematocrit wasn't natural.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Way Back Machine

when did doping start becoming sooo Evil? 1999?

When Continental Under-23's and Juniors were dying of heart attacks. This is the long-forgotten part of the doping story. None of them were ready for the UCI celebrity-making machine yet, so they didn't get any press. In the U.S., brief mentions of 'another mysterious death' in VeloNews was how I read about it.

What person in their right mind DOESN'T see something really, really, REALLY wrong when kids in their physical prime of life are dying of heart attacks?

 

[flicker]

OK, I have always thought that I knew a little about a lot of things, but this is a beautiful image, straight out of Salvador Dali. Would you indulge an ignoramus and take a moment to share with me - and anyone else who found this statement deliciously tempting and utterly bizarre - what happened here? I want to know! I could Google it, but someone who can broadside me with a simple, offhand comment can probably tell it shorter and better.

Molteni who Eddy Merckx rode for was the dominating team in Pro Road Racing.Near the end of Eddys' career while riding for Molteni Sausage company the company was caught dumping a barge load of horse-poo filled sausages into the Mediteranian Sea. The company immedietaly folded and Eddy went to a new sponsor Fiat. The horse-poo Molteni sausages were part of a tax scam by Molteni. I think some of the company went to jail.

 

[VeloCity]

Yeah, but who's name invariably pops up along with these guys when accusations are made? Yup, LA...

Yes, those threads about all of the other suspected dopers are started just to have an excuse to further target Armstrong.

 

[Polish]

When Continental Under-23's and Juniors were dying of heart attacks. This is the long-forgotten part of the doping story. None of them were ready for the UCI celebrity-making machine yet, so they didn't get any press. In the U.S., brief mentions of 'another mysterious death' in VeloNews was how I read about it.

What person in their right mind DOESN'T see something really, really, REALLY wrong when kids in their physical prime of life are dying of heart attacks?

Oh please spare me the drama.

There have been 1000+ times more bicycle commuter deaths than doping deaths. That deserves more press than doping deaths.

Sheesh, more people have probably died from stroke/heart attacks while reading stupid interweb forums than have died from cycle doping.

 

[filipo]

Oh please spare me the drama.

There have been 1000+ times more bicycle commuter deaths than doping deaths. That deserves more press than doping deaths.

Sheesh, more people have probably died from stroke/heart attacks while reading stupid interweb forums than have died from cycle doping.

Spare us the crippled logic. "There have been a bajillion times more deaths from old age than anything else ever. Therefore doping deaths are irrelevant."

 

[Polish]

Spare us the crippled logic. "There have been a bajillion times more deaths from old age than anything else ever. Therefore doping deaths are irrelevant."

Who said anything about doping deaths being irrelevant?

But doping deaths are way way down on the list of reasons for premature deaths in cyclists.

"In 2008, 714 cyclists were killed in the United States in crashes with motor vehicles"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2010/05/19/GR2010051905937.html

Thats about 15 cyclist deaths per week. Week after week.

But if even one young cyclist died this week due to over-doping, the anti-dope zealots would go crazy. Oh my God Oh my God Oh my God.

Could always use some more Bicycle Advocacy zealots.

 

[hrotha]

Maybe it's because the UCI (or anyone else involved in professional cycling really) can do very little about cyclists being killed in lethal crashes out of competition, whereas fighting doping and doping-related deaths is their responsibility? It's just a wild theory of mine, don't mind me.

 

[filipo]

Who said anything about doping deaths being irrelevant?

But doping deaths are way way down on the list of reasons for premature deaths in cyclists.

"In 2008, 714 cyclists were killed in the United States in crashes with motor vehicles"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2010/05/19/GR2010051905937.html

Thats about 15 cyclist deaths per week. Week after week.

But if even one young cyclist died this week due to over-doping, the anti-dope zealots would go crazy. Oh my God Oh my God Oh my God.

Could always use some more Bicycle Advocacy zealots.

I'm always amazed at myself when I deign to respond to ****wits like Polish and their distractions. I suppose I'm only human.

 

[shojii]

+1 Hrotha

Based on recent census results (see http://www.bikesbelong.org/node/910 for citation), around 500,000 US citizens cycle to work. 714 deaths = a 0.143% chance of death. Yes, still tragic, but a low risk proposition nonetheless.

Oh, and generally accidental. As opposed to a deaths of kid cyclists who are encouraged their peers/coaches/directeurs sportif to 'fall in' with the system...

 

[Polish]

+1 Hrotha

Based on recent census results (see http://www.bikesbelong.org/node/910 for citation), around 500,000 US citizens cycle to work. 714 deaths = a 0.143% chance of death. Yes, still tragic, but a low risk proposition nonetheless.

Oh, and generally accidental. As opposed to a deaths of kid cyclists who are encouraged their peers/coaches/directeurs sportif to 'fall in' with the system...

Bicycle Commuter deaths are "low risk" and "accidental"?

C'mon.

Bicycle Doping deaths are even lower risk (< 0.143%, crunch the numbers) and are accidental also. More Pro's are killed by cars/trucks than dope.

A bicyclist dies riding home from work after picking peppers in a scorching field for 12 hours.

A bicyclist dies doping in the hope of buying a fast new sports car.

Is one death more tragic or less accidental than the other 1000?

 

[shojii]

polish, l do hear what you're saying and yes tragedy operates as its own denominator. The difference for me though is that trucks & cars are a non-negotiable part of the cycling landscape, unlike erythropoetin. Who knows, if Epo were as safe as orange juice l wouldn't give as much of a toss.

 

[FKLance]

Bicycle Commuter deaths are "low risk" and "accidental"?

C'mon.

Bicycle Doping deaths are even lower risk (< 0.143%, crunch the numbers) and are accidental also. More Pro's are killed by cars/trucks than dope.

A bicyclist dies riding home from work after picking peppers in a scorching field for 12 hours.

A bicyclist dies doping in the hope of buying a fast new sports car.

Is one death more tragic or less accidental than the other 1000?

Consider how many cyclists are out there. Ok, a lot.

Then consider how many of them dope, even worse blood dope. Not so many.

Then consider how many of those heavy long-time users have had life threatening situations like getting bad blood or later developing an addiction like cocaine. My guess 20%.

If you go out and cycle is your risk of injury 20%? I don't think so. That would mean out of 1 000 000 people 200 000 would be constantly injured because of commuting. Also consider the health benefits of cycling? my guess is it has saved a lot of people from early death. There are no health benefits in doping.

My point, if you decide to drug abuse, you end up with a higher risk of dying than when you decide to commute.

 

[Polish]

What person in their right mind DOESN'T see something really, really, REALLY wrong when kids in their physical prime of life are dying of heart attacks?

Yes, it is really, really, REALLY wrong if it is PED abuse related.
Luckily, it has become really, really, REALLY uncommon.

My point, if you decide to drug abuse, you end up with a higher risk of dying than when you decide to commute.

The Stats do not back you up FKLance.

How many cyclists have a racing license?
How many die from dope each year?
How many die in a accident with a car/truck?

Now don't get me wrong, I think the "dope is killing our young riders" Activists have their heart in the right place, mostly.

But please do not try to minimize the MORE potent killer of cyclists, both racers and "casual" riders.

Put a mirror on your bike and be careful out there.