Esteban Chaves Discussion Thread

[dirkprovin]

Re:

It's obvious that GE wanted to develop a GT rider who could compete with the top 10 eventually. That s why they signed the Yates brothers and Chaves instead of a proven GT rider. Their strength as a team has always been their versatility. Could win classics, stage wins, TTTs and the only thing missing was a good GT rider. I hope it works for them as I prefer to see riders developed over time with the same team than simply buying a proven rider and they probably never had the money to do that anyway while still keeping riders like Matthews,Gerrans, and Albasini. Not sure if they wanted Porte or were just outbid by BMC but from looking at the younger riders they have bought I think they passed on Porte and time will tell whether it was the right thing to do. Maybe they could not afford him anyway. And so far Chaves has better GT results than Porte.Shame they did not get Dennis as well. Another rider who could develop into more than just a TDU, USA Pro Cycling Challenge winner and TT rider. BMC already knew that.

Much that I can agree with in that post. To address specific issues:

- I think that retaining Matthews will be a key priority at the end of 2016 given that he looks a legitimate candidate to win a monument like MSR and very likely in other major one day races; let alone GT stages. With regards to Albasini and Gerrans; both are hitting 35. Albasini has re-signed for 2 years and this may be his final contract. He will be given support for the races that he targets but he also understands his support role for others. Gerrans has two years to go on his deal and whether he goes beyond is open to speculation.

- Re Porte; I will agree with you that OGE may have decided to "pass" on him on the score of his asking price let alone other concerns. I would think they are thinking "long game' with regards to Chaves, Yates x 2 (if they can keep them away from UK Postal) and the 2 AUS youngsters Haig and Power who start with them 2016.

- Re Dennis. Maybe one they missed but at the time they were putting OGE together, he didn't fully have his act together behavior-wise and was possibly ranked behind the likes of Durbridge. As to his GT potential, I'm not sure his climbing is elite standard, especially over 3 weeks. One week tours most definitely and maybe a future ITT World Champion.

- Re Chaves. It appears the combination has "gelled" perfectly. There was always a question mark on how a Latin American or someone from outside the Anglosphere/W.European English familiar would gell in an English speaking team but he has. The team hierarchy has clearly believed in him and he has repaid with hard work. His personality has also clearly fit well with his team-mates; many of whom are Spanish-based/have Spanish language familiarity but he has also worked on his English skills and can handle English language media which does speak well of his professionalism.

 

[yaco]

Dirk an excellent post as usual. I have a different take on the Yates boys. I am unconcerned about them leaving OGE in the short term for Sky or any another team. They are at the stage of their career, where they are still building up their endurance for one,two and three week stage races.. I'd expect them to sign a new two contract for 17 and 18. These two years will determine their future path and its conceivable one of the boys could leave at the end of 2018.

 

[robin440]

Re:

It's obvious that GE wanted to develop a GT rider who could compete with the top 10 eventually. That s why they signed the Yates brothers and Chaves instead of a proven GT rider. Their strength as a team has always been their versatility. Could win classics, stage wins, TTTs and the only thing missing was a good GT rider. I hope it works for them as I prefer to see riders developed over time with the same team than simply buying a proven rider and they probably never had the money to do that anyway while still keeping riders like Matthews,Gerrans, and Albasini. Not sure if they wanted Porte or were just outbid by BMC but from looking at the younger riders they have bought I think they passed on Porte and time will tell whether it was the right thing to do. Maybe they could not afford him anyway. And so far Chaves has better GT results than Porte.Shame they did not get Dennis as well. Another rider who could develop into more than just a TDU, USA Pro Cycling Challenge winner and TT rider. BMC already knew that.

Is Albasini really that expensive? Or what do you mean?

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

It's obvious that GE wanted to develop a GT rider who could compete with the top 10 eventually. That s why they signed the Yates brothers and Chaves instead of a proven GT rider. Their strength as a team has always been their versatility. Could win classics, stage wins, TTTs and the only thing missing was a good GT rider. I hope it works for them as I prefer to see riders developed over time with the same team than simply buying a proven rider and they probably never had the money to do that anyway while still keeping riders like Matthews,Gerrans, and Albasini. Not sure if they wanted Porte or were just outbid by BMC but from looking at the younger riders they have bought I think they passed on Porte and time will tell whether it was the right thing to do. Maybe they could not afford him anyway. And so far Chaves has better GT results than Porte.Shame they did not get Dennis as well. Another rider who could develop into more than just a TDU, USA Pro Cycling Challenge winner and TT rider. BMC already knew that.

Is Albasini really that expensive? Or what do you mean?

I suppose not but the other two especially Gerrans would be. The team does not have a Sky like budget.

 

[dirkprovin]

The OGE budget is probably "mid pack" (6-8th); not crying poor but neither anywhere near the likes of Postal or BMC.

Albasini has brought in results every year at OGE so he would be paid well as a result. However, he has re-signed twice with OGE which clearly indicates that he feels that he is valued at the team and is happy in that environment. Therefore, their offers were probably only needling to be "competitive" $$$ wise rather than out-bidding any outside offers.

The three year deal that Gerrans signed in 2014 IS currently the biggest at OGE. However, any subsequent deals he may sign beyond 2017 would clearly be reduced mirroring the likelihood of "diminished/diminishing returns". He may well decide to retire after 2017 given he would then be 37.

Matthews would most certainly be up for a significant pay rise come contract time late 2016 given his regular "rate of delivery" with regards to results and his future prospects. Any new deal WOULD most likely see him as the highest (or equivalent to) paid rider at the team. Having said that, he has prospered greatly at the team and it's currently hard to see another team where he would find the same chemistry and level of support.

Chaves' re-signing would not have been cheap but it appears clear that he wanted to stay so therefore the $$$ merely needed to be respectable/competitive. It may be somewhat different for the Yates however I do acknowledge that OGE does still have realistic chances of retaining them given the continuing developmental opportunities they may offer. It won't be cheap though.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

The OGE budget is probably "mid pack" (6-8th); not crying poor but neither anywhere near the likes of Postal or BMC.

Albasini has brought in results every year at OGE so he would be paid well as a result. However, he has re-signed twice with OGE which clearly indicates that he feels that he is valued at the team and is happy in that environment. Therefore, their offers were probably only needling to be "competitive" $$$ wise rather than out-bidding any outside offers.

The three year deal that Gerrans signed in 2014 IS currently the biggest at OGE. However, any subsequent deals he may sign beyond 2017 would clearly be reduced mirroring the likelihood of "diminished/diminishing returns". He may well decide to retire after 2017 given he would then be 37.

Matthews would most certainly be up for a significant pay rise come contract time late 2016 given his regular "rate of delivery" with regards to results and his future prospects. Any new deal WOULD most likely see him as the highest (or equivalent to) paid rider at the team. Having said that, he has prospered greatly at the team and it's currently hard to see another team where he would find the same chemistry and level of support.

Chaves' re-signing would not have been cheap but it appears clear that he wanted to stay so therefore the $$$ merely needed to be respectable/competitive. It may be somewhat different for the Yates however I do acknowledge that OGE does still have realistic chances of retaining them given the continuing developmental opportunities they may offer. It won't be cheap though.

Where else could the Yates brothers go and ride for GC and be reasonably paid ? The other teams or most of them have established GC riders except the teams smaller than GE. I don't think Albasini would be on big money as he has never won a prestige race like Gerrans. Podiums yes and stage wins but it's usually wins that add value unless you are a super domestique like Porte. The younger riders usually get a longer contract for development reasons and soon as they start winning that's when they can start bargaining. A good lead out rider is probably on as much as Albasini but of course his stage wins would have increased his value. Teams must hate it when they develop a rider and then they head elsewhere but I think loyalty in sport disappeared long ago in many ways. It's refreshing when a sportsman sticks with the same team for his entire career but of course cycling teams have a have habit of disappearing quicker these days unlike football teams with their massive budgets.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

The OGE budget is probably "mid pack" (6-8th); not crying poor but neither anywhere near the likes of Postal or BMC.

Albasini has brought in results every year at OGE so he would be paid well as a result. However, he has re-signed twice with OGE which clearly indicates that he feels that he is valued at the team and is happy in that environment. Therefore, their offers were probably only needling to be "competitive" $$$ wise rather than out-bidding any outside offers.

The three year deal that Gerrans signed in 2014 IS currently the biggest at OGE. However, any subsequent deals he may sign beyond 2017 would clearly be reduced mirroring the likelihood of "diminished/diminishing returns". He may well decide to retire after 2017 given he would then be 37.

Matthews would most certainly be up for a significant pay rise come contract time late 2016 given his regular "rate of delivery" with regards to results and his future prospects. Any new deal WOULD most likely see him as the highest (or equivalent to) paid rider at the team. Having said that, he has prospered greatly at the team and it's currently hard to see another team where he would find the same chemistry and level of support.

Chaves' re-signing would not have been cheap but it appears clear that he wanted to stay so therefore the $$$ merely needed to be respectable/competitive. It may be somewhat different for the Yates however I do acknowledge that OGE does still have realistic chances of retaining them given the continuing developmental opportunities they may offer. It won't be cheap though.

Where else could the Yates brothers go and ride for GC and be reasonably paid ? The other teams or most of them have established GC riders except the teams smaller than GE. I don't think Albasini would be on big money as he has never won a prestige race like Gerrans. Podiums yes and stage wins but it's usually wins that add value unless you are a super domestique like Porte. The younger riders usually get a longer contract for development reasons and soon as they start winning that's when they can start bargaining. A good lead out rider is probably on as much as Albasini but of course his stage wins would have increased his value. Teams must hate it when they develop a rider and then they head elsewhere but I think loyalty in sport disappeared long ago in many ways. It's refreshing when a sportsman sticks with the same team for his entire career but of course cycling teams have a have habit of disappearing quicker these days unlike football teams with their massive budgets.

Albasini DID win Catalunya, albeit back in 2012 and he brings in significant WT points hauls every season. He would be on good money, certainly not top $$$; he's probably been top 6-7 at OGE re contract size. Clearly the likes of Chaves, Matthews re-sign in 2014 & the Yates will have gone past him.

I completely agree that the Yates are not likely to get the GC opportunities anywhere else but it's impossible to ignore the fact that UK Postal WILL throw everything, including the kitchen sink full of money, at them plus the blandishments of riding for a British team. Only they can make those decisions.

 

[yaco]

Hey Dirk. Seems like you have a strong dislike of Sky. Strangest thing is they only have 8 UK riders on their books

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Hey Dirk. Seems like you have a strong dislike of Sky. Strangest thing is they only have 8 UK riders on their books

Not going to make any aspersions on Sky re any parallels to US Postals "methods" but their TdF modus opperandi, their mega budget, and (at least in early years) sole focus on TdF to the exclusion of all else is just too reminiscent, to me, of US Postal/Disco. It wins, that cannot be denied, but maybe I just prefer a little 'humanity".

Others may differ, that's fine.

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

Snip



Actually, its much less the case than it was a few years back. SBS (on free to air TV) has televised ALL stages of the Giro for the last two years; and the second half of the Vuelta. One suspects that may change to all stages in 2016.

Eurosport has been showing all WT races plus the likes of Cali & Turkey on pay TV in AUS since 2010 but over the past few years SBS has stepped up from just TdF, Paris-Roubaix & Worlds RR to now take in the other GTs; MSR; Flanders; Amstel, Liege-Bastogne-Liege & Lombardie. They wouldn't have extended to these races without having the "feedback" that the interest is now extending well beyond the TdF.

OGE is likely to make their "calls" regarding their leading rider's race calendars around what races/race routes best suit their characteristics as well as their wishes and tailor their off seasons/preparations accordingly. It worked well for Matthews NOT to go back to AUS in the last off season so his early season 2016 is likely to mirror his 2015. Gerrans will target the early season in AUS (Nationals, TdU).

AUS fans would love to see Chaves come out for TdU but that's not likely to happen if it's counter-productive for his season's goals which would probably be the case. It's quite clear that OGE hierarchy now look at a far wider picture than just "cleaning up in OZ". This was seen this year when Gerrans was ruled out of TdU and they DIDN
'T compromise the plans for either Matthews or the Yates twins by calling them in.

Would Evans 2014 and Porte 2015 have had some influence on this?

 

[SergeDeM]

Re: Re:

There are no current Team Colombians worth signing without it being more of a gamble than a safe choice.

Torres and Dani Martinez are both great riders to have in your team.

True, but one or two riders is quite a letdown for such a big budget as far a pro-contis are concerned.

There are no current Team Colombians worth signing without it being more of a gamble than a safe choice.

Eh? I thought it was that idiot Corti who was responsible for their failure?

Yes, but how is a WT team supposed to know if Edwin Avila et al are any good after only seeing them once or twice in two years? That's why they're all gambles.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

Snip



Actually, its much less the case than it was a few years back. SBS (on free to air TV) has televised ALL stages of the Giro for the last two years; and the second half of the Vuelta. One suspects that may change to all stages in 2016.

Eurosport has been showing all WT races plus the likes of Cali & Turkey on pay TV in AUS since 2010 but over the past few years SBS has stepped up from just TdF, Paris-Roubaix & Worlds RR to now take in the other GTs; MSR; Flanders; Amstel, Liege-Bastogne-Liege & Lombardie. They wouldn't have extended to these races without having the "feedback" that the interest is now extending well beyond the TdF.

OGE is likely to make their "calls" regarding their leading rider's race calendars around what races/race routes best suit their characteristics as well as their wishes and tailor their off seasons/preparations accordingly. It worked well for Matthews NOT to go back to AUS in the last off season so his early season 2016 is likely to mirror his 2015. Gerrans will target the early season in AUS (Nationals, TdU).

AUS fans would love to see Chaves come out for TdU but that's not likely to happen if it's counter-productive for his season's goals which would probably be the case. It's quite clear that OGE hierarchy now look at a far wider picture than just "cleaning up in OZ". This was seen this year when Gerrans was ruled out of TdU and they DIDN
'T compromise the plans for either Matthews or the Yates twins by calling them in.

Would Evans 2014 and Porte 2015 have had some influence on this?

Evans riding it in 2014 - quite possibly
Porte in 2015 - a much less likely reason. More likely to have been OGE winning 3 Giro stages the previous year and the feedback they'd received for their 2014 coverage.

 

[yaco]

Matthews will stay in Europe again this winter. Anyway has a Slovakian wife so gets to see the family and train. I believe Matthews sometimes trains with Sagan.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Matthews will stay in Europe again this winter. Anyway has a Slovakian wife so gets to see the family and train. I believe Matthews sometimes trains with Sagan.

Given his results this season, why change what has clearly worked for him ? He's realistically now the number one man in the team outside the GC guys "under development (Chaves, Yates x 2).

What will be interesting to see with be Chaves' schedule for 2016. Barring injury, he WILL be an almost certain Olympic selection by COL for Rio. Which GTs and will he be given "priority" for any of the Ardennes races as well as Lombardia ?

The little guy certainly has been 'adopted' by the OGE fanbase and they would obviously love to see him at TdU. That, however, would not make any sense with regards to his season as a whole. More likely to be seen at the Spanish 1 weekers.

 

[greenedge]

Gerro/Matthews for AGR
Albasini probably for F-W, with Chaves a possible co-leader.
At LBL Gerrans, Chaves, and the Yates brothers all have strong claims.

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

Gerro/Matthews for AGR
Albasini probably for F-W, with Chaves a possible co-leader.
At LBL Gerrans, Chaves, and the Yates brothers all have strong claims.

OGE have the potential to create chaos at the Ardennes with their line up. If they get it right things could get entertaining.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

Gerro/Matthews for AGR
Albasini probably for F-W, with Chaves a possible co-leader.
At LBL Gerrans, Chaves, and the Yates brothers all have strong claims.

OGE have the potential to create chaos at the Ardennes with their line up. If they get it right things could get entertaining.

AGR: certainly the logical choices but there'll need to be a decision made out of the road, and made explicit by whichever DS is in charge with regards who will be "the man" on that particular day to avoid a repeat of 2015 Worlds.

F-W: The Mur has traditionally been Albasini's "hill" when it comes to OGE riders. Chaves, if in 2015 Vuelta condition, might certainly have prospects but Yates.S had a top 10 here during the last TdF with no visible team support to position him well at the base of the hill.

LBL: Whilst the "mayhem" scenario sounds great; having 4 protected riders just isn't really viable. Three at max. Damned if I know which of the younger guys; will probably know better after the early season races.

Lombardie: Chaves recent showing a very bright omen for the future but that should not preclude at least one of the Yates from being selected.

 

[yaco]

Think it may be a bit simpler then written - Matthews two target races are MSR and Amstel Gold - Albasini and Gerrans share LBL,La Fleche Wallone, Flanders and Keukelaire is always solid in the cobbled classics - OGE needs more help in the cobbled classics and i guess Magnus Cort Nielsen is being groomed as a leader.

Have my doubts how good the Yates boys and Chavez are in the Ardennes Classics and their level of motivation for this kind of racing. Long term I guess Power and haig will be groomed for this kind of race. And Ewan can be a good one day rider if he builds up his endurance - He looks a perfect fit for MSR.

Impey can be very competitive in the RIGHT one day race if given team support Also expect Juul Jensen to feature prominently in the Autumn classics.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

Snip



Actually, its much less the case than it was a few years back. SBS (on free to air TV) has televised ALL stages of the Giro for the last two years; and the second half of the Vuelta. One suspects that may change to all stages in 2016.

Eurosport has been showing all WT races plus the likes of Cali & Turkey on pay TV in AUS since 2010 but over the past few years SBS has stepped up from just TdF, Paris-Roubaix & Worlds RR to now take in the other GTs; MSR; Flanders; Amstel, Liege-Bastogne-Liege & Lombardie. They wouldn't have extended to these races without having the "feedback" that the interest is now extending well beyond the TdF.

OGE is likely to make their "calls" regarding their leading rider's race calendars around what races/race routes best suit their characteristics as well as their wishes and tailor their off seasons/preparations accordingly. It worked well for Matthews NOT to go back to AUS in the last off season so his early season 2016 is likely to mirror his 2015. Gerrans will target the early season in AUS (Nationals, TdU).

AUS fans would love to see Chaves come out for TdU but that's not likely to happen if it's counter-productive for his season's goals which would probably be the case. It's quite clear that OGE hierarchy now look at a far wider picture than just "cleaning up in OZ". This was seen this year when Gerrans was ruled out of TdU and they DIDN
'T compromise the plans for either Matthews or the Yates twins by calling them in.

Would Evans 2014 and Porte 2015 have had some influence on this?

Evans riding it in 2014 - quite possibly
Porte in 2015 - a much less likely reason. More likely to have been OGE winning 3 Giro stages the previous year and the feedback they'd received for their 2014 coverage.

I don't think it's either is just a progression of SBS' cycling coverage. They have been showing every stage of the Tour for over 20 years then they started showing all of the monuments live then 8 stages live of the Giro and also eventually the Vuelta. For a "free to air" station their coverage of the sport is excellent unfortunately they lost the TDU live coverage to Channel 9 probably for money issues as SBS is a government funded station.

I think Porte and Evans rode the TDU sometimes simply because it coincided with the Nationals and because they were riding the Giro. Valverde is really the only other GT rider who has made the trip a few times but of course not just for training but Valverde seemsto usually have a long season anyway.

 

[Jspear]

Alright back to Chaves.

Like I thought, he will most likely be doing the Giro and Vuelta next year. He will probably be aiming for a top 5 (podium would be "ideal") in the Giro.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cha...-yates-brothers-return-to-the-tour-de-france/

 

[greenedge]

Re:

Have my doubts how good the Yates boys and Chavez are in the Ardennes Classics and their level of motivation for this kind of racing. Long term I guess Power and haig will be groomed for this kind of race. And Ewan can be a good one day rider if he builds up his endurance - He looks a perfect fit for MSR.

I don't think those races will suit Haig, he seems more of the TJVG mould who would ride the Ardennes in support of a leader. Power could because I think he has an ok sprint, but he should also be allowed to focus on the big mountains.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

Have my doubts how good the Yates boys and Chavez are in the Ardennes Classics and their level of motivation for this kind of racing. Long term I guess Power and haig will be groomed for this kind of race. And Ewan can be a good one day rider if he builds up his endurance - He looks a perfect fit for MSR.

I don't think those races will suit Haig, he seems more of the TJVG mould who would ride the Ardennes in support of a leader. Power could because I think he has an ok sprint, but he should also be allowed to focus on the big mountains.

We'll know more in two years time re Haig and Power although I take note of what you've said.

With regards to "motivation" for Yates x2 and Chaves; methinks that Adam winning San Sebastian and Chaves showing at Lombardie would indicate that one day racing will NOT be an "oh, must I ?' for them; or at least as long as they're at OGE. That may alter should they move to other teams who may have single minded focus on GTs.

Little Caleb ?? He may not feel that he's a bunch sprinter; hell he may prove not to be but so far I'm sceptical about his one day potential. Would have to develop a "tank" several sizes bigger than his current one ....... and not automatically drop off the back crying "Taxi !!" the moment they raise the pace going up a climb.

 

[jaylew]

Re:

Alright back to Chaves.

Like I thought, he will most likely be doing the Giro and Vuelta next year. He will probably be aiming for a top 5 (podium would be "ideal") in the Giro.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cha...-yates-brothers-return-to-the-tour-de-france/

They should take at least one Yates to the Giro and the Vuelta as mountain support for Chaves. After all, they've got a potential podium contender and not many climbers on the team. It would also be a better way for the Yates to develop their GT chops to see if they have any potential there rather than throwing them into the Tour where they should focus on the stage hunting they've typically been good at in GTs.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Think it may be a bit simpler then written - Matthews two target races are MSR and Amstel Gold - Albasini and Gerrans share LBL,La Fleche Wallone, Flanders and Keukelaire is always solid in the cobbled classics - OGE needs more help in the cobbled classics and i guess Magnus Cort Nielsen is being groomed as a leader.

Have my doubts how good the Yates boys and Chavez are in the Ardennes Classics and their level of motivation for this kind of racing. Long term I guess Power and haig will be groomed for this kind of race. And Ewan can be a good one day rider if he builds up his endurance - He looks a perfect fit for MSR.

Impey can be very competitive in the RIGHT one day race if given team support Also expect Juul Jensen to feature prominently in the Autumn classics.

Agree re Matthews targets. Gerrans hasn't raced Fleche in recent years preferring to go AGR then rest for LBL and states the finish isn't ideal for him. Think it will be Albasini's show with either a Yates or Chaves as option B.
Leige is Gerrans with one of the younger guys as option B. Impey is a potential option B for MSR or maybe AGR. It WILL be interesting to see where Juul-Jensen will fit into the pattern.

They will be hoping that Keukeleire can build on a promising 2015 cobbles campaign. If he can position himself a little better he may pick up a few more placings. Cort most certainly a prospect for these races; he had a low key but quite successful neo-pro season with a few WT points finishes.

Alright back to Chaves.

Like I thought, he will most likely be doing the Giro and Vuelta next year. He will probably be aiming for a top 5 (podium would be "ideal") in the Giro.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cha...-yates-brothers-return-to-the-tour-de-france/

They should take at least one Yates to the Giro and the Vuelta as mountain support for Chaves. After all, they've got a potential podium contender and not many climbers on the team. It would also be a better way for the Yates to develop their GT chops to see if they have any potential there rather than throwing them into the Tour where they should focus on the stage hunting they've typically been good at in GTs.

Not a bad idea in theory. Much may depend on how they may come out of the Tour and also whether one or both are selected for the Olympics. Adam has stated that the Vuelta is a bit too hot for him so maybe he's more a Giro option.

 

[Escarabajo]

I think it is a good idea to take Chaves to the Giro. Give him one more year to develop his legs and prove once more that he is consistent in a three week race. You don't want to hurt his confidence by throwing him to the Tour and be disappointed.