Evans and his meeting with Ferrari?

[The Hitch]

Appreciate it, thanks.

I'm standing by what i think about Evans then: That he's clean, until someone shows factual proof otherwise. We just don't know either way.

Who is the "we" you are referring to. You and acf?

Also anyone who takes a -"he's clean until proven otherwise' attitude to successful cyclists of that era is demonstrating a shocking ignorance of the subject.

Would be hillarious to see you try and explain why Evans still considers lance a legitimate tdf winner. Whatever it is it can't be doping. Because he didn't test positive ergo he must have been clean

 

[The Hitch]

Why do I still think this? Because from all I have read Oxygen vector doping boosts aerobic threshold power between 5 and 15% - not 30 or 40%. There is room for overlap between gifted talent and less gifted dopers.

Spits coffee.

I didn't see this the first tine but wow. Less talented dopers? Evans routinely clubbed like baby seals THE MOST talented dopers. He finished 2nd in tours were guys fetching bottles were caught doping and the entire top 20 are implicated. He finished number 1 in wt and in cq in a year the world pretty much gave up on saving cycling from doping. You call that beating less talented dopers. What dopers did he not beat? Contador was the only one who regularly beat him and even him Evans beat in the 2010 mur 1on1 straight up outclimbed him, if not the 2011 tour. Every other major doper Evans beat regularly. The lesser dopers meanwhile were domestiqing for Evans and never anywhere near as good as him. In some of those gts he contended in pretty much every name is a doper and they are finishing minutes down on him.



How on earth can you try to use the idea that there may be overlap between good clean riders and poor dopers as an argument for one of the most successful riders of the epo era being clean?*

Forget the worst dopers who were the better dopers of the era? Menchov, beaten by Evans in the 2 tdfs they raced against eachother in. Valverde? - routinely beaten by Evans in tdfs. Sanchez- likewise in 2008. Leipheimer-beaten by Evans in 07. Kohl - beaten by Evans in 08. Which higher end of the doping spectrum specifically do you believed surpassed the performances of Evans, seeing as how you believe that his performances were equivalent only to those of a lower level doper.

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

I love it when The Hitch gets p!ssed -

 

[86TDFWinner]

Who is the "we" you are referring to. You and acf?

Maybe, maybe not.

Also anyone who takes a -"he's clean until proven otherwise' attitude to successful cyclists of that era is demonstrating a shocking ignorance of the subject.

Not to change topics here, but is this also true for Nibali? I've said here in a different thread that I didn't think Nibali was "clean", but had no proof either way, and some here got all bent outta shape claiming Nibali was clean. Now, EVERYONE is questionable, until proven otherwise. But since neither you or I know if Cadel did/didn't, we're speculating here. I've said though that I do not know either way.

Would be hillarious to see you try and explain why Evans still considers lance a legitimate tdf winner.

I disagree with Cadel there,

Whatever it is it can't be doping. Because he didn't test positive ergo he must have been clean

I'm going to invoke the "LeMond Rule" here and just ask you: Do you have the info stating that Cadel doped too? Not hearsay, or innuendo, factual proof he did? If not, how can anyone(including yourself) be 100% certain either way, because I'm sure many here would like to see it.

As I've stated a few times, if it's found out that Cadel is guilty, then I won't be a fan of his anymore. Just show us the proof he did, so we can end this discussion.

 

[Ferminal]

You have to credit him for keeping his name out of things. Whether it was the result of diligence, luck, or risk aversion (or some combination of) it is quite remarkable. IMO this tends to support blackcat's "not the biggest charger out there" theory. He has had his moments though and 2007 he was as alien as the other three, and 2011 was a very deliberate push. When you think about it it's no surprise he won the Worlds when it was on his doorstep. If he used the services of the good Doctor then you'd have expected something to come up in the last 10 years or so. Maybe he took stupid precautions, maybe he used him only in the early-2000s. That said, we only know about Nibali because of an eyewitness. Evans could just be an expert in self-prep in which case very few people would know details.

 

[Granville57]

Just show us the proof he did, so we can end this discussion.

Serious question:

What, in your opinion, would constitute "proof"?

 

[86TDFWinner]

Serious question:

What, in your opinion, would constitute "proof"?

Mine would be positives(Have their been any?), what would do it for you?

 

[blackcat]

Serious question:

What, in your opinion, would constitute "proof"?

it is the last refuge of the scoundrel.

was not Armstrong channeling either Nixon or Kissinger or both, when he said "extraordinary allegations requiry extraordinary proof".

well, for starters, this is cycling. And a cursory glance at the podiums for the GTs over the last two decades will have the equivalent of the court record of majority of said podium finishers, were positve over their career.

then, a layperson psychology pop psychology non-polymath would tell you, without even the backing of Charles Yesalis, that it defies belief in the world of professional sport, that competitors, A Type personalities, would sacrifice such a competitive edge.

then, when you add in D-Queued's pithy epigram about the agggregation of marginal gains aint a rounding error on a comprehensive doping program. ie brailsford v ferrari.

no, sry 86TDFWinner , you are dead wrong brah.

 

[blackcat]

You have to credit him for keeping his name out of things. Whether it was the result of diligence, luck, or risk aversion (or some combination of) it is quite remarkable. IMO this tends to support blackcat's "not the biggest charger out there" theory. He has had his moments though and 2007 he was as alien as the other three, and 2011 was a very deliberate push. When you think about it it's no surprise he won the Worlds when it was on his doorstep. If he used the services of the good Doctor then you'd have expected something to come up in the last 10 years or so. Maybe he took stupid precautions, maybe he used him only in the early-2000s. That said, we only know about Nibali because of an eyewitness. Evans could just be an expert in self-prep in which case very few people would know details.

in the world of oxygen vector doping, it is a simple biochemical equation to "find form" It is not finding form, it is finding the weasel word and the drugs or blood bags.

Thus, we have the spikes in hometown olympic golds. Put money on Brazil for circa 20 gold. I dont know which discipline they could win in, but win they will. They dont even have brazilian jiu-jitsu. murilio oe maurilo fischer wont be back, i think the former freestyle swimmer whose name escapes me atm, his time has passef, he held the 50m WR about 6 years back, he used to train with Gary Hall jnr's squad out of Florida Uni gators or something. starts with a b or some letter like than, and only about 4 or 5 letters long.

I dont know how they could get their 20 gold. But they will. Maybe Dana White of the USC might get special status in 2 years, and they will have 15 soccer disciplines.

 

[blackcat]

He has had his moments though and 2007 he was as alien as the other three, and 2011 was a very deliberate push. When you think about it it's no surprise he won the Worlds when it was on his doorstep.

re: dialling in form, ask 131313 about "form". I think 13 was a rouleur, but in the Queen Stage in Tour of Gila in the year Armstrong came back, 13 passed Armstrong on the climb of the Queen Stage. (he wrote about it on this board, so i am not divulging confidence)

Lance obviously had one or two bloodbags out before the tour. I think Levi was in the same year, but he was up the front whem the climb was only the liggett lanuage heads of state.

 

[blackcat]

IMO this tends to support blackcat's "not the biggest charger out there"

aka, the weasel world Millar et al use is "revovery doping" . "recovery". or, weasel phrase "recovery doping". Just restoring natural levels...

yeah, as soon as Millar opens his mouth, it is like a concession to everything that is wrong.

 

[blackcat]

the problem with the Ferrari line, i have a couple of records that mostly conflict, but two i think were Evans own mouth.

I think the most recent one was from Evans himself, about seeing Ferrari for "testing", but around Mapei or when he moved (before Rogers) to Telekom (before they became TMobile)

the other, i think it was from Evans also, that "Rominger got him to Ferrari for testing when he was on Cannondale MTB team". That might have been 2001, the year he won Weissbauer Tour (Tour of Austria) when Rominger got Saeco Cannondale red kit Cipo's team, got him the stagiare spot for that race. Rominger got him to the Mapei superteam in 2002 ofcourse.

Now, Evans himself might have conflated the dates. I thought the first tests were when Rominger had him as a MTB rider. And Ferrari, was hip-tied to Tony, I thought he had a stake in the Rominger sports management agency for its first decade before Rominger sold the Agency to IMG.

So, I could give Evans a pass if these two instances were actually the one and the same, and Evans confused them because they were one. Or, I read them as two, and I was wrong, and the journalists, if you call the stenographers on CN journos, they might have f'ed it up.

Then there was Ullrich associate, the dutch cycling journo, Rene Schulenburg, aka Cyclingheroes, he also aksed Evans at a Telekom training camp, in 2003 where Evans confirmed he was his doc then, even tho I think he has always had a coaching relationship with the late Aldo Sassi since his mtb AIS days.

Then, I think a German newspaper, had an article on him being with Ferrari, around 2009. I sent it off to a journo who wanted nothing to do with it.

And I think Race Radio has more anecdotes too

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Who is this Anthony Tan and why is he relevant?

 

[blackcat]

took the words right out of my mouth.

i think Anthony Tan is the one on the right. he has a bit of panache with his choice of blazer. the smug look tells me Tanman thinks he is gonna get laid tonight

 

[sniper]

a 'new breed'? you gotta be kiddin me.
Gripper sold out long ago.

A number of prominent figures such as disgraced American rider Tyler Hamilton and Australian anti-doping expert Anne Gripper have lauded Evans for being part of a new breed of clean cyclists.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling...rage-of-armstrong-scandal-20121024-285ua.html

 

[86TDFWinner]

no, sry 86TDFWinner , you are dead wrong brah.

Do you have proof either way?


Pick one: yes, or no?

 

[blackcat]

Do you have proof either way?


Pick one: yes, or no?

i choose...... i chooose, the option of false dichotomy.

 

[86TDFWinner]

i choose...... i chooose, the option of false dichotomy.

That's what i thought you'd say.

So, since you don't know either, I guess YOU would be wrong "brah".

 

[Netserk]

Did you have any proof in 2004 that Riis was a doper? If not then clearly he was clean...

 

[blackcat]

Did you have any proof in 2004 that Riis was a doper? If not then clearly he was clean...

brah qua brah facepalm

this guys got fools for marbles

 

[LaFlorecita]

I love it when The Hitch gets p!ssed -

Me too he he

 

[Granville57]

Mine would be positives(Have their been any?), what would do it for you?

But what about the fact that we have absolute, scientific verification that "not testing positive" has no meaning whatsoever, and holds no value to either side of the debate?

Whereas finishing alongside proven and admitted dopers in MTF's in a Grand Tour is somewhat less easy to ignore.
There is "proof" in the fact that many of his competitors doped at those times.
There is "proof" in the fact that Cadel was right alongside them, if not in front of many of them.

I'm just curious as to why, when asked about such things, his is not a response of outrage of being robbed of what certainly would've been muliptle GT titles, but that his actual response is, "I don't think I'm in a good position to comment on that. Sorry."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7WwF6238F4&t=8m30s

I'd really like to hear Cadel's perspective on the 2005 Tour in particular. Some interesting company he was keeping (and often beating) in a year when even the soon-to-be converted were still dabbling in the dark arts. And that's by their own admission. Proof.

 

[roundabout]

apart from this, I am not sure what is immediately suspicious about 2005

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/tour05/?id=tour0518/36

 

[Granville57]

apart from this, I am not sure what is immediately suspicious about 2005

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/tour05/?id=tour0518/36

Cadel Evans (Davitamon-Lotto) leads the Armstrong group in

And by "the Armstrong group" it means Lance, Jan and Ivan.

I just re-watched that race recently. With Cadel in mind, some entertaining MTF's, to be sure.


OT:
Hey look! It's Clean Jens!

GC after stage 8.
46.22 km/hr average speed over the 1,493.5 km covered so far

1. Jens Voigt (CSC) 32hr 18min 23sec.
2. Christophe Moreau (Credit Agricole) @ 1min 50sec
3. Lance Armstrong (Discovery) @ 2min 18sec
4. Michael Rasmussen (Rabobank) @ 2min 43sec
5. Alexandre Vinokourov (T-Mobile) @ 3min 20sec
6. Bobby Julich (CSC) @ 3min 25sec
7. Ivan Basso (CSC) @ 3min 44sec
8. Jan Ullrich (T-Mobile) @ 3min 54sec
9. Carlos Sastre (CSC) @ 3min 54sec
10. George Hincapie (Discovery) @ 4min 5sec
12. Andreas Kloden (T-Mobile) @ 4min 8sec
12. Floyd Landis (Phonak) s.t.
13. Vladimir Karpets (Illes Balears) @ 4min 31sec
14. Yaroslav Popovych (Discovery) @ 4min 32sec
15. Santiago Botero (Phonak) @ 4min 36sec
16. Levi Leipheimer (GErolsteiner) @ 4min 49sec
17. Jose Azevedo (Discovery) @ 4min 53sec
18. Joseba Beloki (Liberty sEguros) @ 5min 1sec
19. Oscar Pereiro (Phonak) @ 5min 12sec
20. Jose Enrique Gutierrez (Phonak) @ 5min 16sec
21. Roberto Heras (Liberty Seguros) s.t.

Wow. What a rogues gallery!

 

[roundabout]

You can add these guys as well

22 Dario Frigo (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 5.20
23 Jörg Jaksche (Ger) Liberty Seguros-Würth
24 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne 5.42
25 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto 5.47
26 Alberto Contador (Spa) Liberty Seguros-Würth 5.51
27 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne 5.57
28 Jose Luis Rubiera (Spa) Discovery Channel 6.02
29 Paolo Savoldelli (Ita) Discovery Channel 6.21
30 Kim Kirchen (Lux) Fassa Bortolo 6.22