evans, Basso, doping, who's not doping thread!

[Libertine Seguros]

That actually is a bit concerning for me.

In 2006, Basso had the maglia rosa. He had minutes in hand. He didn't need to totally shred the field, just mark the others, and then attack when he felt it necessary.

Today, Basso had 2'27" to make up, and thus had to go full gas earlier. He also had the extra motivating factor of having to take extra time on what he had; in 2006 what motivation was there for him to add to his lead? He had minutes in hand.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Cuddles gets dropped and ACF has to start slinging mud again.
What other excuse does Cuddles need? Maybe they forgot to hollow out the tubes on his bike and they were solid? Maybe he had a hangnail? Maybe his little piggy really did go to market?

No, people said I should start this thread! nothing to do with evans but it is to do with basso. don't care about whos coach he is with but he lied "before hand" and says he only intended to dope and then today he does the mortirollo faster again than in 2006. that's my problem.

 

[Ferminal]

That's the worst I've seen Evans do in quite a while... He didn't even blow up like he did in 2007, just didn't have the legs. I'd be very surprised if he was on tranfusions this Giro.

 

[Lion of Flanders]

That actually is a bit concerning for me.

Take a look at the profile of the stage. In 2006, there was a short but hard climb before the Gavia, and then the Mortirolo.

This year, the Mortirolo was the first really hard climb and what did you say he did? Eight seconds faster?

Doesn't sound like too outrageous to me.

 

[dolophonic]

Or simply Basso targeted the third week with a different approach than last year: less races, more altitude training, getting race kilometers and gains in form during the Giro.

Vino and Evans, on the other hand, came from a succesful spring campaign, kept their shape in the first days, but it started fading midway through the Giro.

Sastre tried to do the same as Basso, but maybe exaggerated with his lack of race days.

And Liquigas is the strongest team simply because the other teams didn't bring their n.1 teams.

With this I'm not saying that rider X or Y is or is not doped.

+1..

some serious racing going on there.
Comparing times when the course was different just shows bias...
people jump on any bandwagon they can.. No one should be beyond reproach but at the same time there have been a lot of amazing days of racing from a lot of different riders. You cant win em all.. Basso has been very quiet up until the Giro whereas Evans has been so strong.. I was wondering how Evans was able to be that good for that long myself.

 

[Inner Peace]

Yes. Which makes anyone saying that one is doping and the other isn't, beyond ***.

How bout you actually think about it. Just because they have the same coach doesn't mean one can't dope and the other can't too - or vice-versa. Individual choices are something that CAN happen...

If Coach coaches rider A and rider B.
Coach states rider B is the most physically talented he's ever seen.
Coach states rider A is the most determined he's ever seen.
Logic might suggests that rider B mano-e-mano should beat rider A.
Rider A seeks external assistance unknown to Coach.
Rider B stays with the training plan and loses to rider A.

Hardly *** - use some logic - no reason to suggest that Rider A can't microdope by himself to gain that extra 1% over rider B...

Note: I don't think Basso (rider A) is using - 5.6w/kg - WOAH!!!

Lemond could do that, no?

 

[lightandlongshadows]

You don't make it into the Euro. pro peloton, let alone ride at the front, without doing "what it takes". Period.

 

[ProfTournesol]

+1..

some serious racing going on there.
Comparing times when the course was different just shows bias...
people jump on any bandwagon they can.. No one should be beyond reproach but at the same time there have been a lot of amazing days of racing from a lot of different riders. You cant win em all.. Basso has been very quiet up until the Giro whereas Evans has been so strong.. I was wondering how Evans was able to be that good for that long myself.

well this is the problem isn't it, if you win you are automatically under suspicion (Basso), if you lose you are under suspicion because you got your doping regime wrong (Evans)! If you used to be strong and now you are slower, it's because you used to dope and now that you aren't doping it shows what a crap rider you always really were (Cunego). Who knows what the real truth is? Nevertheless, this has been the most thrilling and interesting Giro I can remember. It certainly beats GTs that have one team of "ubermen" metronomically pounding out a superhuman tempo every day who deliver their leader to the bottom of the climb so that he can effortlessly dance up the road without raising a sweat and give a TV interview the minute he has stepped off his bike.

 

[davis_123]

+1

And unfortunately, there seem to be some who actually are beyond regarded here.

Their coach also said "I can't choose between them. Cadel is the strongest athlete I've ever coached. Ivan is the one with more determination,"

The strongest Athlete vs a guy that tries hard, that is how the coach described them.

Teams are the ones that share their doping sources not coaches, Popo is a prime example gun at DC dud at Lotto yet his coach never changed. Not only Vino but half of the Astana team were busted in 07, did they all have the same coach?

Leakygas had a rider suspended before the race began, you would be foolish to think Nibali and Basso aren't on the same sauce.

 

[Sasquatch]

People who think Evans has been and is clean are Naive.

Who is to say he isn't doping too?

 

[craig1985]

Yes. Which makes anyone saying that one is doping and the other isn't, beyond ***.

But I thought Aldo Sassi was vehemently anti doping?

 

[Mellow Velo]

Better a thread, here, for all the speculation, than 30 pages ruining each Giro stage thread that Evans doesn't win.
I'm not going to speculate, as it's an impossible task. A waste of time.

However, I will make an observation or two.
1) The timing for yesterday's MR climb is debateable, as: a) we have no confirmation link. b) There is more than one time doing the forum rounds.
We need the VAM info.

2) Only a completely biased poster could fail to see that by casting doping slurs in the direction of Ivan Basso, directly attaches the same slurs to Cadel Evans.

Aldo Sassi's credibilty questioned over one of his two riders, makes the other rider equally questionable.

Likewise, if Evans is accepted as clean, so too must be Basso.
Sassi is the glue that has cemented these two riders reputations together.

Break the glue and you damage both.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Leakygas had a rider suspended before the race began, you would be foolish to think Nibali and Basso aren't on the same sauce.

BMC had 2 riders suspended before the race began. They also had a rider test positive for EPO, in the Giro warm up race.
Now, Landis has named the BMC/Phonak management as being actively involved in Phonak doping plans.

You can throw a pebble at the Liquigas riders, but you'll get a BMC boulder chucked at Evans, in return.

 

[brianf7]

Na its all in the mind!

 

[issoisso]

But I thought Aldo Sassi was vehemently anti doping?

I never said any of them was doping

 

[eljimberino]

If it's anything like last years Giro, if you come 4th or 5th, in 6 months time you'll be upgraded a place or two.

What perplexes me though are the Di Luca types. Get busted once, watch from the sidelines for a while, get busted again. Shrug shoulders.

If you're a spectator and jaded about the level of doping in cycling, imagine what it would be like to be clean rider. Not sure if you would want to share a podium with a couple of dopers, even if your position was upgraded somewhere down the track. My guess is you sit down quietly with your wife and say: well, I'll do this for a few more years and try to enjoy it, take whatever wins I can. Retire and sell home grown fruit from a little wooden shelter down the bottom of your driveway. Don't think you would even wait for the day they announce a couple of riders ahead of you were cheating.

 

[centri]

You don't make it into the Euro. pro peloton, let alone ride at the front, without doing "what it takes". Period.

Amen. (Though I do know some former pro riders who were clean, they were not at the front.) And someone will always be doing what it takes. "What is takes" will simply evolve as time goes on...

 

[Frosty]

Yesterday's stage did have a hard climb before the Mortirolo, 7km at 9.3%. Not quite the Gavia but still hard. Pinotti reckons that his VAM was the same for both climbs yesterday.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/93rd-giro-ditalia-gt/stage-19

http://twitter.com/marcopinotti

The stages before yesterday were, rest day, 40 minute time trial, mountain day taken easy, short (relatively!) flat stage. Ok, so its nearly the end of the race but those four stages arent the most punishing. IMO the stages preceding the Mortirolo stage in 2006 look harder.

 

[Anonymous]

Their coach also said "I can't choose between them. Cadel is the strongest athlete I've ever coached. Ivan is the one with more determination,"

The strongest Athlete vs a guy that tries hard, that is how the coach described them.

Teams are the ones that share their doping sources not coaches, Popo is a prime example gun at DC dud at Lotto yet his coach never changed. Not only Vino but half of the Astana team were busted in 07, did they all have the same coach?

Leakygas had a rider suspended before the race began, you would be foolish to think Nibali and Basso aren't on the same sauce.

You'd be foolish to think that Cuddles is not using some form of recovery enhancement.

 

[Archibald]

Yes. Which makes anyone saying that one is doping and the other isn't, beyond ***.

do they also have the same doctor?

 

[Ferminal]

Is Basso still posting his numbers?

 

[lightandlongshadows]

Amen. (Though I do know some former pro riders who were clean, they were not at the front.)

....and I used to race with former (minor) pros in Belgium who were back racing amateur and definitely not clean, one was dead dirty - literally. It all begins loooong before the pro ranks. My experience was 20 years ago, it was filthy then.....some things don't change.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

You'd be foolish to think that Cuddles is not using some form of recovery enhancement.

But Cuddles is a brave english speaker, he has no team for support, only dirty euros and east europeans dope, not our boys

Cuddles was channeling his inner floyd today. Shame it only came out with under 3km to go. Sucks wheels all the way around Italy and Holland and then attacks on the last stage...

 

[Mellow Velo]

Gosh. Cadel gave Basso a right kicking, today.
So what does that mean? Of course, right, I forgot: nothing.
Good, old fashioned, colonial stiff upper lip.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Gosh. Cadel gave Basso a right kicking, today.
So what does that mean? Of course, right, I forgot: nothing.
Good, old fashioned, colonial stiff upper lip.

Harmon was very quick yesterday to bring up Basso and Scarponi's bans, but not so happy to mention Phonak 2's doping problems. Much just be the 'confidence' of the Rainbow jersey that helped Cuddles blow everyone away today.

When Basso, Scarponi, Vino drop anyone its because they are doping, when Cuddles drops anyone it is confidence...

Confidence is the new post-cancer weightloss.