evans, Basso, doping, who's not doping thread!

[thehog]

Is Basso still posting his numbers?

Yes. Monthly for the last 2 years. Look at them. They are an interesting insight to what happens during a GT.

 

[santacruz]

Jeez I didn't know Aldo Sassi has a brain tumor He is Evans and Ivan's coach... most people probably know that, but I didn't. This article makes me stop and think how silly it is to worry about doping when you know the sword of damocles is hanging above your head, some by more horse hairs than others

"I even made the nurse wait before I went into surgery because I was finishing off Basso's training programme. Now both he and Evans are getting ready for the Giro d'Italia. Who will win the Giro? Hopefully either Evans or Basso. They're like two sons for me and I can't chose between them. Cadel is the strongest athlete I've ever coached. Ivan is the one with more determination."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/italian-coach-aldo-sassi-under-treatment-for-a-brain-tumor

"Cycling has improved a lot. Things have really cleaned up. If either Ivan or Cadel win the Giro, we'll have the proof that you can win without doping. I totally trust them and I'm certain they wouldn't do anything to hurt me…."

 

[Ferminal]

Yes. Monthly for the last 2 years. Look at them. They are an interesting insight to what happens during a GT.

Hopefully they will not be anywhere like Armstrong/Wigans.

Harmon was very quick yesterday to bring up Basso and Scarponi's bans, but not so happy to mention Phonak 2's doping problems.

It's not just the commentators, it's the media everywhere. When he won on Zoncolan, when he took pink it was always:

"Ivan Basso, who was suspended in 2007 as a result of OP"

It's not at all relevant to what he's done in the last three weeks so why do they mention it.

 

[Escarabajo]

How bout you actually think about it. Just because they have the same coach doesn't mean one can't dope and the other can't too - or vice-versa. Individual choices are something that CAN happen...

If Coach coaches rider A and rider B.
Coach states rider B is the most physically talented he's ever seen.
Coach states rider A is the most determined he's ever seen.
Logic might suggests that rider B mano-e-mano should beat rider A.
Rider A seeks external assistance unknown to Coach.
Rider B stays with the training plan and loses to rider A.

Hardly *** - use some logic - no reason to suggest that Rider A can't microdope by himself to gain that extra 1% over rider B...

+1.

I think that was an incorrect statement by Issoisso. He usually is good at posting but I think he missed it here. Regardless of both being doped or clean. Having the same coach means nothing.

 

[Ferminal]

+1.

I think that was an incorrect statement by Issoisso. He usually is good at posting but I think he missed it here. Regardless of both being doped or clean. Having the same coach means nothing.

Otherwise career best form Mick Rogers is clean

 

[Escarabajo]

What do you guys think about Basso going from 5.6 W/Kg in the Zoncolan full gas, full effort to going to 6 W/kg in the Mortirollo few days after? I thought Basso was at his maximum in the Zoncolan. So he can increase power in the third week? I thought third week was more about who survives better or who has more energy compare to other riders not about his own self. How is that possible?

Here is Aldo Sassi's take:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sassi-convinced-basso-is-racing-clean

"The power the lead riders put out on the Mortirolo yesterday was about 420 watts. That's about six watt/kg, at the limit of natural physical possibilities."

"The data people should reflect on were the times the riders set during the Plan de Corones time trial. The data showed that the strength to weight ratio of the best riders was somewhere between 5.1w/kg and 5.3w/kg. That's low. It's as if they all rode the 100 metre final in the Olympics in 13 seconds. I think that is enough to confirm that cycling has changed."

Here is Lemond's take:

http://bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

My wattage, relative to VO2 Max...a VO2 Max of 92 or 93 in a fully recovered way...I think I was capable of producing 450 to 460 watts. The truth is, even at the Tour de France, my Tour de France climb times up l'Alpe d'Huez yielded a wattage of around 380 and 390. That was the historic norm for Hinault and myself. You've got times going back many, many years. But what was learned recently, in the last 5 years, was that when you start the Tour de France, you start with a normal hematocrit of, say, 45 percent. By the time you finish, it's probably down 10 or 15 percent. Which means my VO2 Max dropped 10 or 15 percent. So that's why I was never producing the same wattage. And then there a lot of other factors that help performance if you've recovered

 

[Saddlesaw]

Gosh. Cadel gave Basso a right kicking, today.
So what does that mean? Of course, right, I forgot: nothing.
Good, old fashioned, colonial stiff upper lip.

...funny, I've never thought of 9 seconds on a mountain stage as a right kicking - you're right of course, why didn't it see it before

 

[dolophonic]

BMC had 2 riders suspended before the race began. They also had a rider test positive for EPO, in the Giro warm up race.
Now, Landis has named the BMC/Phonak management as being actively involved in Phonak doping plans.

You can throw a pebble at the Liquigas riders, but you'll get a BMC boulder chucked at Evans, in return.

Nice ! ... oh you got to look at the whole picture ! Amazing.

 

[Galic Ho]

How bout you actually think about it. Just because they have the same coach doesn't mean one can't dope and the other can't too - or vice-versa. Individual choices are something that CAN happen...

If Coach coaches rider A and rider B.
Coach states rider B is the most physically talented he's ever seen.
Coach states rider A is the most determined he's ever seen.
Logic might suggests that rider B mano-e-mano should beat rider A.
Rider A seeks external assistance unknown to Coach.
Rider B stays with the training plan and loses to rider A.

Hardly *** - use some logic - no reason to suggest that Rider A can't microdope by himself to gain that extra 1% over rider B...

Note: I don't think Basso (rider A) is using - 5.6w/kg - WOAH!!!

Lemond could do that, no?

Lemond was pushing 6.1w/kg during a GT. He was putting out 430W at the start and 390-400W at the end. Or so he said.

 

[Galic Ho]

Leakygas had a rider suspended before the race began, you would be foolish to think Nibali and Basso aren't on the same sauce.

Nibali and Pellizotti have both been labelled as training together under Ferrari. Ironically spotted during the first window last year for Franco's bad Bio Passport value. Need I say more? Liquigas are super strong, without Kreuziger and Pellizotti, yet compare to last years Tour. Massive difference team wise overall.

There are lots of comments about Vino and Evans peaking their form too early. Wake the hell up! Escarajabo pointed out that doping recovery is about form, especially in the 3rd week of a GT. Basso is not immune from suspicion, he is prime suspect no.1 because he peaked in the third week. Take what Ashenden has said about the Floyd Landis reports on doping in a GT, and his confirmation that the Bio Passport committee have noticed problems with riders values in the 3rd week of a GT and then compare to Basso's actual values. Do they drop? If they don't he is juicing. Simple. He won't be the only one. Nibali will be there as well, so to Scarponi, Vino and Evans. Ivan just got the whole picture right; team, recovery, preparation, strategy and tactics.

Plus the Motirolo times do count. Tactics diminish only somewhat the times. How do you think a domestique train sets a killer pace after 18 days of racing? Water and pasta? The times count in comparison to 2006. It is about power exerted versus natural fatigue. Nothing has changed from 2006. Dope very well and have a smithering of talent, you can win. End of discussion.

You want a look at a clean rider. Cunego. 15 minutes back. Form went right off in the third week. One goose said he was crap. Read a bit more into doping fool. That is a solid indicator of a very talented clean rider. Do I need to mention Gerdemann?

 

[wattage]

What do you guys think about Basso going from 5.6 W/Kg in the Zoncolan full gas, full effort to going to 6 W/kg in the Mortirollo few days after? I thought Basso was at his maximum in the Zoncolan. So he can increase power in the third week? I thought third week was more about who survives better or who has more energy compare to other riders not about his own self. How is that possible?

That is pretty suspicious. I mean it's not like that stage ended at the top of Mortirolo, after that they still went full gas to Aprica.

 

[Gregory]

check out front page:http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/simoni-makes-one-final-attack-in-the-mountains
Simoni slams Basso:

"Basso is a phoney nice guy. He behaves like a choir boy, but he isn't. Back then he did even worse things that flick me. His doping throw mud on the whole of Italian cycling."

 

[craig1985]

So Gibo, what is Italian for the pot calling the kettle black?

 

[Mellow Velo]

So Gibo, what is Italian for the pot calling the kettle black?

I still don't get this angle on Simoni.
He tested positive for some "Boonan", which was later chucked out. Hardly a PED, in anycase.
Basso had DNA in transfusion bags.

I think your kettle isn't black, but pale grey.

 

[blackcat]

I think your kettle isn't black, but pale grey.

more spotted duck, or perhaps dalmation, maybe mottled ceramic