Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

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He was fine at the Tour last year. Didn't look like the crash affected him.
I think racing in junior ranks means considerably when it comes to instinct.
Implicitly teaches riders and develops sense.
He surely lacks some skills in bunch riding, but I don't think it's that bad. Last year at Dauphine was mechanical that caused his crash (he was catapulted over front wheel). This year Paris-Nice was his fault yea but that happens to everyone (plus this was first race on a new bike and disc brakes, might be a factor). In Tour this year, first crash nothing could have been done, second was weird one and is still unknown what happend (here I would say his mistake was riding alone and moving up).

All in all, could be worse :tearsofjoy:
 
I was hoping for mid case scenario but unfortunately the worst case scenario happened on stage 7. Hilly terrain and Primož folded due to accumulated injuries gathered on stage 1 and 3.

Where to go from here, to continue or DNF. I support Primož in his decision whatever it will be. Just please don't have too much respect for the Tour. It is not worth it to do it just for that. Do it for some other reason if desired.

As for the Rominger. Please no. Primož Roglič is unique and the truth is i never associated him with Rominger in the first place.

As for jinxing him by wishing him luck. That is the same level *** as it was saying he crashed because of the karma on PN.
 
Get well, Primoz. Take some time off to recuperate (also from TJV), prepare for the Olympics and the rest of the season.

I expect the situation in the rest of the team won't be peachy. Wout vs. Jonas (the guy Wout should now be riding for).
The team objective from day 1 (i.e. give Wout freedom to do whatever he wanted with his leadout man Teunissen) & dedicate 5 guys to help Primoz Roglic was a mistake. That mistake turned to disaster when Gesink DNF'd & JV maintained the same strategy.

That left only 4 guys riding for Primoz, only one of which was a dedicated flat specialist aka Tony Martin. That's why Primoz was without protection in front of him at 10km on Monday, fighting by himself to maintain position, with his climber domestiques sitting behind him on the left side of the road whilst Wout van Aert was on the other side looking after his own objectives.

If the JV sporting directors thought it was a good idea to make lightweight climbers fight for position by themselves in amongst pure sprinters on twisty narrow roads, they were hugely mistaken. And that error cost them everything (i.e. their main GC guy is now incapable of winning the Tour & so are they). Even today, allowing Wout van Aert to cause massive chaos with Teunissen by going in the breakaway (in a very spectacular stage, for what it's worth) created a chase situation & the peloton drilled it at a high speed which was eventually fatal for their crippled leader.

Would that have happened with WVA in the breakaway? Maybe, but JV certainly contributed to it. The takeaway from this Tour for me is Roglic was extremely unlucky, but his team played a huge role in precipitating that misfortune. It was avoidable & that's the most frustrating part.
 
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The team objective from day 1 (i.e. give Wout freedom to do whatever he wanted with his leadout man Teunissen) & dedicate 5 guys to help Primoz Roglic was a mistake. That mistake turned to disaster when Gesink DNF'd & JV maintained the same strategy.

That left only 4 guys riding for Primoz, only one of which was a dedicated flat specialist aka Tony Martin. That's why Primoz was without protection in front of him at 10km on Monday, fighting by himself to maintain position, with his climber domestiques sitting behind him on the left sider of the road whilst Wout van Aert was on the other side looking after his own objectives.

If the JV sporting directors thought it was a good idea to make lightweight climbers fight for position by themselves in amongst pure sprinters on twisty narrow roads, they were hugely mistaken. And that error cost them everything (i.e. their main GC guy is now incapable of winning the Tour & so are they). Even today, allowing Wout van Aert to cause massive chaos with Teunissen by going in the breakaway (in a very spectacular stage, for what it's worth) created a chase situation & the peloton drilled it at a high speed which was eventually fatal for their crippled leader.

Would that have happened with WVA in the breakaway? Maybe, but JV certainly contributed to it. The takeaway from this Tour for me is Roglic was extremely unlucky, but his team played a huge role in precipitating that misfortune. It was avoidable & that's the most frustrating part.
Wout van Aert was clearly working for Roglic on monday prior to the crash. Roglic just lost the wheel of van Aert.
 
He was not able to sit on the TT bike for six weeks. From the crash in the Dauphine to the ITT on stage 20. In the Jumbo Visma documentary he said before the stage that he still felt pain amd discomfort when getting into the TT position. It affected his racing on the road bike less, but one imagines that being off the bike for 10 days before the Tour is not the best prep.
Yes, he was definitely not 100% for the Tour last year. This year he came in at 100% but had that go out the window on stage 1. Stage 3 sealed his fate.
 
It wasn't an opinion.
Of course, whatever. Say what you want but the fact remains JV rode week one of the Tour de France with split objectives & two star riders aiming for different results.

If someone wants to beat Pogacar, that's not good enough. You don't see Pogacar having to play ball with Mark Hirschi's personal objectives, do you? No. And before someone say "but Hirschi has no form this year!", Wout van Aert himself just came back from an appendicitis operation.

So yeah, JV went into a GC fight with a team split in two. Not smart.
 
Of course, whatever. Say what you want but the fact remains JV rode week one of the Tour de France with split objectives & two star riders aiming for different results.

If someone wants to beat Pogacar, that's not good enough. You don't see Pogacar having to play ball with Mark Hirschi's personal objectives, do you? No. And before someone say "but Hirschi has no form this year!", Wout van Aert himself just came back from an appendicitis operation.

So yeah, JV went into a GC fight with a team split in two. Not smart.
One split was 7,5/8 (everyone + half van Aert). Unlike Hirschi van Aert is one of the 5 best riders in the peloton. It's ridiculous to expect a rider of that quality to fully ride in help. A great way for a team to lose that guy when his contract is over.

I have yet to see anyone who finds it wonderful how Kwiatkowski, one of the most talented riders of his generation, turned fully into a domestique, but yet you expect another, maybe even more talented guy to?
 
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One split was 7,5/8 (everyone + half van Aert). Unlike Hirschi van Aert is one of the 5 best riders in the peloton. It's ridiculous to expect a rider of that quality to fully ride in help. A great way for a team to lose that guy when his contract is over.

I have yet to see anyone who finds it wonderful how Kwiatkowski, one of the most talented riders of his generation, turned fully into a domestique, but yet you expect another, maybe even more talented guy to?
And here we are, the "truth". I mean I don't blame you for being a Wout van Aert fan, I actually like the guy as well.

But your example proves the obvious point, i.e. SkyIneos might not have won all those Tours if Kwiatkowski with another of their riders was allowed to chase his own objectives whilst the rest were attempting to win the GC with the leader. You'd have to be extremely superior to the competition before playing those sorts of games & JV are not (especially as I already said considering WVA had just returned from an appendicitis operation & wasn't 100%). And when Gesink DNF'd, the situation became even more critical.

The rest of your post is just moralism about the perceived wrongs of domestique duties behind a leader in a Grand Tour (the leader in this case being Primoz Roglic aka number one rider in the world & winner of a GT + Basque Country over the past 8 months).

With Wout van Aert, JV can win stages & hold the jersey for a day or two. With Primoz Roglic, they can win the Tour de France. I think you'd have to be a very bad Sporting Director to believe the former as equally as important as the latter, or at least worth sacrificing your chances of winning the overall for.
 
Usually I would agree, that it's better to support your leader fully. But look at the situation now, Roglic crashed so badly he won't be in contention for the win anyway with however much help he got / gets. And it wasn't van Aerts fault Roglic crashed.
I'm trying to be objective here, and it looks to me like you are an immense Roglic fan trying to find an outlet for your anger.
 
Today was bittersweet. A great stage, but so painful to watch Rog struggle like that on a second cat climb.

As for the splitting ambitions discussion: I don't care that VA is allowed to go for stage wins here and there in the first week, but first and foremost you need to make sure Rog is protected at all times. He was isolated in a very dangerous situation when he crashed the other day. With Gesink out and a banged up Tony Martin you just cannot afford to split your resources in the crucial moments of a stage. So yes, luck played a role but JV were really tempting fate on Monday.
 
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Today was bittersweet. A great stage, but so painful to watch Rog struggle like that on a second cat climb.

As for the splitting ambitions discussion: I don't care that VA is allowed to go for stage wins here and there in the first week, but first and foremost you need to make sure Rog is protected at all times. He was isolated in a very dangerous situation when he crashed the other day. With Gesink out and a banged up Tony Martin you just cannot afford to split your resources in the crucial moments of a stage. So yes, luck played a role but JV were really tempting fate on Monday.
I didn't see the moment on TV, as far as I know the camera wasn't on it then, but Roglic seemed to almost lose van Aert's wheel earlier already - so either he just lost van Aerts wheel or he even deliberately let go of it, anyway you cannot put the blame on van Aert. After all van Aert is a crosser, not a guy with 10years of experience in bunch riding and only in the team because of these qualities.
 
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And here we are, the "truth". I mean I don't blame you for being a Wout van Aert fan, I actually like the guy as well.
If anything it means that I want the best riders to do what their capable of. Or is that you disagree with my top 5 statement? In my eyes both Roglic and van Aert are top 5 riders in the current peloton, and as a team you want to keep your stars happy. The way you do that is by allowing them to chase their goals and not keep them on a leash.

Roglic going for GC and van Aert trying to go for yellow in the first week aren't mutually exclusive, especially when the latter was working for the former in both stage 1 and stage 3. And now it looks like JV made the right choice in that regard since Roglic going for GC is out of the question after today. The only thing you could criticize them for is that they let Vingegaard wait for Roglic in stage 3.
 
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Usually I would agree, that it's better to support your leader fully. But look at the situation now, Roglic crashed so badly he won't be in contention for the win anyway with however much help he got / gets. And it wasn't van Aerts fault Roglic crashed.
I'm trying to be objective here, and it looks to me like you are an immense Roglic fan trying to find an outlet for your anger.
I'm just disappointed. I also feel that Roglic is one of those riders who somehow needs to permanently justify his number one position on the team, which is crazy in my mind.

We had this last year when Dumoulin was named joint leader in the Tour (anyone could see that was "hopeful" at best) & it resulted in him going mental in the Pyrenees when he realized he didn't have the legs, pulling like mad (against team orders) & breaking down in tears afterwards (& we saw in the code yellow documentary at one point he even had to apologize to his teammates for criticizing team tactics). JV were not a happy family last year.

And then in the Vuelta (one month later), Dumoulin was once again named co-leader (& some hints Roglic would ride for him if he proved stronger) & the result was another Dumoulin meltdown & he quit after a week. And here we are in this Tour where once again Roglic didn't have full leadership (I mean the "official" statements from the team pre-Tour was about Kruijswijk being co-leader, i.e. as crazy as that sounds, I now feel they were telling the truth) & they sent a WVA (who had just returned from an operation) to play his own cards with his own leadout man.

Oh & WVA saying he wouldn't ride hard in the mountains like last year before the Tour started. That's not exactly #samenwinnen which is what Roglic really needed to beat Pogacar (just like he had in Basque Country or the Vuelta last year after Dumoulin quit).

If anything it means that I want the best riders to do what their capable of. Or is that you disagree with my top 5 statement? In my eyes both Roglic and van Aert are top 5 riders in the current peloton, and as a team you want to keep your stars happy. The way you do that is by allowing them to chase their goals and not keep them on a leash.

Roglic going for GC and van Aert trying to go for yellow in the first week aren't mutually exclusive, especially when the latter was working for the former in both stage 1 and stage 3. And now it looks like JV made the right choice in that regard since Roglic going for GC is out of the question after today. The only thing you could criticize them for is that they let Vingegaard wait for Roglic in stage 3.
You're kidding, right? When Roglic crashed, no one knew how badly he was really hurt. So he could have just had scratches & recovered that night (JV didn't know, no one did). So you would have had Vingegaard say "scr*w you Roglic, I'm going for myself now"... as soon as Roglic crashed, without knowing the full extent of the injuries?

That's not how a team wins the Tour. And that's the point here, i.e. JV could only win the Tour with Roglic. By aiming for auxiliary honours with Wout van Aert, they weakened that GC objective. And yeah, those objectives (GC & stage hunting with other riders) pretty much always are in contradiction, hence why it's only the lower GC hopefuls (young prospects like Gaudu or older guys who're no longer at their best like Quintana) who have to put up with a team with split objectives.
 
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