Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Fantastico]

I wasn't paying much attention to analysing this crash but this discussion made me look up some useful video and I found this

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-GEi7xFY0Qw


This video in my opinion clearly shows that at the beginning, while Roglic was still in front of Wright, he moved to the right and aligned his direction with the line on the road. After that he keeps riding on that line while Wright passes him on his right. Suddenly, Roglic crashes without any apparent clipping of wheels or something. It really looks like some kind of contact with Wright who was passing him, whereas Roglic did not do anything out of ordinary while sprinting, following his line.

So based on this footage I am inclined to agree with his view that Wright made him crash by dangerously sprinting around him. Is there any better footage of the crash?

I don't understand your conclusion. Roglic clearly rides on the left side of the white centre strip in the beginning (left side in riding direction), then passes the strip and goes further to the right, reducing the space for Wright.

 

[red_flanders]

Is literally a different way of saying “Wright came from behind. You do see that right? They were both moving forward very quickly, so just because others ahead were moving faster doesn’t negate the fact that Wright technically came from behind.

It isn’t. Wright’s position relative to all the other riders doesn’t change. Roglič was drifting back relative to everyone having just come off the front after a huge effort. Did all the other riders “come from behind him”? No. He was slowing. Since he cleared everyone else in the line, he by definition had to move into Wright to cause the crash given their position. This is obvious from the footage.

This is about the same as someone changing lanes in a car. If a line of cars goes by me on the right because I slow down, and I turn into them and crash into the last one as they come past, they did not “come from behind me” and “I don’t have eyes in the back of my head” is not an argument I get to make. I moved into them causing the crash.

 

[Volderke]

Some thoughts:

1. it doesn't matter if Roglic was in front of Wright or not. We are looking at a sprint, Wright sprints on the far right. Roglic comes from the far left and is slowing down. There is really no discussion: Roglic deviates from his line and came in touch with Wright who fortunately stayed upright. If not, Roglic should have been punished according to rule 2.3.036 - Sprints: Riders shall be strictly forbidden to deviate from the lane they selected when launching into the sprint and, in so doing, endangering others.

2. It doesn't matter if this was Roglic, Evenepoel, Cavendish, Sagan , WvA or Vino : all riders in Roglic' position were wrong, and Fred was (and is always) Wright.

3. Even if those with rosy Roglic fan-glasses argue it's not black or white as they even find the evidence inconclusive, why are Roglic and JV stirring the pot?

4. Racing isn't the same as opening a door for a lady and saying 'after you, miss'. So any rider in Roglic' position, thinking he has right of way, is a true primadonna. If you really want Van Poppel's wheel, you could try and take it by keeping the same speed and some shoulder-bumping. Good luck though, because if you fail and crash, remember you were the one taking a risk.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I mean to some extent this is getting blown out of proportion. Yes, he (wrongfully) criticized another rider. But Roglic himself was criticized earlier in the year and there was never any evidence of that. I remember Froome lashing out at Contador when he could have just not followed him on descents. Sprinters crash and yell at each other all the time. Sagan has had many lapses of judgement. Who really cares? If he were still winning, probably no one. Wout got all pissed at Remco after Worlds and on and on. He should have kept his mouth shut for sure. And the only three reasons I can think of for the team pushing this narrative are:

1. (Most likely) they want to appease a devastated and bitter Roglic.
2. They believe the footage shows that Roglic held a line and Wright ran into him.
3. (Least likely) They want to make him look bad so they can ditch him, as someone theorized earlier in the thread.

 

[Miha81]

View from another angle.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-GEi7xFY0Qw

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

View from another angle.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-GEi7xFY0Qw

This is where it gets into the blue and white or white and gold dress scenario. To me, it looks like Wright allows Roglic to take his line (which Roglic should not have done) and Roglic stays on the literal white line until Wright suddenly accelerates and veers a little left. I fully recognize my own bias is likely leading me to see that. Roglic fails to recognize that he swim right and took Wrights line before Wright came from behind and veered slightly left into Roglic’s line. You live by the sword; you die by the sword.

Which reminds me @Extinction I never would have brought up Ancient Rome if it would lead to you calling Roglic Nero of all people. Nero dressed a male slave up as his mother, named him his mothers name, married him, and then murdered him (and his mother). And you call Roglic fans irrational?

 

[Extinction]

A thumb's up for the footage. -- Still hard to say one rider was at fault. Depending on allegiances, different viewers may come to different conclusions.

No allegiances, but you cannot start sprinting whilst drifting back and try to stay in the slipstream of the rider who is passing you next to the barriers. It will always end dreadfully.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

It isn’t. Wright’s position relative to all the other riders doesn’t change. Roglič was drifting back relative to everyone having just come off the front after a huge effort. Did all the other riders “come from behind him”? No. He was slowing. Since he cleared everyone else in the line, he by definition had to move into Wright to cause the crash given their position. This is obvious from the footage.

This is about the same as someone changing lanes in a car. If a line of cars goes by me on the right because I slow down, and I turn into them and crash into the last one as they come past, they did not “come from behind me” and “I don’t have eyes in the back of my head” is not an argument I get to make. I moved into them causing the crash.

Looks it’s fine if you want to interpret it that way and define the group’s speed as the marker, but it’s surprising you don’t recognize that definitionally, if one object is moving forward at x speed and another object is behind and accelerates to move at y speed, which is greater than x, object y has definitionally come from behind to pass object x.

The car analogy doesn’t work very well because you’re skipping that the car moves over to be slightly staggered and not quite in line and rides I dunno 40m(?) on that line before the other suddenly. I don’t know why I’m bothering though because I agree with the larger point that Roglic should have either hopped on the back or not swung off the front and just let them ride around him. And he should not have released this statement.

 

[noob]

Benji saying exactly what I feel! The publishing is the problem. How did this get through the PR department in Jumbo.

 

[Sciatic]

this is complete BS. you mean the group of sprinters that were only off the front because they wheelsucked him for 2.5k?

It is what I meant; regarding of how they got there the risk for a GC guy to mix up it with sprinters in the last 100 meters —where elbowing and leaning on each other is common, isn’t worth the risk of one’s entire race when you have a chance to win the overall. The sprinters are usually bigger, have a little more upper body strength, and are very used to getting knocked around, why mess with that
What difference does it make how they got their if the issue is necessary risk avoidance?

I realize in this case Roglic may have been seeing double after that supreme effort and that may have cost him some judgment or vision. Perhaps he thought he was simply getting on the back of the group, and didn’t see Wright until they were almost together.

 

[Sciatic]

Yes

Didn’t Sky and Froome regularly complain though that they weren’t given respect and space?

Yes, but they definitely were expecting to get that deference.

 

[Extinction]

This is where it gets into the blue and white or white and gold dress scenario. To me, it looks like Wright allows Roglic to take his line (which Roglic should not have done) and Roglic stays on the literal white line until Wright suddenly accelerates and veers a little left. I fully recognize my own bias is likely leading me to see that. Roglic fails to recognize that he swim right and took Wrights line before Wright came from behind and veered slightly left into Roglic’s line. You live by the sword; you die by the sword.

Which reminds me @Extinction I never would have brought up Ancient Rome if it would lead to you calling Roglic Nero of all people. Nero dressed a male slave up as his mother, named him his mothers name, married him, and then murdered him (and his mother). And you call Roglic fans irrational?

I know, but it was for dramatic effect. Still to blame another for the fire of Rome, to then build the Domus Aurea...well, you see. "Quick Romans! Move to Veii , for the city has become one mans house!" Epigram you know?

 

[Escarabajo]

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/primoz-roglic-blames-fred-wright-for-vuelta-a-espana-crash/

Oh well. No more mister nice guy!

 

[red_flanders]

Looks it’s fine if you want to interpret it that way and define the group’s speed as the marker, but it’s surprising you don’t recognize that definitionally, if one object is moving forward at x speed and another object is behind and accelerates to move at y speed, which is greater than x, object y has definitionally come from behind to pass object x.

The car analogy doesn’t work very well because you’re skipping that the car moves over to be slightly staggered and not quite in line and rides I dunno 40m(?) on that line before the other suddenly. I don’t know why I’m bothering though because I agree with the larger point that Roglic should have either hopped on the back or not swung off the front and just let them ride around him. And he should not have released this statement.

The Wright object did not "accelerate" (in any meaningful way). The Roglič object decelerated. It doesn't matter, it's semantics.

The only reason anyone is talking about "coming from behind" is because of Roglič's comments defending what he did. It's probably the least relevant part of what Roglič did wrong.

The problem is that you have a rider who moved from one line into another, trying to get in front of a rider who had the right to the space he was in. There was no room. The contact was initiated by the rider moving into the other rider's line.

I don't follow your objection on the car analogy. He clearly could not have been on that line since he dropped past every other rider with no issues. For that to be an issue Wright would have had to been swinging out widely to the left relative to the other riders. He was not.

 

[Netserk]

Is literally a different way of saying “Wright came from behind. You do see that right? They were both moving forward very quickly, so just because others ahead were moving faster doesn’t negate the fact that Wright technically came from behind.

Depends on your point of reference. Compared to the rest of the group, Wright stayed in place while Rogla dropped back.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Depends on your point of reference. Compared to the rest of the group, Wright stayed in place while Rogla dropped back.

That’s my point. If you establish one reference point versus another, that changes the perspective of whether you fell back or came behind. It’s natural that Roglic’s reference is himself. Using Roglic as the reference point, Wright did factually come from behind, as evidenced by the latest video. My goal here really is just to spark empathy rather than paint Wright in any sort of negative light or Roglic as the righteous hero, to be clear. But yes I suppose it is all semantics.

I’d actually be surprised if Roglic was slowing when he fell, by the way. They were in the homestretch of the sprint and he was hauling ass to stay with the group, who was sprinting for the victory. But Wright was accelerating at a faster rate.

 

[Escarabajo]

I think Roglic wants to set a precedent. I agree with some of the comments here that he wants to make a point, even if wrong, just to have some respect. I guess he is tired of being criticized so much. It is human nature. It happens a lot in the workplace when some workers are being abused.

As for the crash, it is just racing. Nothing wrong with what Wright did TBH, but I don't blame Roglic either.

 

[Netserk]

It’s natural that Roglic’s reference is himself.

No, it's not. Whenever he attacks, does he view it as the rest of the peloton falling back? The point of reference is naturally the bigger body, in this case the three other riders.

 

[Extinction]

That’s my point. If you establish one reference point versus another, that changes the perspective of whether you fell back or came behind. It’s natural that Roglic’s reference is himself. Using Roglic as the reference point, Wright did factually come from behind, as evidenced by the latest video. My goal here really is just to spark empathy rather than paint Wright in any sort of negative light or Roglic as the righteous hero, to be clear. But yes I suppose it is all semantics.

I’d actually be surprised if Roglic was slowing when he fell, by the way. They were in the homestretch of the sprint and he was hauling ass to stay with the group, who was sprinting for the victory. But Wright was accelerating at a faster rate.

But it's not debatable. Roglic had fallen behind (at the moment of impact), when trying to overtake Wright, who was opening up his sprint whilst pinned on the barriers by a Roglic encrouching upon his, Wright's, legitimate space, and senselessly refused to give up the fight to his own dismay.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/primoz-roglic-blames-fred-wright-for-vuelta-a-espana-crash/

Oh well. No more mister nice guy!

Next news from Primoz:
"JV used me at the Tour. I'm joining UAE to kick Jonas' thin ass next year. Go Slovenia!"

 

[Lequack]

But it's not debatable. Roglic had fallen behind (at the moment of impact), but was trying to overtake Wright, who was opening up his sprint whilst pinned on the barriers by a Roglic encrouching upon his, Wright's, legitimate space, and senselessly refused to give up the fight to his own dismay.

Let's be real though, irregardless of Roglic thing, sprinting is messy and at one point it will need to be taken care of in a more safe way, before more people get hurt. There are some written and unwritten rules in sprints, and a lot of room for interpretation and looking the other way by the UCI. You only see action when a rider gets seriously hurt, and that's not right.

 

[Rollthedice]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1568334380103262212

View: https://twitter.com/fred_wright0/status/1568334380103262212?t=DaSHM3h8TN1JnLtZiWNjPQ&s=19

 

[Extinction]

Let's be real though, irregardless of Roglic thing, sprinting is messy and at one point it will need to be taken care of in a more safe way, before more people get hurt. There are some written and unwritten rules in sprints, and a lot of room for interpretation and looking the other way by the UCI. You only see action when a rider gets seriously hurt, and that's not right.

Well, firstly, let's say a rider loosing momentum doesn't try to engage those already accellerating on the barriers. For once his front wheel is no longer ahead (and there is no space to move in a certain direction), any contact inevitably brings him down, as was the case

 

[Extinction]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1568334380103262212

View: https://twitter.com/fred_wright0/status/1568334380103262212?t=DaSHM3h8TN1JnLtZiWNjPQ&s=19

But of course.

 

[Lequack]

It's up to Remco as leader of Vuelta to decide now who is to blame.