Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Red Rick]

I can't believe there are people pushing a narrative that Roglic isn't the same he used to be because all he does now is jumping away right at the end of a stage. Guys, that's exactly what he has always been doing. Of course there are some exceptions as he is sometimes naturally forced to start racing earlier. But his comfort zone has always been the final km of a climb.

I'm not saying there is no chance he didn't fully recover from his injuries, but pointing at his style of racing as evidence is nonsense.

Tactics are very situation dependent.

He blasted off on La Pandera as soon as it got steep cause he felt good.

The next day he didnt feel good and he waited until the final stretch to make a move.

 

[CyclistAbi]

A bit of a setback at stage 16. That is losing a couple of seconds to Almeida and Thomas. This was for sure not plan A. Losing time. Still this was the first stage of a week of racing that will determine the overall winner.

JV as a team decided to take this stage under control. This was likely a tactical error made on their side. As at 15km to go they already burned all the matches minus Kuss. That in my opinion is way too soon. Especially as Ineos and UAE still well represented. UAE capitalizing on it the most. Kuss proving he is invaluable and together with Roglič limiting the loses.

But not all is bad. Everything is now out in the open. Rogla was still strong at the finale and there is no way now that UAE or Ineos would settle for anything less then the overall win. JV can utilize this to their advantage.

So on stage 18 in my opinion JV as a team can do more damage, compared to stage 19. On stage 19 Rogla can likely do a bit more damage compared to stage 18. It will be interesting to see the option or a combination they will choose. Stage 19 finale makes a bit more sense to me. Especially is you don't start the stage wearing leaders jersey. Stage 18 likely to waste as little energy as possible. UAE likely to attack at the finale. Being fresh enough to respond and not to lose time is likely the optimal strategy. We'll see.

 

[Elos Anjos]

I'm a Roglic fan and an Almeida fan and yesterday I had mixed feelings given the results and mostly because it was obvious that Roglic was suffering physicall and mentally after being dropped by Almeida and Thomas. If not for Kuss it would have been game over.

Even before Almeida attacked you could see that Roglic was not doing good. I don't even think it was a bad day at all. I sense it was just too much for him. What are the reasons? Age? Too much crashes in past years?

Now, in other years when Roglic crashed, bruises were visible and although he struggled, he was forced to abandon. He had two crashes at this year Giro but they didn't seem to be serious until now. Which is kind of strange. The crashes were not high speed ones and he had a lot of days to recover from them.

If he's not 100% because of these Giro crashes, that means he won't be able to win. If he had a bad day, it's not game over...but I think yesterday it was a major blow. Not because of the time losses, but what they have done to his morale.

 

[Jumbot]

I must say that I am disappointed, watching him being dropped by no other than G, who himself was so far from Pog and Jonas last year... I dont want to speculate on reasons, but since spring 2022 he somehow doesnt look the same, even though Catalunya gave me hope that hes back.
And while back when the routes became known, I have thought that he should do the Tour as it suits him more... This backloaded Giro with its 200km+ rainy and cold transitional stages just aint his cup of tea, its for diesels and not the explosive types. It was similar in 2019 even though he was a bit ill back then.
And Jumbo going from "total cycling" as Plugge called it in last years Tour, to some of the most passive racing of a team in a GT I have seen, everyone stay in peloton and wait to get dropped, no one is allowed in a break... Now they will end up with nothing. Though as a team they never look good in the Giro for some reason.
So disappointing, and I do wonder what Roglas targets and expectations will be in the future if yesterday continues for the rest of the week. Hope for the best but expect the worst.

So what's next for Primoz? Carrying bidons for the Fisherman at the Tour or back to ski-jumping?

Teaching little Nordhagen how to stomp and then retire or take on another sport (golf?)

 

[bNator]

I'm a Roglic fan and an Almeida fan and yesterday I had mixed feelings given the results and mostly because it was obvious that Roglic was suffering physicall and mentally after being dropped by Almeida and Thomas. If not for Kuss it would have been game over.

Even before Almeida attacked you could see that Roglic was not doing good. I don't even think it was a bad day at all. I sense it was just too much for him. What are the reasons? Age? Too much crashes in past years?

Now, in other years when Roglic crashed, bruises were visible and although he struggled, he was forced to abandon. He had two crashes at this year Giro but they didn't seem to be serious until now. Which is kind of strange. The crashes were not high speed ones and he had a lot of days to recover from them.

If he's not 100% because of these Giro crashes, that means he won't be able to win. If he had a bad day, it's not game over...but I think yesterday it was a major blow. Not because of the time losses, but what they have done to his morale.

Normally I would say you are correct. But in case of Roglic, well... We are talking about a guy who won races after 2020 TDF. Ask anyone what is Rogla's beiggest strength and the majority of answers would be mountain sprints and overcoming setbacks. And what happened yesterday, doesn't even qualify as a setback in his book probably. If he can't improve, it won't be due to psychological reasons.

 

[jmdirt]

That could be the start of it as well, either way I don’t think he’s been 100% or close to it for awhile.

From my view there’s the fans negative takes on Evenepoel (with it going both ways), Mas, Almeida, Thomas, and the other favorites he faces. Of course some of that is tongue in cheek, some serious, and some hyping up Roglic for the win since he’s their favorite (like I do with Cav). I think that’s normal. But when they start repeatedly saying “Roglic would never lose time to so and so” or “so and so isn’t in Roglic’s level” is when I have started getting annoyed by it all. On top of the stuff with Wright and accusing Evenepoel of faking a flat and Covid.

I like Roglic, I thought and wanted him to win the Tour in 2020 and was glad he came back and won the Olympic TT despite a lot stating he shouldn’t go. I’ve voted for him to win in a lot of polls but he is turning into Mahomes (NFL) for me.

What?!

 

[Escarabajo]

To people saying that Roglic does not look the same since ...., well I think He is the same. Probably does not look the same as the Tour 2020, I'll give you that, but La Vuelta is not the same as the Tour and the Giro. The first for the contenders and sometimes de route and the other one for the routes.

I have been watching the Vuelta because it has been entertaining and it found its niche in those short mono-climb stages, but who are we kidding? it is not the same. In fact the only race where you will find stages like Val Martello in 2014, Corvara in 2016, and the curtailed queen stages from 2021 and 2018 is here at the Giro. Not in one week races, not at the Tour and not at the Vuelta. So riders have different performances when exposed to continuous days of hard cycling. Do I expect riders to behave different in a 3 week than in 1 week? gosh, I really hope so. Otherwise I wouldn't have the patience to wait this long for the development.

I have been proven wrong in the past, and tomorrow stage favors Roglic for its steepness and length of the stage. But we come back to unhuman racing on Friday and can have yet another surprise. Brace for impact!

 

[bNator]

To people saying that Roglic does not look the same since ...., well I think He is the same. Probably does not look the same as the Tour 2020, I'll give you that, but La Vuelta is not the same as the Tour and the Giro. The first for the contenders and sometimes de route and the other one for the routes.

I have been watching the Vuelta because it has been entertaining and it found its niche in those short mono-climb stages, but who are we kidding? it is not the same. In fact the only race where you will find stages like Val Martello in 2014, Corvara in 2016, and the curtailed queen stages from 2021 and 2018 is here at the Giro. Not in one week races, not at the Tour and not at the Vuelta. So riders have different performances when exposed to continuous days of hard cycling. Do I expect riders to behave different in a 3 week than in 1 week? gosh, I really hope so. Otherwise I wouldn't have the patience to wait this long for the development.

I have been proven wrong in the past, and tomorrow stage favors Roglic for its steepness and length of the stage. But we come back to unhuman racing on Friday and can have yet another surprise. Brace for impact!

Yes, he has always been slightly-above-mediocre rider, only now after years of being overrated, he is finally exposed. That’s the message, right?

The only problem is, it’s not just GTs where he’s not at the same level. Just take a look at last year‘s P-N and compare it to his other stage races. Not many times he was dropped by Adam Yates is there? Or compare Dauphine 2022 and 2020. Or Basque country 2022 and 2021. Or his Olympic TT with this years results. And yes - you can’t just ignore TDF 2020. So compare it to this Giro.

Roglic is quite some way from his best ATM.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Yes, he has always been slightly-above-mediocre rider, only now after years of being overrated, he is finally exposed. That’s the message, right?

The only problem is, it’s not just GTs where he’s not at the same level. Just take a look at last year‘s P-N and compare it to his other stage races. Not many times he was dropped by Adam Yates is there? Or compare Dauphine 2022 and 2020. Or Basque country 2022 and 2021. Or his Olympic TT with this years results. And yes - you can’t just ignore TDF 2020. So compare it to this Giro.

Roglic is quite some way from his best ATM.

Yep.

And honestly it makes sense. Crashes + injuries + surgery + age. He is 33 after all. Contador was 32 when he won his last GT. Froome was 33 and hadn’t been the same force as 2012-2014 for a couple of years. Quintana was 26 when he won his last. Nibali was 31 and a couple years past his 2014 peak. So it would be natural. G performing this well at 36 is insane.

 

[Escarabajo]

Yes, he has always been slightly-above-mediocre rider, only now after years of being overrated, he is finally exposed. That’s the message, right?

The only problem is, it’s not just GTs where he’s not at the same level. Just take a look at last year‘s P-N and compare it to his other stage races. Not many times he was dropped by Adam Yates is there? Or compare Dauphine 2022 and 2020. Or Basque country 2022 and 2021. Or his Olympic TT with this years results. And yes - you can’t just ignore TDF 2020. So compare it to this Giro.

Roglic is quite some way from his best ATM.

Where did I say that? If you are right he will win this race. No problem, otherwise we will find an excuse just like we find an excuse for all our idols, no problem. And one thing, one week races has nothing to o with 3 week races. That was part of my point. So any sample from 1 week races won't help you to extrapolate. Maybe on some riders but not in all riders.

 

[bNator]

Where did I say that? If you are right he will win this race. No problem, otherwise we will find an excuse just like we find an excuse for all our idols, no problem. And one thing, one week races has nothing to o with 3 week races. That was part of my point. So any sample from 1 week races won't help you to extrapolate. Maybe on some riders but not in all riders.

I am claiming he is not at his best. Which means if I am right, he’s going to have to work very hard for victory…

One week races have little correlation to three week races in absolute terms, I agree. But comparing performance in one week races cross-season can give an indication of the likely outcome of three week races.

 

[red_flanders]

I think Roglic fans always respected his opponents once they proved they could match him. Carapaz comes to mind, for instance. No underestimation there. I think you will find the fans will adapt quickly to the new reality and “accept” Almeida and Thomas to his league, just as they were accepting the fact Roglic is no longer in the league of Pogacar and Vinge. We may now have to adapt our expectations from Rogla and hope for extraordinary performances rather than expect them, but up to this point, there was no real reason for that in my opinion.

But are we now expected to just agree everybody is in Rogla’s league? Since 2019 Vuelta, he was only beaten by Pogacar in GTs he completed.

As for Remco, we’ll that is a special case. Rogla’s fans reaction is more or less just self defence to their arrogance…

So...to summarize. Roglič fans are accepting and magnanimous...except when they're not. But they can't be blamed, because Remco fans are bad.

 

[hfer07]

I wouldn't write Primoz off just YET.
Is much better to have a bad day before the crucial stages, not in one of them - specially when there is a the MTT in the penultimate stage...
we'll see if Primoz bounces back on stage 18th

 

[bNator]

So...to summarize. Roglič fans are accepting and magnanimous...except when they're not. But they can't be blamed, because Remco fans are bad.

Well are you arguing that Remco’s fans are humble? You have “Mercx” in your thread title

But sure, go ahead and be an example of an accepting magnanimous Remco fan and tell us, who in your opinion is better than Remco?😁

 

[Escarabajo]

I am claiming he is not at his best. Which means if I am right, he’s going to have to work very hard for victory…

One week races have little correlation to three week races in absolute terms, I agree. But comparing performance in one week races cross-season can give an indication of the likely outcome of three week races.

He can prove his greatness by winning. Under these circumstances, that will be great. But we cannot use the crash excuse because if that was affecting him then he can retire just like many have done in the past. I don't mind if Roglic wins because I like him and that would mean that we will have a great finale for this race.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1661052878465781760

View: https://twitter.com/veloncc/status/1661052878465781760?s=46&t=14N416zK93up_7bVPO60Ig

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

Well are you arguing that Remco’s fans are humble? You have “Mercx” in your thread title

But sure, go ahead and be an example of an accepting magnanimous Remco fan and tell us, who in your opinion is better than Remco?😁

Oh come on. It's a Belgian thing, the search for the next Merckx and the Remco thread was made when he was a junior.
Some Remco fans have tried to change it ( Pogacar results might have had something to do with that) but it wasn't changed because it does seem to really upset people like you for some reason.

And as for the second part, Pogacar. Not counting Vinegar cos he only does stage races.

 

[bNator]

He can prove his greatness by winning. Under these circumstances, that will be great. But we cannot use the crash excuse because if that was affecting him then he can retire just like many have done in the past. I don't mind if Roglic wins because I like him and that would mean that we will have a great finale for this race.

I have no problems with your statements other than that I do not feel they address what I am claiming at all. I am not claiming Rogla is great or he will be winning or should be winning. To the contrary, I am claiming he might be fading. That being said, I won’t be surprised if he proves the opposite in the next couple of days. He has done it many times In the past.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Tomorrow Roglic has a stage that suits him. If he does not deliver it's likely game over.

 

[CyclistAbi]

So Rogla loses a couple of seconds on a stage at GT and all sorts of theories start to emerge. Fun fact. Thomas is actually a couple of years older.

By the way happy birthday Thomas.

 

[SHAD0W93]

So Rogla loses a couple of seconds on a stage at GT and all sorts of theories start to emerge. Fun fact. Thomas is actually a couple of years older.

By the way happy birthday Thomas.

I don’t know where you’ve been but the theories started at the start of the year for some.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I don’t know where you’ve been but the theories started at the start of the year for some.

Which year?

 

[SHAD0W93]

Which year?

2023, and yes the arguments of Thomas being older and having crashes was brought up than as well. In fact, you took part in it.

 

[CyclistAbi]

2023

I see. Lets give such theories a stage or two.

and yes the arguments of Thomas being older and having crashes was brought up than as well. In fact, you took part in it

I don't remember discussing Thomas and crashes all that much. In my opinion the only guarantee there is, if you are a top tier GT cyclist, you will crash. It's unavoidable.

In a way it's a bit ironic. In regards to all the crashes/age theories BS i read before this race. That now supposedly two oldest and crashing the most cyclist are fighting it out for the Giro win.

So all in all i don't usually respond to this at all. As it's BS.

 

[red_flanders]

Well are you arguing that Remco’s fans are humble? You have “Mercx” in your thread title

But sure, go ahead and be an example of an accepting magnanimous Remco fan and tell us, who in your opinion is better than Remco?😁

I'm arguing that making a conflict between these two riders and their fans isn't why I watch cycling. I like them both. And it ain't my thread title. Or my thread. I like cycling.