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Carols

Carols

Mar 20, 2010
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Unterlenkerfahrend said:
He and his team have no clue how to approach stages in GTs. He's either incapable of assessing his legs in the morning/during the stage or the DSs are flat out clueless. The Tour last year and him being simply the best in 3 Vueltas have papered over a lot of cracks, and even the Tour last year was only Granon and otherwise putting WVA up the road rinse repeat tactic.
Outside of that too many instances where there were pulling way too hard when they shouldn't have or didn't pace when it would've suited them as well as having no idea how to make use of domestiques. It's weird.

Still hoping he has a monster day tomorrow and poetically does a reverse PDBF2020 but it's a big ask and his ITT form this year isnt giving much hopes.
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People who think they are better DSs for a WT team then the people in the job make me scratch my head. Lots of them on this forum!!!
 
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bill1109

Jul 19, 2010
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Carols said:
People who think they are better DSs for a WT team then the people in the job make me scratch my head. Lots of them on this forum!!!
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as if they are in the team bus lol its funny to watch. even if we may expect more from the cyclists, the forum ds are the most fun to watch. they dont want to be denied their race drama. the real ds always, always, always...knows more than we do. lol..to think, and even more, to post in a forum like they do not, well, that shows how logical fans are
 
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bNator

bNator

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Carols said:
People who think they are better DSs for a WT team then the people in the job make me scratch my head. Lots of them on this forum!!!
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I agree with you on this. But😁 TJV is a special case IMO. It has a history of dubious decisions where it was plain and simple they messed up or were taking unnecessary risk. I’ll even give Vingegaard as an example. In TDF 2021 while he was second in the GC, Kuss went for a stage victory. It all turned out well but many things could go wrong and they were lucky they weren’t unlucky… There’s many of similar examples where they either get too greedy, too confident in their ability. Even if you watch their documentaries and I don’t know how much of that is staged, but they seem to be discussing very basic stuff sometimes. So it’s to be expected that their decisions get doubted more frequently…
 
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Carols

Carols

Mar 20, 2010
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bNator said:
I agree with you on this. But😁 TJV is a special case IMO. It has a history of dubious decisions where it was plain and simple they messed up or were taking unnecessary risk. I’ll even give Vingegaard as an example. In TDF 2021 while he was second in the GC, Kuss went for a stage victory. It all turned out well but many things could go wrong and they were lucky they weren’t unlucky… There’s many of similar examples where they either get to greedy, to confident in their ability. Even if you watch their documentaries and I don’t know how much of that is staged, but they seem to be discussing very basic stuff sometimes. So it’s to be expected that their decisions get doubted more frequently…
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No comment
 
K

kingjr

Sep 9, 2012
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bNator said:
I agree with you on this. But😁 TJV is a special case IMO. It has a history of dubious decisions where it was plain and simple they messed up or were taking unnecessary risk. I’ll even give Vingegaard as an example. In TDF 2021 while he was second in the GC, Kuss went for a stage victory. It all turned out well but many things could go wrong and they were lucky they weren’t unlucky… There’s many of similar examples where they either get to greedy, to confident in their ability. Even if you watch their documentaries and I don’t know how much of that is staged, but they seem to be discussing very basic stuff sometimes. So it’s to be expected that their decisions get doubted more frequently…
Click to expand...
In their defence, it's a pretty basic sport
 
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bill1109

Jul 19, 2010
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bNator said:
I agree with you on this. But😁 TJV is a special case IMO. It has a history of dubious decisions where it was plain and simple they messed up or were taking unnecessary risk. I’ll even give Vingegaard as an example. In TDF 2021 while he was second in the GC, Kuss went for a stage victory. It all turned out well but many things could go wrong and they were lucky they weren’t unlucky… There’s many of similar examples where they either get to greedy, to confident in their ability. Even if you watch their documentaries and I don’t know how much of that is staged, but they seem to be discussing very basic stuff sometimes. So it’s to be expected that their decisions get doubted more frequently…
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so, a professional team, on a documentary, is going to reveal their true strategy? do you think they do, or should do this, and further, base their race decisions on what they reveal in the documentary? you or anyone here, is not smarter about a team or cycling in general, than a ds....they get more minute by minute info than you do...from...uhhhh actual riders. not from forum jockeys. but please keep the comedy coming. roglic is cleary injured or sick, but trying...if you really know cycling...if one does not have the legs, they cannot do magic things. i am a fan, but i dont expect him to win with how his performance has been...if he surprises..fine...if he has been bluffing...that is even more than fine. the team does what it can...if the leader cannot deliver, then they did what they could...that is riding in spt of the leader. that is as i see it. but i am no ds only a person that have watched all of these races for the last 20 years...or more
 
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bNator

bNator

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bill1109 said:
so, a professional team, on a documentary, is going to reveal their true strategy? do you think they do, or should do this, and further, base their race decisions on what they reveal in the documentary? you or anyone here, is not smarter about a team or cycling in general, than a ds....they get more minute by minute info than you do...from...uhhhh actual riders. not from forum jockeys. but please keep the comedy coming. roglic is cleary injured or sick, but trying...if you really know cycling...if one does not have the legs, they cannot do magic things. i am a fan, but i dont expect him to win with how his performance has been...if he surprises..fine...if he has been bluffing...that is even more than fine. the team does what it can...if the leader cannot deliver, then they did what they could...that is riding in spt of the leader. that is as i see it. but i am no ds only a person that have watched all of these races for the last 20 years...or more
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I don’t have any complaints about how they rode todays stage. Or this Giro. I thought they should go for it while they still could in the 2nd week but I was obviously wrong there.

But I don’t se the point in your or @Carols stance either. So we shouldn’t discuss team tactics now because we’re not pros? If that was true, then noone should have an opinion about anything except for what they do professionally. That’s a silly point… and except for guessing what’s going to happen in the future, we are left with pretty much no topics to discuss here.
 
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Põhja Konn

Põhja Konn

Sep 1, 2012
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JosefK said:
I'd be shocked if Rog doesn't lose time to Thomas in the MTT, based on everything Thomas has shown. Rog seems to be overachieving in week 3. I think the second crash was a big setback. Think back to stage 8, before the second crash. Rog had a hard acceleration on the stage 4 climb at the end. Tao was able to come across, but Thomas had to struggle more. Think back to the stage 1 ITT. Thomas lost time to Rog on the final hill. After the crash, Thomas has looked stronger (also stronger than everyone else).
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While Roglic wasn't exactly stellar in the first ITT, it's clear that Thomas' form improved more from stage 1 to stage 8. Also he has been more consistent than Roglic thus far in high mountains. Latter's previous GTs don't really lend itself to assumption of a major improvement from week one to week three of a GT either. As such I don't believe in a talk about the effects of crashes slowing him that much. Entire second week effectively consisted of rest days on wheels, with even the weather improving in the latter half.

I don't think stage 8 should be overestimated. It was shortish steep climb relatively early in the race, much better suited to Roglic than the Ineos duo, and yet despite Thomas struggling a bit, both him and TGH could stay with Rog in the end. I believe Remco dropping made his attack look stronger than it probably was - after all the dominating narrative back then was still the Remco vs Rog one.

However with less than half a minute behind Thomas, he is still very much in the game. Given the latters consistency however, he probably needs to be at least a level above what he has shown thus far to turn around the race and take the pink.
 
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Carols

Carols

Mar 20, 2010
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bNator said:
I don’t have any complaints about how they rode todays stage. Or this Giro. I thought they should go for it while they still could in the 2nd week but I was obviously wrong there.

But I don’t se the point in your or @Carols stance either. So we shouldn’t discuss team tactics now because we’re not pros? If that was true, then noone should have an opinion about anything except for what they do professionally. That’s a silly point… and expect for guessing what’s going to happen in the future, we are left with pretty much no topics to discuss here.
Click to expand...

There is a big difference between having an opinion and discussing team tactics and calling what a team does 'clueless', If someone thinks they're clueless and they know better go take a ds job.
 
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bNator

bNator

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Carols said:
There is a big difference between having an opinion and discussing team tactics and calling what a team does 'clueless', If someone thinks they're clueless and they know better go take a ds job.
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Yes, clueless is a rough way of putting it. But they (DSs) can make a mistake, obvious enough to be spotted by non-professionals. Everyone can, I don’t see why DSs would be any different.

And even “clueless” is probably meant in relation to their peers/competition and not compared to the poster (haven’t read the post, I’m guessing here)… I doubt it was meant literally.
 
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bill1109

Jul 19, 2010
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bNator said:
I don’t have any complaints about how they rode todays stage. Or this Giro. I thought they should go for it while they still could in the 2nd week but I was obviously wrong there.

But I don’t se the point in your or @Carols stance either. So we shouldn’t discuss team tactics now because we’re not pros? If that was true, then noone should have an opinion about anything except for what they do professionally. That’s a silly point… and except for guessing what’s going to happen in the future, we are left with pretty much no topics to discuss here.
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bring the discussions of tactics. its a forum. thats what its for. i'm just discussing my ideas and reactions to posts here. i probably will not post further. as carols has said before we need to enjoy these guys antics while we can. they all age, crash, etc. then they are gone. its a bike race. but many of us fans expect a lot from that. but we cannot be, well we can be, unrealistic is what we expect. anyway, enjoy the race....whoever wins is fine with me. i like roglic but i also like G and whomever wins. i think G is surprised that Rog is not stronger.
 
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bNator

bNator

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bill1109 said:
bring the discussions of tactics. its a forum. thats what its for. i'm just discussing my ideas and reactions to posts here. i probably will not post further. as carols has said before we need to enjoy these guys antics while we can. they all age, crash, etc. then they are gone. its a bike race. but many of us fans expect a lot from that. but we cannot be, well we can be, unrealistic is what we expect. anyway, enjoy the race....whoever wins is fine with me. i like roglic but i also like G and whomever wins. i think G is surprised that Rog is not stronger.
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I will. Just saying that claiming “they were right because they are professionals and you are not“ is an odd argument.

on another topic (trying to avoid another post): Rogla said for Slovenian TV he can’t wait for tomorrow’s stage. He seems genuinely happy and relaxed…
 
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Carols

Carols

Mar 20, 2010
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bNator said:
Yes, clueless is a rough way of putting it. But they (DSs) can make a mistake, obvious enough to be spotted by non-professionals. Everyone can, I don’t see why DSs would be any different.

And even “clueless” is probably meant in relation to their peers/competition and not compared to the poster (haven’t read the post, I’m guessing here)… I doubt it was meant literally.
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Well anyone stopping for a piss while your contender needs a bike deserves to be called on it. But those incidents are extremely unusual. Put a piss bottle in the car for goodness' sake!
Okay enough, enjoy. I'll pull out my hair in silence about the whine pit this forum has become.
 
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Netserk

Netserk

Apr 30, 2011
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bill1109 said:
lol ok
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Let me put it like this: When Brian Holm (former DS at QS and HTC) or Matti Breschel (current DS at EF) are commentators on Danish Eurosport, they do not read the race dynamics on a level higher or with greater accuracy as to what will unfold than I do.

As I made clear in the post you responded to, that does not mean that I think I'd make a better DS than they.
 
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bill1109

Jul 19, 2010
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bNator said:
I will. Just saying that claiming “they were right because they are professionals and you are not“ is an odd argument.

on another topic (trying to avoid another post): Rogla said for Slovenian TV he can’t wait for tomorrow’s stage. He seems genuinely happy and relaxed…
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i dont see that as an odd argument. i see it as a great argument. you are not a pro...sorry if you think you are. i am not either and i am fine with that. ..forum ppl love to question professionals and cycling is a great venue to do that since there are so many variables. No one is really sure...but the ds know their riders minute by minute...you or anyone here does not...all we see are race clips...if you think you do then i believe you take yourself too seriously. if you think that respecting pro opinions and tactics over a non pro is not reasonable, then that is ok, but i dont agree with that. as i said, its a forum...for all to comment. i hope you are right in your views. i dont really care if i am right in mine. i dont bet, i dont make claims as to who will win, i take a race for what it is. i have not ridden those mountains, i am not a racer...just in case that will be thrown at me. but i dont really care who wins. i like G, and rogla...both of these guys are getting older so we have to accept that they will decline...be it due to crashes, age, etc...so be it.
 
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bNator

bNator

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bill1109 said:
i dont see that as an odd argument. i see it as a great argument. you are not a pro...sorry if you think you are. i am not either and i am fine with that. ..forum ppl love to question professionals and cycling is a great venue to do that since there are so many variables. No one is really sure...but the ds know their riders minute by minute...you or anyone here does not...all we see are race clips...if you think you do then i believe you take yourself too seriously. if you think that respecting pro opinions and tactics over a non pro is not reasonable, then that is ok, but i dont agree with that. as i said, its a forum...for all to comment. i hope you are right in your views. i dont really care if i am right in mine. i dont bet, i dont make claims as to who will win, i take a race for what it is. i have not ridden those mountains, i am not a racer...just in case that will be thrown at me. but i dont really care who wins. i like G, and rogla...both of these guys are getting older so we have to accept that they will decline...be it due to crashes, age, etc...so be it.
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I am not saying I am pro, I don’t think I’m a pro, I am not sorry I’m not pro and I don’t think I know better than a pro. I can have an opinion that pros messed up or that certain pros do their job better than other pros without all of the above… Being a pro in something, I am also trying to have an opened mind to suggestions of people who are not pros at that same thing. And sometimes, they have good suggestions…
 
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