Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[bNator]

Sorry, but it's a rule, a made up concoction, not a necessity. I don't like the premise, given all else is awarded by actual time gaps. Who made up this rule? Ability nets stage wins, but that should not come with a gift in seconds, especially when it doesn't on all stages. And I say this in premise, not based on anyone's ability.

I don't think we are talking about the same thing. I meant "neccessity/ability" from the viewpoint of a rider in terms of who wants to win those seconds under current set of rules. Everybody (that's going for GC)...

You are talking about who wants that rule in the first place. That is definitely not everybody... Personally I think without bonus seconds, the race dynamics would change completely. Breakaways would more often be let go and races would not be ridden as hard as they are. Which I like.

 

[Extinction]

I don't think we are talking about the same thing. I meant "neccessity/ability" from the viewpoint of a rider in terms of who wants to win those seconds under current set of rules. Everybody (that's going for GC)...

You are talking about who wants that rule in the first place. That is definitely not everybody... Personally I think without bonus seconds, the race dynamics would change completely. Breakaways would more often be let go and races would not be ridden as hard as they are. Which I like.

To the bolded, but would they though? In the Tour, for example, winning a mountain stage is always appealing to the GC guys. Although arguably, without the incentive of bonus seconds, breaks would have a greater chance of staying away. Not for this, however, would the racing necessarily be less spectacular. Frankly, as I've said, I just don't like giving time as a prize, especially if it were to make a decisive impact on the final GC. To win on bonus seconds to me would diminish the victory, because it wasn't time actually gained on the road. Evidently, however, those in charge either don't see it that way or aren't bothered by it.

 

[gregrowlerson]

People complain in here about apparently a lack of long range attacks, but complain about those same attacks in the clinic if they happen and succeed.

 

[Andy schleck]

Jumbo presented the team for Vuelta. Roglič in second place again and Vinge first.

It's natural put the tour france winner in first.

 

[acm]

No, it's not.

 

[theyoungest]

No, it's not.

Of course it is. Don't look for signs of disrespect for Roglic everywhere, because if you're going to look obviously you're going to find them.

Some Roglic fans are like conspiracy thinkers.

 

[samhocking]

Let's not pretend Roglic needs bonus seconds to win. In the Giro he gathered a grand total of 6 bonus seconds. Over the whole race.

I never pretended he needs them to win, I was commenting on his race strategy at La Vuelta where it seems pretty obvious not attacking and racing for time bonuses are a consistent tactic to help win that race. Giro 2023 was a very different race with Remco out, his tactic there seemed he put all his eggs into not attacking Thomas in pink and win it in the final TT.

 

[acm]

Of course it is. Don't look for signs of disrespect for Roglic everywhere, because if you're going to look obviously you're going to find them.

Some Roglic fans are like conspiracy thinkers.

No, it's not. And I'm not even talking about disrespect or anything that you wrote. It's just a list. SQS put Bagioli in the first place, not a world champion.

 

[Bonimenier]

No, it's not. And I'm not even talking about disrespect or anything that you wrote. It's just a list. SQS put Bagioli in the first place, not a world champion.

I'm sure you're smart enough to figure out why Bagioli was first on that list.

 

[Berniece]

No, it's not. And I'm not even talking about disrespect or anything that you wrote. It's just a list. SQS put Bagioli in the first place, not a world champion.

I think you are correct, as long as we don't have start numbers I wouldn't take note of how they announced the team. Also Vingegaard is 2-time TDF winner, would it be weird if he has the 1st number of the team? Would make a lot of sense honestly.

 

[acm]

I'm sure you're smart enough to figure out why Bagioli was first on that list.

No *** sherlock. I just wrote an example where the first on the list is not necessarily the number one on the team.

 

[bNator]

Ok so one of them must be listed first and one of them must carry the X1 number. Why would it make more sense for Roglič to carry X1 than Vingegaard? By what logic? As far as recent results go, Vingegaard is a better GT rider, is higher in the UCI standings and is a clear betting favourite. Besides, I fail to see how this carries any importance whatsoever. Let's wait until TJV actually **** Roglič over before we cry about it...

 

[Rackham]

This thread will explode next week, one way or another.

I mean imagine the 2018 TdF (Roglič & Kruijswijk as co-captains)... but for the actual win? It would have been a tactical & team relationship bloodbath.

But whatever, the ride is going to be a lot of fun IMO. I just keep in mind the fact Rog's season has already been a success & it's not like he's expected to win here (a Giro-Vuelta double is itself very rare, i.e. even Bernal in great form in the 2021 season struggled to matter in the 2021 Vuelta). So I don't pay much attention to the overarching narrative that somehow Rog should be in prime perfect condition at the Vuelta. It'll require a second major peak this season, one arguably higher than the first.

I still think he'll win, mind (I'm an eternal optimist), but I also expect some sort of "tetchiness" both on & off the road in the battle with Vinge & Evenepoel. Certainly with Evenepoel (similar to what we saw in Catalunya), but there's lots of potential for tactical snafus with Vingegaard as well.

 

[Riek s]

But whatever, the ride is going to be a lot of fun IMO. I just keep in mind the fact Rog's season has already been a success & it's not like he's expected to win here (a Giro-Vuelta double is itself very rare, i.e. even Bernal in great form in the 2021 season struggled to matter in the 2021 Vuelta). So I don't pay much attention to the overarching narrative that somehow Rog should be in prime perfect condition at the Vuelta. It'll require a second major peak this season, one arguably higher than the first.

The same is true for Remco (the peak, not the 3week GT), Vingegaard, Almeida, Thomas. They all have had their absolute peak already as well.
Of those the only one who has realy experience with multiple GT (peaks) in combination with winning position is Roglic. He was already very close before, don't see why he wouldn't be able to repeat that.
I agree that the internal kitchen of JV can turn out negative for Roglic as well. You will just need to hope Roglic won't have to ride for Ving when they are still within armslength or not complete written of. (e.g. not like what QS did with Remco/Almeida in the 2021 Giro) because with Ving they have the danger he can fade in the 3rd week.

 

[ciranda]

This thread will explode next week, one way or another.

I mean imagine the 2018 TdF (Roglič & Kruijswijk as co-captains)... but for the actual win? It would have been a tactical & team relationship bloodbath.

But whatever, the ride is going to be a lot of fun IMO. I just keep in mind the fact Rog's season has already been a success & it's not like he's expected to win here (a Giro-Vuelta double is itself very rare, i.e. even Bernal in great form in the 2021 season struggled to matter in the 2021 Vuelta). So I don't pay much attention to the overarching narrative that somehow Rog should be in prime perfect condition at the Vuelta. It'll require a second major peak this season, one arguably higher than the first.

I still think he'll win, mind (I'm an eternal optimist), but I also expect some sort of "tetchiness" both on & off the road in the battle with Vinge & Evenepoel. Certainly with Evenepoel (similar to what we saw in Catalunya), but there's lots of potential for tactical snafus with Vingegaard as well.

where are the signs that these guys will find this race important enough to become enemies over? Roglic have already won several vueltas, Vingegaard is competitive for sure but not the type to make demands or get too agitated, the impression is he don't think of cycling races as that important. it's objectively difficult to believe they will race against each other

who will get Jumbo's # -1 number and what will it mean? I expect a 1,000 word analysis

 

[Rackham]

where are the signs that these guys will find this race important enough to become enemies over? Roglic have already won several vueltas, Vingegaard is competitive for sure but not the type to make demands or get too agitated, the impression is he don't think of cycling races as that important. it's objectively difficult to believe they will race against each other

who will get Jumbo's # -1 number and what will it mean? I expect a 1,000 word analysis

No analysis, just the fact it's been well documented Roglič was very unhappy during the 2022 Tour de France.

It was successful for the team & Vingegaard, but Rog hated it (this was also covered in a recent book about Jumbo & that Tour in particular).

So I'll throw my hat into the ring here & say it's very, very unlikely Rog will sacrifice himself for Vingegaard in this Vuelta, at any moment.

 

[Valv.Piti]

No analysis, just the fact it's been well documented Roglič was very unhappy during the 2022 Tour de France.

It was successful for the team & Vingegaard, but Rog hated it (this was also covered in a recent book about Jumbo & that Tour in particular).

So I'll throw my hat into the ring here & say it's very, very unlikely Rog will sacrifice himself for Vingegaard in this Vuelta, at any moment.

Of course he hated it. The guy crashed hard and was never himself. Everyone would have hated it.

Lets not overdramatize stuff just for the sake of it now and let the road decide. Plenty of monstrous stages to overcome, and if he's the strongest, he will win.

 

[Rackham]

Of course he hated it. The guy crashed hard and was never himself. Everyone would have hated it.

Lets not overdramatize stuff just for the sake of it now and let the road decide. Plenty of monstrous stages to overcome, and if he's the strongest, he will win.

There's no drama. I'm just saying what I expect to see based on what's happened in the past (& the sort of rider Rog is anyway).

He isn't a domestique. If Vinge puts 7 minutes into everyone, he doesn't need Rog to pull for him, likewise if Rog is still close in GC (even a minute down), he'll still ride for himself. The reverse (for Vingegaard) is also true.

It'll be a battle between the Jumbo riders, not a "every Jumbo rider sacrifices himself to get Jonas into the leaders jersey" like on Granon last year in the TdF.

 

[ciranda]

No analysis, just the fact it's been well documented Roglič was very unhappy during the 2022 Tour de France.

It was successful for the team & Vingegaard, but Rog hated it (this was also covered in a recent book about Jumbo & that Tour in particular).

So I'll throw my hat into the ring here & say it's very, very unlikely Rog will sacrifice himself for Vingegaard in this Vuelta, at any moment.

what has he said? he looked happy at the granon stage finish

 

[Andy schleck]

No analysis, just the fact it's been well documented Roglič was very unhappy during the 2022 Tour de France.

It was successful for the team & Vingegaard, but Rog hated it (this was also covered in a recent book about Jumbo & that Tour in particular).

So I'll throw my hat into the ring here & say it's very, very unlikely Rog will sacrifice himself for Vingegaard in this Vuelta, at any moment.

Before being unhappy, he should try to stay on the bike instead of always crashing.
The weakest of them in the race, should sacrifice for the other. The road will answer that.

 

[Rackham]

Before being unhappy, he should try to stay on the bike instead of always crashing.
The weakest of them in the race, should sacrifice for the other. The road will answer that.

Does that even happen? Granon was a total one off situation (a bluff), because usually dual leadership is always about two guys just staying at the front for as long as possible, until the rider who is mathematically the most 'screwed' is told to pull for the other. But there's loads of examples of two riders ('especially when they're at least podium favorites) who just ride their own race for the entire GT. A bit like Thomas & Bernal in the 2019 TdF.

I expect Rog & Vinge to race their own race until the very end. There could perhaps be a 'hail mary' attempt at some point but that'll come much later.

 

[Andy schleck]

Does that even happen? Granon was a total one off situation (a bluff), because usually dual leadership is always about two guys just staying at the front for as long as possible, until the rider who is mathematically the most 'screwed' is told to pull for the other. But there's loads of examples of two riders ('especially when they're at least podium favorites) who just ride their own race for the entire GT. A bit like Thomas & Bernal in the 2019 TdF.

I expect Rog & Vinge to race their own race until the very end. There could perhaps be a 'hail mary' attempt at some point but that'll come much later.

I expect that they will ride their own race until someone shows that he is better than the other, after lost some significant time. Vingegaard will work without problems to roglic if that happen. He's got a low ego and already won the tour twice.

 

[Berniece]

I expect that they will ride their own race until someone shows that he is better than the other, after lost some significant time. Vingegaard will work without problems to roglic if that happen. He's got a low ego and already won the tour twice.

I don’t see it happening the other way around though

 

[Andy schleck]

I don’t see it happening the other way around though

Unfortunately i think the same.....

 

[Red Rick]

If one of Roglic or Vingegaard, falls out of contention for some reason, I have no doubt they will work for the other to win as a team .