Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Extinction]

Yeah. Maybe they will at least get the fair play award. Jokes aside. With dedicated team support Rogla likely wouldn't have lost time today. In regards to the fair play. We'll see if the team will bail Rogla out in times of needs. This GT in the end is a sort of experiment anyway. The outcome likely determining the shape and the future of this team.

You seem to think "fair play" is the issue here, as if the team lapsed into some politically correct sindrome; when it simply has to do with abiding by a just protocal. I bet the team orders were before the start: we wait if either Jonas or Primoz has a problem. It has nothing to do with "fair play," but taking on the responsibility of having two leaders to protect at this stage of the race.

 

[Oldermanish]

Beating Vingegaard in the Vuelta is very different to beating him in the Tour. Vingegaard is a step above Pogacar at GTs and Pogacar is a step above Roglic.

Your math is an amalgram of past happenings. This is the Vuelta now and Remco is the target. Focus.

 

[Rackham]

Of course the rules in the team are simple & yesterday was extremely straight-forward: wait for one of the two leaders if a snafu happens.

A/If it had happened to Rogla, Jumbo would have waited.

B/It really was sh*t bad luck.

C/It also does demonstrate how dual leadership is a double edged sword & can hinder both. Because yes, on the cobbled stage in the TdF last year if Rog has full leadership he doesn't lose those minutes, fractured back or not. The "we're stronger with two leaders" mantra has never been totally factual in cycling. Here in the Vuelta it's mostly just a courtesy from the team to accommodate their GC two stars.

D/Imagine a TTT in next years TdF... & Rog punctures... & the team waits for him. I imagine the reaction from the Vinge crowd would be quite spectacular (something like "the Tour champ shouldn't have to wait for Rog!").

Anyway this Vuelta is already in an "interesting place' in terms of GC because Jumbo now need to be aggressive, although honestly looking at the weather forecast for Barcelona today, the absolute necessity is to survive without incidents. And protect both leaders, or else the narrative will quickly sour if one of them gets screwed over as early as the first few stages.

 

[Red Rick]

Of course the rules in the team are simple & yesterday was extremely straight-forward: wait for one of the two leaders if a snafu happens.

A/If it had happened to Rogla, Jumbo would have waited.

B/It really was sh*t bad luck.

C/It also does demonstrate how dual leadership is a double edged sword & can hinder both. Because yes, on the cobbled stage in the TdF last year if Rog has full leadership he doesn't lose those minutes, fractured back or not. The "we're stronger with two leaders" mantra has never been totally factual in cycling. Here in the Vuelta it's mostly just a courtesy from the team to accommodate their GC two stars.

D/Imagine a TTT in next years TdF... & Rog punctures... & the team waits for him. I imagine the reaction from the Vinge crowd would be quite spectacular (something like "the Tour champ shouldn't have to wait for Rog!").

Anyway this Vuelta is already in an "interesting place' in terms of GC because Jumbo now need to be aggressive, although honestly looking at the weather forecast for Barcelona today, the absolute necessity is to survive without incidents. And protect both leaders, or else the narrative will quickly sour if one of them gets screwed over as early as the first few stages.

Dual leadership can be really good, especially in scenarios you have 2 out of 3 or 4 equal top GC riders.

There are easily more GTs that were lost by backing the wrong horse than were lost by making tactical errors because they had multiple leaders.

 

[tobydawq]

Apparently, the jokester Roglic from 2021 is back.

He thought it was cool with the rain yesterday because when they were sweeping the ramp before them to get the rain off it reminded him of his ski jumping days (who knew he was a ski jumper?!) when they would sweep the ramp for snow!

 

[Valv.Piti]

Stupid to speculate if Jumbo would have waited for Roglic, and even more stupid to suggest that they wouldn't and bring up the cobbled stage from last year. Of course they would have waited for Roglic - Vingegaard said so as well - and you simply cannot compare it to that particular stage.

Im not at all surprised though given it comes from CyclistAbi.

 

[Rackham]

Dual leadership can be really good, especially in scenarios you have 2 out of 3 or 4 equal top GC riders.

There are easily more GTs that were lost by backing the wrong horse than were lost by making tactical errors because they had multiple leaders.

Sure, I called it a double edged sword.

When Vingegaard attacks & Rog can jump on Evenepoel's wheel before countering (for example), then it's a net benefit. But yesterday it wasn't a benefit.

I think it's only fair to have a balanced appraisal of this type of set-up, i.e. just because it can provide good tactical situations (like on Granon most famously) it doesn't change the fact it can also cause problems when the team has to make snap decisions & "lesser of two evils" calls which can undermine one or both leaders.

FYI I have no complaints about yesterday. I'm just happy no one crashed tbh.

 

[theyoungest]

If they waited for 10 or 15s when he was chasing alone, he would have the whole team. Not just Kruijswijk and Benoot.

Oh sure, in hindsight they could have done everything just perfectly. But in the chaos of the situation they made the right choices. At least save one of your GC men, and give the other enough help to not lose a massive amount of time.

 

[Divergence]

It seems Rog has to win this Vuelta with an anchor on his back wheel. OK, it is doable.
But, if he manages to win tho whole thing whilst dragging Jonas around to possibly a podium it should really open the eyes of Jumbo Visma. And if ti does not, he should really look for another team..

 

[acm]

At least save one of your GC men, and give the other enough help to not lose a massive amount of time.

I could say the same for yesterday's stage.

 

[RedheadDane]

It seems Rog has to win this Vuelta with an anchor on his back wheel. OK, it is doable.
But, if he manages to win tho whole thing whilst dragging Jonas around to possibly a podium it should really open the eyes of Jumbo Visma. And if ti does not, he should really look for another team..

Yes, because it's absolutely unthinkable that Vingegaard might help Roglic win the Vuelta, if Roglic turns out to be the strongest.

 

[Divergence]

Yes, because it's absolutely unthinkable that Vingegaard might help Roglic win the Vuelta, if Roglic turns out to be the strongest.

He already did not, but costing him 30sec

 

[RedheadDane]

He already did not, but costing him 30sec

I hardly think he punctured on purpose... also, it was literally the first stage; plenty of opportunity for Vingegaard to help Roglic.
They could hardly just have left the co-leader behind to fend for himself. And even just - as some has suggested - letting four riders continue with Roglic, for the minimum-required five riders, while two stayed behind with Vingegaard would have been risky; what if another rider had punctured? Then they'd have had to wait for him.

 

[Divergence]

I hardly think he punctured on purpose... also, it was literally the first stage; plenty of opportunity for Vingegaard to help Roglic.
They could hardly just have left the co-leader behind to fend for himself. And even just - as some has suggested - letting four riders continue with Roglic, for the minimum-required five riders, while two stayed behind with Vingegaard would have been risky; what if another rider had punctured? Then they'd have had to wait for him.

Yes, but had they left him alone none of this would be a discussion. I am not even saying what Jumbo did is wrong. I am just saying Jonas cost Rog a minimum of 30 sec already and not even 20km have been ridden

 

[RedheadDane]

Yes, but had they left him alone none of this would be a discussion. I am not even saying what Jumbo did is wrong. I am just saying Jonas cost Rog a minimum of 30 sec already and not even 20km have been ridden

I'm pretty sure if they'd left the co-leader behind, it would have caused a pretty big discussion... Or, are you saying that if the opposite had been the case, and Roglic had punctured, then it would have been perfectly okay to leave him behind?

 

[Divergence]

I'm pretty sure if they'd left the co-leader behind, it would have caused a pretty big discussion... Or, are you saying that if the opposite had been the case, and Roglic had punctured, then it would have been perfectly okay to leave him behind?

No, I am not saying that. If you bring two guys at the race on equal footing you wain for whoever has punctured. However, the fact remains that Jonas' puncture cost Rog 30s.

 

[RedheadDane]

No, I am not saying that. If you bring two guys at the race on equal footing you wain for whoever has punctured. However, the fact remains that Jonas' puncture cost Rog 30s.

Yeah, it also cost Vingegaard 30 seconds... Besides, if Roglic turns out to be the strongest, Vingegaard could very well help him gain over a minute. The whole "Roglic will have to drag Vingegaard around!" just doesn't make sense.

 

[Divergence]

Yeah, it also cost Vingegaard 30 seconds... Besides, if Roglic turns out to be the strongest, Vingegaard could very well help him gain over a minute. The whole "Roglic will have to drag Vingegaard around!" just doesn't make sense.

Well that is a bit of tongue in cheek, but I do believe that Rog is the strongest and certainly the stronger of the two. So, starting 30s down because of someone else's bad luck is not ideal.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Well that is a bit of tongue in cheek, but I do believe that Rog is the strongest and certainly the stronger of the two. So, starting 30s down because of someone else's bad luck is not ideal.

No, but it's not race over yet. Roglič crashing did cost Vingegaard 13 seconds in last year's Tour de France (by your logic), but he ended up winning it pretty convincingly anyway.

 

[Divergence]

No, but it's not race over yet. Roglič crashing did cost Vingegaard 13 seconds in last year's Tour de France (by your logic), but he ended up winning it pretty convincingly anyway.

Vingo punctured, everybody bar Laporte dropped back to save him, which left Rog without a team and certainly did not help him avoid the hay bale. After Rog crashed the whole team which was with Vingo sailed past Rog like he was not there and in the end Jumbo sent some spent guys to help Rog to the finish. Therefore, Rog did not cost Vingo anything.
On the other hand, that was another example where VIngo cost Rog a heap.

 

[Bonimenier]

Vingo punctured, everybody bar Laporte dropped back to save him, which left Rog without a team and certainly did not help him avoid the hay bale. After Rog crashed the whole team which was with Vingo sailed past Rog like he was not there and in the end Jumbo sent some spent guys to help Rog to the finish. Therefore, Rog did not cost Vingo anything.
On the other hand, that was another example where VIngo cost Rog a heap.

If JV didn't drop riders back to Roglic, the group with Vingegaard certainly would have catched Pogacar. So yes, Roglic did cost Vingegaard 13 seconds. For someone who is that good at making up scenarios for when and how a rider cost another rider time, that should have been very obvious for you to figure out.

 

[acm]

If JV didn't drop riders back to Roglic, the group with Vingegaard certainly would have catched Pogacar. So yes, Roglic did cost Vingegaard 13 seconds. For someone who is that good at making up scenarios for when and how a rider cost another rider time, that should have been very obvious for you to figure out.

Yeah right, Kruijswijk would catch Pogi.

 

[Divergence]

If JV didn't drop riders back to Roglic, the group with Vingegaard certainly would have catched Pogacar. So yes, Roglic did cost Vingegaard 13 seconds. For someone who is that good at making up scenarios for when and how a rider cost another rider time, that should have been very obvious for you to figure out.

I do not believe that to be the case.

 

[Bonimenier]

Yeah right, Kruijswijk would catch Pogi.

If you don't think having 2 extra teammates chasing would have made 13 seconds difference, I don't know what to tell you. You might wanna rewatch the stage to see what teammates were with Roglic, because that's the second time you wrongly claimed it was just Kruijswijk.

 

[Divergence]

If you don't think having 2 extra teammates chasing would have made 13 seconds difference, I don't know what to tell you. You might wanna rewatch the stage to see what teammates were with Roglic, because that's the second time you wrongly claimed it was just Kruijswijk.

It was van hoydonk and one more. In any case, those guys spent themselves on the front of the Vingo group and could not do more. Then they got caught by Rog and rode to the end.