Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[pablohidalgo7]

We are acting as if Roglic were not a machine of producing great numbers in training, when precisely that has always been one of his great strengths, I highly doubt that in the majority of tests Vingegaard is clearly superior or simply superior, the Dane's greatest advantage It is in the recovery and the ability to replicate almost the same numbers in hard race situations as when he is fresh, something quite difficult to measure in training. At most they could be based on data from the competitions themselves, although in Roglic's case it would not be a fair comparision because it rarely has a preparation or a GT in itself, without setbacks.
So it makes more sense for them to base it on the fact that Jonas is simply younger and has had two magnificent Tours without setbacks, another of his strengths and also in team cohesion, having a rider who isn´t comfortable there against his will is not a great idea and more so to someone who has given you so much and you should show respect and not give a bad image together at the end of the journey.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Well if nothing else, you are staying true to your approach, where you feel you are entitled to express your opinion, expect others to acknowledge and respect your opinion yet do nothing to acknowledge and respect opinions of others yourself.

Who are you to say a discussion is over after you make negative comments that call for a reply? You said what you were going to say and now we shouldn’t bother you - yet you are free to bother other people whenever you feel like it.

Cognitivie laziness? Next time, you should consider how much effort it took you to refer to a podcast, post an instagram link or construct a meaningful comprehensive sentence...

I fully agree with this. That is we all should refrain our self to preach to others.

I responded due to people feeling entitled to preach to me and suggesting i can't write, on how should i post, then when saying scrap that, it's for me to decide, further claims were made on how i am not polite and on how i should live by some other standard. Your whole post for example is really about preaching to me, something.

So yeah, get real.

As for cognitive laziness i feel it was the right thing to say. You should have watched the video i posted, before making the claims. As otherwise it's not really a discussion about the content itself. But more about me. So when i made the first post, OK some didn't understand on what i was on about, but when i posted the video explaining it. That should settle it and it didn't. So i do agree with the sentiment of your post. I hope all involved read it and do stick to it.

 

[CyclistAbi]

It is in the current iteration. They know the facts and thus what can be done and what cannot be done, variables notwithstanding, as it's all about scientific predictions, based upon numerical probabilities. Go be a mountain goat and that's what you do, or go be a domestique and that's what you do. Go be a GT champion and, bar few, it's not what you do.

Nah, it's still mostly about human body and soul.

P.S. Modern F1 on the other hand is much more about on who will get delegated the best technical package, although i agree the driver still needs to be talented. And the other problem is this then last for duration of lets say 5 years, then they introduce some changes and delegate the technical package to some other talented driver. It's just some self serving money machine and the rest was mostly lost.

 

[Extinction]

I'm not sure I understood your previous post correctly, but what I'm trying to say is it's not an exact science. Sure, Visma can have some idea based on their numbers how things are likely to go in 2024 and based on those numbers (and common sense) it makes sense to keep Vingegaard and ditch Roglic. But Vingegaard can have a bad year and Roglic a good one (the consequence of a change in parameters I was referring to) and all that science and numbers can suddenly look quite silly, which is what the cognitively active poster you were replying to was probably trying to convey (though we can't be sure, can we?).

Bottom line is, Roglic is a GT winning material, as he has proven many times. He was one stage away from winning TdF and saying he can't win TdF is ridiculous. Visma did let go a potential TdF winner (not to mention a consistent winner of some 15 races per year) so it probably wasn't as easy a decision as some provocateurs here would like it to be. Of course they kept a guy, who has won TdF and who is more likely to win TdF in the future, got some well-needed money and kept their team dynamics in check (for now). So it could turn out to be a correct decision for them...

As I have stated previously you can't plan thinking of the possiblity of having a bad season, but only on previous facts. And Vingegaard at the last two Tours was simply on another level, which neither Roglic, nor Pogacar have reached. I thus think its fair to say that Jonas is more aerobically efficient, that his ceiling is just higher than the rest. Naturally anyone can have a bad year, for which, yes, Roglic could still win the Tour in the twilight of his career. However, all things considered, if Vingegaard doesn't have a bad year, and there's no reason to think in the golden years of his career he's in right now that he would, bar crash or crazy incident, I don't think Roglic can beat him. Apparently Visma "knows" this based on the parameters they have in their files on each rider. So unless Roglic can up his game, victory at the Tour, while not impossible, I posit remains unlikely.

 

[Extinction]

Nah, it's still mostly about human body and soul.

P.S. Modern F1 on the other hand is much more about on who will get delegated the best technical package, although i agree the driver still needs to be talented. And the other problem is this then last for duration of lets say 5 years, then they introduce some changes and delegate the technical package to some other talented driver. It's just some self serving money machine and the rest was mostly lost.

I'm not so sure cycling hasn't also become about "who will get delegated the best technical package" in its various manifestations.

 

[acm]

Martinez is learning quickly from Rogla.
First lesson: how to outsprint Remco.
Done.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I'm not so sure cycling hasn't also become about "who will get delegated the best technical package" in its various manifestations.

It for sure is about technology too, but to much much lesser extent. Top riders swapping bikes would not make much difference.

 

[Netserk]

Martinez is learning quickly from Rogla.
First lesson: how to outsprint Remco.
Done.

Everyone knows they need to step up. The country finally has a king again.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

It’s really fascinating to see smart posters incapable of nuance here. It isn’t binary. They can think they have a higher probability of success this year and beyond with Vingegaard, while still being concerned Roglic could beat him in the Tour, and let Roglic walk. These are all simultaneously possible. I’m not sure where all this binary thinking is coming from, but I guess it’s 2024 and that’s just how it goes.

Has everyone already forgotten that Vingegaard did 20 watts more in the ITT than he thought he could do based on training? He thought his power meter was broken. And Roglic underperformed in the 2020 ITT. They’re not computers.

 

[Netserk]

It’s really fascinating to see smart posters incapable of nuance here. It isn’t binary. They can think they have a higher probability of success this year and beyond with Vingegaard, while still being concerned Roglic could beat him in the Tour, and let Roglic walk. These are all simultaneously possible. I’m not sure where all this binary thinking is coming from, but I guess it’s 2024 and that’s just how it goes.

Has everyone already forgotten that Vingegaard did 20 watts more in the ITT than he thought he could do based on training? He thought his power meter was broken. And Roglic underperformed in the 2020 ITT. They’re not computers.

Sorry, but my computer says that the 2024 Tour de France salad bowl is already in Rogla's trophy cabinet. Do you want a Tour?

 

[Oldermanish]

As I have stated previously you can't plan thinking of the possiblity of having a bad season, but only on previous facts. And Vingegaard at the last two Tours was simply on another level, which neither Roglic, nor Pogacar have reached. I thus think its fair to say that Jonas is more aerobically efficient, that his ceiling is just higher than the rest. Naturally anyone can have a bad year, for which, yes, Roglic could still win the Tour in the twilight of his career. However, all things considered, if Vingegaard doesn't have a bad year, and there's no reason to think in the golden years of his career he's in right now that he would, bar crash or crazy incident, I don't think Roglic can beat him. Apparently Visma "knows" this based on the parameters they have in their files on each rider. So unless Roglic can up his game, victory at the Tour, while not impossible, I posit remains unlikely.

I still contend Visma created a problem best solved by letting Roglic move on and not keeping him for some sort of insurance. Too expensive and fraught with political intrigue.
As for his age being an issue; I don't think there has been any drop off in his abilities and acknowledge that Jonas has been situationally superior in the Tour. If all conditions remain the same the odds are in Pogi or Jonas' favor. If Roglic plans his Tour minus any major deviations I'd say his odds are much better than prior Tours. He's made enough mistakes to know what needs improvement. Tactics may be more important this year than ever.

 

[Extinction]

I still contend Visma created a problem best solved by letting Roglic move on and not keeping him for some sort of insurance. Too expensive and fraught with political intrigue.
As for his age being an issue; I don't think there has been any drop off in his abilities and acknowledge that Jonas has been situationally superior in the Tour. If all conditions remain the same the odds are in Pogi or Jonas' favor. If Roglic plans his Tour minus any major deviations I'd say his odds are much better than prior Tours. He's made enough mistakes to know what needs improvement. Tactics may be more important this year than ever.

And "fraught with political intrigue" beckons to ask why? What do you mean by this statement? As far as age is concerned, we now know that a really pure and disciplined cyclist, without vices, can go very well into his early 40s, and with Roglic this seems to be the case. Roglic's odds increase if Bora can create the ideal situation for him. Ironically, I think they can.

 

[Lequack]

Training in Tenerife

 

[Froome]

Training in Tenerife

Always wheelsucking someone, unbelievable.

 

[proffate]

It is in the recovery and the ability to replicate almost the same numbers in hard race situations as when he is fresh, something quite difficult to measure in training.

It's pretty easy actually, although it's true that we as fans don't have access to these insights since they don't post everything on strava. Freely available training software will track your ATL/CTL aka "fitness" and "fatigue" and even without trying amateurs will discover the long-term training load they can withstand as measured in TSS per day/week/month. You don't have to actually ride a GT to determine the long-term training load you can withstand.

 

[Berniece]

Always wheelsucking someone, unbelievable.

They are trying to replicate a race like environment

 

[CyclistAbi]

So in the past couple of days Rogla did a couple of interviews. When racing, he seen that at Bora they completely changed their strategy and goals in the past two years and feels the team is "fully armed" to back him. He is interested in further developing the team too, aside from his personal ambitions. The idea to change the environment matured for a while and reached the tipping point at third week of Vuelta. He believes Pogi has a good chance at winning the Giro, as weather and the route should suit him. He barely knew Pogi in 2020 and now he knows he is a nice guy and a great champion. Although on the road they are rivals they get along well when spending time together on travels and such and he respects him.

On a side note. Due to Roglič doing the same i said i will too achieve one hard goal this year, knowing i am capable of achieving and being on a todo list for years now. Well, it's February, Rogla not yet having a single race day in his legs and i already completed it. Gosh, i should have tried sooner!

P.S. Bob Jungels would like to support Rogla at the Tour.

 

[cen]

Only t-10 days for first appearance this year? LFG!

 

[Froome]

Only t-10 days for first appearance this year? LFG!

If Bora wins the TTT or is more faster than Quick Step, the next stages will be fun, specially in this forum.

 

[SHAD0W93]

If Bora wins the TTT or is more faster than Quick Step, the next stages will be fun, specially in this forum.

It would make spotting Roglic before the final 200 meter stomp easier.

 

[Froome]

It would make spotting Roglic before the final 200 meter stomp easier.

Roglic would ride in a comfortable way in the mountain stages because he will be in advantage, and Remco will have to attack.

 

[Oldermanish]

It's pretty easy actually, although it's true that we as fans don't have access to these insights since they don't post everything on strava. Freely available training software will track your ATL/CTL aka "fitness" and "fatigue" and even without trying amateurs will discover the long-term training load they can withstand as measured in TSS per day/week/month. You don't have to actually ride a GT to determine the long-term training load you can withstand.

You would need to ride a GT to understand 3 weeks of stressful racing. It's not just the actual race for the contenders; it's how they handle press relations, schedule demands post-race and just getting decent sleep moving from place to place every day. You could attempt to replicate that but racing does seem to be the best proving ground for potential.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Rogla actually hinted that in season 2024 he won't necessary go for the win in every stage race he enters. Focus being on optimal preparation for the Tour. Now the question i guess is on how plausible that actually is.

We'll see soon.

 

[Gargamel35]

Rogla actually hinted that in season 2024 he won't necessary go for the win in every stage race he enters. Focus being on optimal preparation for the Tour. Now the question i guess is on how plausible that actually is.

We'll see soon.

I think this year EVERYTHING is only preparation for Tour. It's all in. He'll try, win or loose and then move on to other races. He just needs one 100% attempt to put his mind at ease.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Rogla actually hinted that in season 2024 he won't necessary go for the win in every stage race he enters. Focus being on optimal preparation for the Tour. Now the question i guess is on how plausible that actually is.

We'll see soon.

Expect Rogla being fat in PN: "I only want to peak for the Tour so I took it easy and had some hamburger evenings with Remco" only to prepare a monster "ski-jumper weight" peak for the Tour demolishing Skeletor, Teddy and co.