Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[ice&fire]

Roglic or the DS has a lot of explaining to do for this abomination. What was he doing?

If the DS doesn't stop for a toilet break at a key moment of a stage that's already an improvement.

 

[Ripper]

I don't think there is any subtlety here or that they are waiting for week 3. Just not strong enough. Tried a few tactics, but unable to realize benefits.

 

[johnymax]

I am a fan because I'm following him since his first year at Adria Mobil. He has always been an aggressive and attacking rider in the past but I don't like the way he has been riding recently. Today especially I don't get what he was trying to do.

I have a theory. When everybody thinks he will fade in the third week he is probably being confident he can be the strongest even on Col de la Loze. Thats why the most important thing for him is to stay healthy, don't crash, preserve energy and don't lose time. He has a lot of things going for him. He has a strong team, he has the final ITT and he has the strongest sprint among climbers so he can gain boni seconds. I can understand the game they are playing, but it's a dangerous game. I wonder how much of it is his saying or are more or less his DS decisions.

Also in his interview for Slovenian Tv he said he is happy how it went regarding not taking the yellow jersey. I think he really doesn't like the extra time the leader has to spend to be available to the media after and before the stage. So he is happy to take the jersey as late as possible but that's another dangerous game he is playing.

When asked why he didn' respond to Pogačar the second time he said he decided to not respond to every attack and Pogačar was the rider he was the most happy to let go.

 

[Carols]

Roglic or the DS has a lot of explaining to do for this abomination. What was he doing?

I just finished watching the stage. What 'abomination' did I miss? Despite zero teammates left the man rode strong, covered the attacks that counted, descended well and finished with all the other contenders. He's in 2nd place by 3 seconds and basically can take yellow whenever he wants. But they obviously don't want it yet.

The only thing I heard today that was distressing is his arm 'just isn't healing the way it should have'.

 

[Ripper]

Yes, it is a tactical game over 3 weeks. You cannot respond to everything without paying a price. This said, end of GT time trials can frequently not work out as expected. He is great at TTs, but if he could take time and not bury himself, he would.

 

[Red Rick]

I do think the Marie Blanque smells more like a Roglic climb. Attack with Pogacar, hold hands to finish probably

 

[Gargamel35]

Let's talk a bit about Roglič here. This is a guy that almost got killed while ski jumping and discovered he likes the bike when he was in rehabilitation. This is also a guy that rode 2000 km in a year on a bike and called director of Adria Mobil bike race team that he did 2k this year and would to turn pro. Every director would laugh and put down the phone but this guy gave him a chance to train. Remember Roglič was 22 or 23 at the time. Later another team gave him a huge chance (Jumbo Visma) and the rest is history. Personaly, he hates to be on the spotlight. He doesn't like press, he doesn't like to be swarmed by everybody all the time. He loves to fly under the radar and just...win. One of the reasons he doesn't really want yellow jersey too soon.
And he's a guy that is VERY gratitude to JV for having him and he'll to EVERYTHING they want him do to the T. If they would tell him to burn the hill down today, he would if he could. But they don't want that just now. They are afraid to spend too much the first week (Giro 2019), they don't want him in the spotlight too much, because he looses focus and energy.

This TdF is only the third GT that JV is going for the win. Giro 2019 was the first, then Vuelta 2019 and not TdF 2020. Every time with Roglič. On Giro he came in too hot, had bunch of horrible problems and sickness and still managed 3rd place. In Vuelta they had a lot more control, better team, better Roglič in all three weeks and a win at the end. TdF 2020 is only third GT they are trying to win. It's a long one and most important GT of them all. So they don't want to go all in just now. Today many of their doms got dropped quick. They are not as strong as everybody thought, so they need to be careful. And they are. They control as much as possible and will attack when needed. I think the best is yet to come.

 

[DNP-Old]

I just finished watching the stage. What 'abomination' did I miss? Despite zero teammates left the man rode strong, covered the attacks that counted, descended well and finished with all the other contenders. He's in 2nd place by 3 seconds and basically can take yellow whenever he wants. But they obviously don't want it yet.

The only thing I heard today that was distressing is his arm 'just isn't healing the way it should have'.

While we do not know the mastermind behind Jumbo's tactical decisions today (be it Roglic, be it Niermann), Jumbo did everything wrong. Dumoulin, while not at his best, decided to start pulling because he is a team player. Okay, that's something I can get behind: make the race hard for Roglic so he can show he is the best. However, if you want to make the race hard, it would be optimal for Roglic to utilise the toughness of the race by attacking. He did not do that. Why not? Perhaps Jumbo didn't want to have yellow this early in the race. Now that sounds like a logical explanation. However, if that was the basis of the plan, then why let Dumoulin pull and blow himself up?


To summarise, here's what Jumbo accomplished today: gained time on zero contenders, lost time to Pogacar (which they worked so hard for yesterday), lost their oh so valuable second option in GC. Someone is in the wrong here. It could be Roglic for doing nothing, it could be the DS for either making Dumoulin work or allowing Dumoulin to work. Any competent DS would immediately shout in his ear to get off the front. No logic was applied today, to say the least. Jumbo is a silly crash of Roglic away, which, by the way, is always a realistic scenario, to lose the entire race.

 

[Carols]

While we do not know the mastermind behind Jumbo's tactical decisions today (be it Roglic, be it Niermann), Jumbo did everything wrong. Dumoulin, while not at his best, decided to start pulling because he is a team player. Okay, that's something I can get behind: make the race hard for Roglic so he can show he is the best. However, if you want to make the race hard, it would be optimal for Roglic to utilise the toughness of the race by attacking. He did not do that. Why not? Perhaps Jumbo didn't want to have yellow this early in the race. Now that sounds like a logical explanation. However, if that was the basis of the plan, then why let Dumoulin pull and blow himself up.


To summarise, here's what Jumbo accomplished today: gained time on zero contenders, lost time to Pogacar (which they worked so hard for yesterday), lost their oh so valuable second option in GC. Someone is in the wrong here. It could be Roglic for doing nothing, it could be the DS for either making Dumoulin work or allowing Dumoulin to work.

Certainly Not an Abomination except in Your Expectations and Opinion. So Good-Bye!

 

[DNP-Old]

Certainly Not an Abomation except in Your Expectations and Opinion. So Good-Bye!

So, after me pinpointing and, if I may say so myself, accurately questioning each decision made by Jumbo, albeit decision(s) from Roglic himself or the DS, this is your response. No counter argument, no explanations, no look into other scenarios. Just silliness. That's cool and all, but then please stop responding to me. Thank you.

 

[DNP-Old]

Fear no more, the explanation has arrived. Niermann, the mastermind himself, is here to save us all.

Roglič had als plan meegekregen om alleen aanvallen van de grootste concurrenten te pareren. “Toen Pogačar aanviel, heeft Primož niet op die aanval gereageerd. Hij zat nog goed bij de andere favorieten. Het is natuurlijk jammer dat hij veertig seconden verliest, maar het is wat het is.”

Roughly meaning that Roglic' plan (/order) was to only follow attacks and not do much else. It's unfortunate that he lost 45 seconds, but it is what it is. Perhaps this should now be moved to another thread, since it was Niermann's exceptional IQ to make this plan, apparently, rather than Roglic' own decision. Anyway, solid reasoning. So why exactly did Dumoulin have to work? Why was Dumoulin allowed to work? If you only want to follow wheels, it doesn't make much sense to give up a second option with everything to play for, is it now. More importantly, why did Roglic let Pogacar, you know, the kid who has beaten him more than once and actually does have an answer to Roglic' explosiveness, ride? But hey, Dumoulin is an exceptional team player at least.

 

[DNP-Old]

By the way, I'd advise you all to read this analysis done by Bruyneel after todays stage: https://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/opinie-johan-bruyneel-vraagtekens-over-primoz-roglic/. It's in Dutch, but it's certainly recommended to use a translator of some kind.

 

[johnymax]

I've said more than once that I don't trust Jumbo Vismas decision making from the team car and I am still of the same opinion.

 

[Brullnux]

I think Jumbo are over-complicating it. If you have the opportunity to take time, you do. Today they had this chance. Controlling the race as yellow jersey makes it a bit harder true, but theyve been the main controllers anyway, and there's quite a few transitional stages in which they won't have to do much at all really before stage 15 where (if all goes well) he'll likely take the Jersey anyway. Now Roglic has given up 40s to Pogacar (who he is happy to give time to? I get he won't have won the giro last year anyway, but did he get no lessons fron that?) and not taken any out of Bernal, who looked a lot worse than him.

 

[Carols]

I've said more than once that I don't trust Jumbo Vismas decision making from the team car and I am still of the same opinion.

Very difficult to disagree with that, so I won't .

 

[Gargamel35]

Fear no more, the explanation has arrived. Niermann, the mastermind himself, is here to save us all.



Roughly meaning that Roglic' plan (/order) was to only follow attacks and not do much else. It's unfortunate that he lost 45 seconds, but it is what it is. Perhaps this should now be moved to another thread, since it was Niermann's exceptional IQ to make this plan, apparently, rather than Roglic' own decision. Anyway, solid reasoning. So why exactly did Dumoulin have to work? Why was Dumoulin allowed to work? If you only want to follow wheels, it doesn't make much sense to give up a second option with everything to play for, is it now. More importantly, why did Roglic let Pogacar, you know, the kid who has beaten him more than once and actually does have an answer to Roglic' explosiveness, ride? But hey, Dumoulin is an exceptional team player at least.

Like i said before. Roglič is a guy every bike team director loves. He will do everything they ask him to do. They told him to follow wheels today and he did. They told him not to spend too much energy and he didn't follot Pogačar for this reason. That's it. As of Tom D., they maybe tried his power and how good he is and it's clear he's not on top level.

 

[bajbar]

So, Roglič today just surfed wheels. I hoped that he would cooporate with Pogačar when he first attacked, but in the end Nairo also got up to them and then no one wanted to work. I think we have seen who the strongest three riders are uphill. And from that moment onward he only covered Quintana. He did not cover Pogi when he went for the second time (time buffer and another Slovenian), he did not cover Landa, Porte or Martin. But when Nairo jumped he was straight on his wheel without a single problem.

So, why didn't Rogla go for time gains. One is team tactics. They apparently really don't want yellow. I guess the additional interwiews, responsibility so control the race and the extra attention are not worth it for the team (though I would dearly love Rogla in yellow). I guess they will want yellow on a stage where they can seal the GC, so that the rest will simply only race for second.

And if you check the stages and races where Primož wins, they have a very simillar pattern. A full on sub 5 min maximum effort. Be it a sprint, a last km attack or something simmilar. He wants to be sure he won't blow up and wants to make sure he can sustain that max effort until the end. A lot of riders attack, get a gap but then they get cught because they cannot sustain it and then it all repeats. When he really attacks he never looks back, because he knows he has the numbers to go to the line and he knows no one will pass him.

In the end the team tactic was a bit weird. And I do not expect much time gains tomorrow either. Stage 13 finish is where things might be suited to the "full last kilometer attack" though.

 

[Gargamel35]

So, Roglič today just surfed wheels. I hoped that he would cooporate with Pogačar when he first attacked, but in the end Nairo also got up to them and then no one wanted to work. I think we have seen who the strongest three riders are uphill. And from that moment onward he only covered Quintana. He did not cover Pogi when he went for the second time (time buffer and another Slovenian), he did not cover Landa, Porte or Martin. But when Nairo jumped he was straight on his wheel without a single problem.

So, why didn't Rogla go for time gains. One is team tactics. They apparently really don't want yellow. I guess the additional interwiews, responsibility so control the race and the extra attention are not worth it for the team (though I would dearly love Rogla in yellow). I guess they will want yellow on a stage where they can seal the GC, so that the rest will simply only race for second.

And if you check the stages and races where Primož wins, they have a very simillar pattern. A full on sub 5 min maximum effort. Be it a sprint, a last km attack or something simmilar. He wants to be sure he won't blow up and wants to make sure he can sustain that max effort until the end. A lot of riders attack, get a gap but then they get cught because they cannot sustain it and then it all repeats. When he really attacks he never looks back, because he knows he has the numbers to go to the line and he knows no one will pass him.

In the end the team tactic was a bit weird. And I do not expect much time gains tomorrow either. Stage 13 finish is where things might be suited to the "full last kilometer attack" though.

Spot on. They don't want yellow, Roglič doesn't want yellow just now. Plan was to follow wheels today, when Pogačar went on and Quintana jumped, the plan was to drop Quintana, but he couldn't do it so they rode together.

Roglič real advantage against others are short power bursts (5 minutes) so i think they'll try that if possible to gain time, conserve energy and go for it at TT.

 

[johnymax]

Well tomorrow the last climb should suit him perfectly I think. On top of that there is 8s bonus at the top of the climb plus 10s on the finish line. The next day is the first rest day so I don't see many reasons for Jumbo not to setup Rogla for the attack.

 

[Gargamel35]

Well tomorrow the last climb should suit him perfectly I think. On top of that there is 8s bonus at the top of the climb plus 10s on the finish line. The next day is the first rest day so I don't see many reasons for Jumbo not to setup Rogla for the attack.

I wouldn't be so sure...if they didn't want yellow today, they won't want it tomorrow. I think he'll try to cover the attacks only.

 

[IndianCyclist]

This TdF is only the third GT that JV is going for the win. Giro 2019 was the first, then Vuelta 2019 and not TdF 2020. Every time with Roglič.

JV is the old Rabobank team. They have plenty of GT winning experience with Menchov, and GC leading exp with Rassmussen and SK. Roglic is the newcomer but the team is pretty experienced and old. However experience does not always lead to perfectness
As regards to their strategy, it is one of those things that if it works , it will considered wise and stupid if it does not. Only time will tell.

 

[Gargamel35]

JV is the old Rabobank team. They have plenty of GT winning experience with Menchov, and GC leading exp with Rassmussen and SK. Roglic is the newcomer but the team is pretty experienced and old. However experience does not always lead to perfectness
As regards to their strategy, it is one of those things that if it works , it will considered wise and stupid if it does not. Only time will tell.

History of this team goes way back. But it has nothing to do with this team today. It's a new team with new people.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Jumbo clusterfuck. This was some Lotto Soudal level tactical masterclass.

 

[Koronin]

Tomorrow like today, could be a very good day for a break to make it to finish and take all the bonus seconds. Also it's a long flat after the decent.

 

[Carols]

Taken from a post on Stage 8 thread:
Roglič confirmed for Slovenian tv that he would be able to cover Pogačar but didn't, because team doesn't want yellow Jersey in the first week of racing.

So reset your expectations for tomorrow. Team management doesn't want the jersey now!