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johnymax

johnymax

May 8, 2014
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Logic-is-your-friend said:
Talk about serving an agenda. I have no issues with Roglic, i even quite like the guy. I do have issues with insane statements as if winning the mighty UAE or Romandie are reason to put him above the winner of the TDF (who won 2 other far more prestigious races than UAE or TDR). Or claiming the opposition in the Vuelta was on par with that of Giro (where he came up short) or TDF. This is simply becoming satirical at this point.
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I might actually agree with you in saying Bernal's GC achievemnts this season beat those of Roglič. Also I don't think Roglič is the best rider in the World or anything beacuse he's leading the UCI ranking, PCS ranking or whatever (I have Alaphilippe as clearly the best cyclist in the World this season). But I have a problem with people saying that the Vuelta field was that much weaker than either Giro or Tour. And I'm talking only abouy GC riders, leaving aside sprinters, classic riders and other domestics. It was weaker, but not by as much as some of you want to suggest.

And you can't prove it. Saying "Look at who was second, a 39 yo" doesn't prove nothing. We all know it's not a normal 39yo we are talking about here.
 
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hammerthaim

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Logic-is-your-friend said:
Talk about serving an agenda. I have no issues with Roglic, i even quite like the guy. I do have issues with insane statements as if winning the mighty UAE or Romandie are reason to put him above the winner of the TDF (who won 2 other far more prestigious races than UAE or TDR). Or claiming the opposition in the Vuelta was on par with that of Giro (where he came up short) or TDF. This is simply becoming satirical at this point.
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@johnnymax
The climbs are shorter and the wattages were higher. Do you have a nice calculator on hand to say how good or bad they were, compared to the Tour? Or can we agree that the numbers were insane w/kg wise for the duration of effort.

@liyf
Can you understand that the circumstances at the Giro were against Roglic? He was the strongest at the Giro that is a given. He had misfortunes that's a given.

It's not an insane statement if a number of people are echoing a similar sentiment thanks.
 
Eddy Evenepoel

Eddy Evenepoel

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Bernal deserves the title as the best stage racer this season as he won TdF, TdS and P-N, but Roglic is not far behind.

People saying the Vuelta field was weak is ignorant and probably think that Valverdes performances in the Tour is equal to his performance level in the Vuelta. And they probably don’t give Pogacar the credit he deserves.
I’m not a big fan of Roglic, but it’s obvious that he is a superb bike racer and it’s not a surprise if he wins the tour next year.
 
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Red Rick

Red Rick

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18-Valve. (pithy) said:
Pretty sure Carapaz was the best overall, not just in terms of results. Yeah, he got some "free" minutes, but was in control the whole 3rd week. Could have taken time on Roglic and Nibali in other mountain stages (such as the last one, in which both of them were suffering like a dog)
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Nibali finished s.t. as Carapaz on that stage.

I don't buy this narrative that Carapaz could drop Nibali whenever he wanted. He got probably 2'50 for free and 12s after that.
 
Logic-is-your-friend

Logic-is-your-friend

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hammerthaim said:
@liyf
Can you understand that the circumstances at the Giro were against Roglic? He was the strongest at the Giro that is a given. He had misfortunes that's a given.

It's not an insane statement if a number of people are echoing a similar sentiment thanks.
Click to expand...

Just because numerous people echo the same BS doesn't mean it rings true.

On one hand you are arguing he won everything he entered (except the Giro) as if that is supposed to be a factor, but on the other hand, you want to make it seem as he was the best in the Giro as well (which he simply was NOT) and suddenly placing is of less importance than your sentiment of how good he was. Ever think about all those other races that he won? Nobody gave a flying fck about UAE. Nobody gave a flying fck about Romandie. But still this "he won everything he entered (except for his one goal of the season)" is supposed to mean something. Seriously. Bernal won TDF, PN and TDS. Maybe you should go and talk to actual pro cyclists about which they would prefer. Vuelta, TA, TDR, UAE and third in Giro, or the TDF, TDS and PN. I'll give you a hint: other than some crazy Spanish rider, none will prefer the first combo. It's simply not even close. Regardless of what fanboys in this topic may believe.
 
Rollthedice

Rollthedice

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Red Rick said:
Nibali finished s.t. as Carapaz on that stage.

I don't buy this narrative that Carapaz could drop Nibali whenever he wanted. He got probably 2'50 for free and 12s after that.
Click to expand...

There is no way Carapaz wins the Giro if Nibali understands at the right moment that he is the main rival and not Roglic. Nibali put 2 minutes into Carapaz in the ITTs, with the shape he had, he can't lose that time on the climbs. As for Roglic, he is a very good GT rider but let's stop fantasizing he could have won the Giro, he smashed the first 2 ITTs then followed wheels on the mountains for as long as he could. As it turned out he couldn't follow two guys who finished in front of him.
 
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Blanco

Blanco

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johnymax said:
I might actually agree with you in saying Bernal's GC achievemnts this season beat those of Roglič. Also I don't think Roglič is the best rider in the World or anything beacuse he's leading the UCI ranking, PCS ranking or whatever (I have Alaphilippe as clearly the best cyclist in the World this season). But I have a problem with people saying that the Vuelta field was that much weaker than either Giro or Tour. And I'm talking only abouy GC riders, leaving aside sprinters, classic riders and other domestics. It was weaker, but not by as much as some of you want to suggest.

And you can't prove it. Saying "Look at who was second, a 39 yo" doesn't prove nothing. We all know it's not a normal 39yo we are talking about here.
Click to expand...
No, Bernal's achievements doesn't beat those of Roglic,
and yes, Roglic is the best rider in the World, or at least equal with Alaphilippe.
 
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Red Rick

Red Rick

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Rollthedice said:
There is no way Carapaz wins the Giro if Nibali understands at the right moment that he is the main rival and not Roglic. Nibali put 2 minutes into Carapaz in the ITTs, with the shape he had, he can't lose that time on the climbs. As for Roglic, he is a very good GT rider but let's stop fantasizing he could have won the Giro, he smashed the first 2 ITTs then followed wheels on the mountains for as long as he could. As it turned out he couldn't follow two guys who finished in front of him.
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Pretty much.

Roglic' chance of winning the Giro was not riding Romandie and coming super hot. To be perfectly honest I think he was already sub 100% when he won the stage 9 ITT.

Nibali in pink would've made for a very interesting last mountain stage although I think neither Nibali's nor Carapaz' mom would fancy watching that Manghen descent
 
Blanco

Blanco

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Logic-is-your-friend said:
Just because numerous people echo the same BS doesn't mean it rings true.

On one hand you are arguing he won everything he entered (except the Giro) as if that is supposed to be a factor, but on the other hand, you want to make it seem as he was the best in the Giro as well (which he simply was NOT) and suddenly placing is of less importance than your sentiment of how good he was. Ever think about all those other races that he won? Nobody gave a flying fck about UAE. Nobody gave a flying fck about Romandie. But still this "he won everything he entered (except for his one goal of the season)" is supposed to mean something. Seriously. Bernal won TDF, PN and TDS. Maybe you should go and talk to actual pro cyclists about which they would prefer. Vuelta, TA, TDR, UAE and third in Giro, or the TDF, TDS and PN. I'll give you a hint: other than some crazy Spanish rider, none will prefer the first combo. It's simply not even close. Regardless of what fanboys in this topic may believe.
Click to expand...
So did you talk to actual pro cyclists?
 
Blanco

Blanco

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Logic-is-your-friend said:
A weak field. Yes, weak competition, both in numbers and quality.
Statement: Roglic is not the best GC rider of 2019. Boom. Now what?
Let me visualize in a way that makes it more clear:

TDF + TDS + PN >>>>>>>>>>>> Vuelta + UAE + TDR + TA

By a landslide.
Click to expand...
Not at all.
Add to that Giro 3rd and 11 wins for Roglic vs 4 Bernal's, and you'll get the picture who's better this season.
 
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Logic-is-your-friend

Logic-is-your-friend

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Blanco said:
Not at all.
Add to that Giro 3rd and 11 wins for Roglic vs 4 Bernal's, and you'll get the picture who's better this season.
Click to expand...
We were talking about GC achievements, not stagewins. And yes, by a landslide. TDF beats Vuelta, TDS+PN beats UAE+TDR+TA.

Blanco said:
So did you talk to actual pro cyclists?
Click to expand...
No need. Only for those who wish to believe that all of a sudden Vuelta beats TDF for instance.
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

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Logic-is-your-friend said:
Sorry, must have taken a wrong turn somewhere. Appears i got stuck in some alternative dimension. I'm out. This discussion is getting a bit too surreal for my taste.
Click to expand...
You do realise that stating opinions as facts, supporting them with hyperboles and then calling different opinions 'surreal' doesn't really support your argument right?

Especially considering it's about 'which one is better' and not 'which one is more accomplished'
 
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Bushman

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The opposition Bernal faced in Tour de Suisse was almost embarrassing for a WT race. 2nd, 3rd and 4rth overall was fricking Dennis, Konrad and Benoot. Not exactly top tier competition. Likewise in PN, the only real contenders were Yates, who threw the race away on a flat stage, and Quintana who cant tt to save his life.

Roglic actually beat quality riders at Tirreno-Adriatico.
 
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hammerthaim

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Logic-is-your-friend said:
Just because numerous people echo the same BS doesn't mean it rings true.

On one hand you are arguing he won everything he entered (except the Giro) as if that is supposed to be a factor, but on the other hand, you want to make it seem as he was the best in the Giro as well (which he simply was NOT) and suddenly placing is of less importance than your sentiment of how good he was. Ever think about all those other races that he won? Nobody gave a flying fck about UAE. Nobody gave a flying fck about Romandie. But still this "he won everything he entered (except for his one goal of the season)" is supposed to mean something. Seriously. Bernal won TDF, PN and TDS. Maybe you should go and talk to actual pro cyclists about which they would prefer. Vuelta, TA, TDR, UAE and third in Giro, or the TDF, TDS and PN. I'll give you a hint: other than some crazy Spanish rider, none will prefer the first combo. It's simply not even close. Regardless of what fanboys in this topic may believe.
Click to expand...
Chill
 
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dastott

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FWIW, I would put their respective seasons basically equal. The TdF is the biggest race but Roglic has won more and beaten better riders in the 1 week stage races. Regardless, both have been very impressive and both impress because they race every race they enter to win. Not many GC men do that.
 
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Oldermanish

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dastott said:
FWIW, I would put their respective seasons basically equal. The TdF is the biggest race but Roglic has won more and beaten better riders in the 1 week stage races. Regardless, both have been very impressive and both impress because they race every race they enter to win. Not many GC men do that.
Click to expand...
Which fuels the debate about "quality" of wins. The current era has many GC players treating the runup and one week races like training camps. Hard to tell who is committed some times and where their season form fits into the big scheme of things.
 
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