Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[del1962]

He was THE ONLY ONE that was attacking in stage 19 and finally managed to get away on the descent, also he wasnt even a leader coming in to 18 tour

Bernal really, Bernal ??? he didnt beat roglic once, I am done here

They have hardly raced against each other but significantly Bernal beat Roglic in Romadie uphill ITT last year, though Roglic beat Bernal for overall by 8 seconds, Bernal finished ahead in all except one, one day races they both competed in, however Roglic finished ahead of Bernal working as a domestique in TDF in 2018 and a very young Bernal in 2017 T-A

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I didn't say he was the best.

I simply said he belonged on the list.

Fair enough. Different starting points I guess. I was starting with the list of people who you could credibly argue as the best in the world. And I don’t think he makes that list. Due to his craftiness and experience, I would expect him to beat several of the folks on this list in a GT.

 

[Red Rick]

If the list is strictly about possibly best in the world, especially in a Tour I'd say

• Froome
• Dumoulin
• Pogacar
• Roglic
• Bernal

are the only real candidates at this point.

 

[Rollthedice]

I’m not sure how you can make a credible argument that Nibali is the best GT rider right now. He hadn’t been the best climber or TTrr in a recent GT, not had he won since Crushweak blundered in 2016.

You could credibly point to any of the others, as they have either actually won a GT in the last two seasons or, in the case of Dumoulin, got 2/2 in Giro/Tour, which is pretty amazing.

Specifically, Froome won 4 straight GTs and still got 3rd in the fifth GT, the Tour. It would be odd to exclude him unless you are assuming vastly different weighted probability performance.

I haven't seen anywhere somebody claiming Nibali is the best GT rider right now. More often than not he was never the best TTer or the best climber yet he amassed 11 podiums including two consecutive runner-up places, without the brokeback mountain incident I'd say three. To exclude him from a list with potential best GT riders right now is a mistake.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I haven't seen anywhere somebody claiming Nibali is the best GT rider right now. More often than not he was never the best TTer or the best climber yet he amassed 11 podiums including two consecutive runner-up places, without the brokeback mountain incident I'd say three. To exclude him from a list with potential best GT riders right now is a mistake.

I guess I took this in a different direction. Might have read too carelessly above. I was talking about the best in the world, not potential GT winners. Of course Nibali is a potential GT winner.

 

[topt]

They have hardly raced against each other but significantly Bernal beat Roglic in Romadie uphill ITT last year, though Roglic beat Bernal for overall by 8 seconds, Bernal finished ahead in all except one, one day races they both competed in, however Roglic finished ahead of Bernal working as a domestique in TDF in 2018 and a very young Bernal in 2017 T-A

you mention roglic beat Bernal by 8 sec but fail to mention how much did bernal gain in that ITT, was Roglic team leader for jumbo in 18 tour ?
https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/primoz-roglic/head-to-head/egan-bernal

 

[Escarabajo]

If the list is strictly about possibly best in the world, especially in a Tour I'd say

• Froome
• Dumoulin
• Pogacar
• Roglic
• Bernal

are the only real candidates at this point.

I think you are getting carried away with one of them.

 

[Breezy1985]

If the list is strictly about possibly best in the world, especially in a Tour I'd say

• Froome
• Dumoulin
• Pogacar
• Roglic
• Bernal

are the only real candidates at this point.

Mas looked just as impressive as Pogacar did 12 months ago

 

[Red Rick]

Mas looked just as impressive as Pogacar did 12 months ago

Just.....

No

 

[Koronin]

I think next season we'll have a better idea about both Mas and Soler with Movistar handing both of them a lot more responsiblity and leadership opportunities within that team.

 

[Leinster]

If the list is strictly about possibly best in the world, especially in a Tour I'd say

• Froome
• Dumoulin
• Pogacar
• Roglic
• Bernal

are the only real candidates at this point.

As impressive as Pogacar was in the Vuelta, until he actually wins a Grand Tour you really can’t put him in a list like this and leave out this year’s Giro winner, or this year’s TdF runner-up (who also won it last year) or this year’s Giro runner up.

 

[Red Rick]

As impressive as Pogacar was in the Vuelta, until he actually wins a Grand Tour you really can’t put him in a list like this and leave out this year’s Giro winner, or this year’s TdF runner-up (who also won it last year) or this year’s Giro runner up.

If we're talking about the 2020 Tour, I definitely can. Carapaz has nothing on Bernal anyway and at this point I think he's getting really really overrated.

 

[Blanco]

If we're talking about the 2020 Tour, I definitely can. Carapaz has nothing on Bernal anyway and at this point I think he's getting really really overrated.

Me too! I don't think he will win Grand Tour ever again.

 

[IndianCyclist]

I will also add Simon Yates to the mix since we are also looking at injury returns of Froome and Dumoulin. Hes had a bad year but if on form he has unbeatable acceleration

 

[Red Rick]

I will also add Simon Yates to the mix since we are also looking at injury returns of Froome and Dumoulin. Hes had a bad year but if on form he has unbeatable acceleration

Yates is a bit of a dark horse for me at this point

 

[hayneplane]

Mas looked just as impressive as Pogacar did 12 months ago

Not remotely in the same league. I can’t remember any times when Mas took the race by the scruff of the neck and dished out punishment to the entire field.

Pogacar was younger by over a year, had even less team support than Mas and won 3 stages.

 

[hayneplane]

Yates is a bit of a dark horse for me at this point

Yates is a terrific rider and the Simon version is a vastly more entertaining rider than the Adam version.

Not sure Simon Yates currently has the consistency to win a Tour but I would be surprised if he didn’t pick up at least one Giro or Vuelta in the next 5 years if he targets them.

 

[Breezy1985]

Not remotely in the same league. I can’t remember any times when Mas took the race by the scruff of the neck and dished out punishment to the entire field.

Pogacar was younger by over a year, had even less team support than Mas and won 3 stages.

He was 2nd on GC and 1st YC and a lot of people last year talking about Mas being a future GC winner the same way with Pogacar now. What I meant by my post was that you can't judge too quickly and have Pogacar on a list alone with actual GC winners

 

[Red Rick]

2nd vs 1st year as pro rider. That is a big difference.

 

[CyclistAbi]

And that´s why it doesn´t make sense to discuss with fanboys.

I doubt it only comes down to fanboys, that is some people not agreeing with you. There are some metrics and rankings available. Such as UCI rankings, Roglič currently at the top individuals ranking and PCS rankings, Roglič currently at top of climbers rankings.

Anyway, currently Roglič likely is the best overall rider in the world. Giro 2019 likely made him that. Before Giro 2019 Roglič didn't put too much emphasize on the importance of the team support, GT races. Giro 2019 experience is what made him embrace it on GT races and to go from being an individual to a team rider. On previous GT races Roglič more or less tested his abilities, as an individual rider. Like that epic stage on TDF, going against Froome directly, to test if he can cope with the best on hardest stage terrains, climbing. He managed to do that. In addition, what Roglič likely realized is, he doesn't need to do that all that much, to win a GT race. Therefore, when it comes to Roglič, he doesn't necessarily need to put all the emphasize on climbing, to win a GT race. This is what his competition will likely have a hard time to cope with in the following years.

 

[Red Rick]

I think going strongly either way with Bernal vs Roglic makes no sense anyway.

 

[skippo12]

I doubt it only comes down to fanboys, that is some people not agreeing with you. There are some metrics and rankings available. Such as UCI rankings, Roglič currently at the top individuals ranking and PCS rankings, Roglič currently at top of climbers rankings.

Anyway, currently Roglič likely is the best overall rider in the world. Giro 2019 likely made him that. Before Giro 2019 Roglič didn't put too much emphasize on the importance of the team support, GT races. Giro 2019 experience is what made him embrace it on GT races and to go from being an individual to a team rider. On previous GT races Roglič more or less tested his abilities, as an individual rider. Like that epic stage on TDF, going against Froome directly, to test if he can cope with the best on hardest stage terrains, climbing. He managed to do that. In addition, what Roglič likely realized is, he doesn't need to do that all that much, to win a GT race. Therefore, when it comes to Roglič, he doesn't necessarily need to put all the emphasize on climbing, to win a GT race. This is what his competition will likely have a hard time to cope with in the following years.

And that is something I can at least somewhat agree with. As I said. I would favor Roglic in any one-week stage race he enters. He also is a very good but in my opinion not the best GT rider.
Overall that obviously makes him one of the best if not the best rider right now.
The things I mentioned in my posts are facts. Don´t really know how anyone can argue against actual stage and GC results.
We can argue all we want about team support but as long as the leader isn´t good enough to at least follow his opponents it doesn´t matter. Jumbo obviously struggled in the Giro and lost some crucial riders due to injuries. That did not happen in the Vuelta and Roglic probably had the 2nd best team behind Movistar.

Roglics Tour 2018 was good but in the Alps he wasn´t able to follow the best. That is were he lost most of his time. He obviously also cracked in the final TT.
Roglics Giro was good as well but in the mountains he was clearly worse than Landa, Nibali and Carapaz.
Roglics Vuelta was great and he was dominant. As you mentioned. He did not need to attack in the mountains (did anyway on some stages) because of his advantage in the TT.

That still doesn´t change my overall point. You don´t need to be the best GC-rider to win GTs as long as you avoid the best opponents. As of now Roglic hasn´t beaten Nibali, Froome, Thomas or TD in a GT. He beat a 39 year old Valverde and a 20 year old Pogacar.
I am still doubting his climbing ability on the hardest Giro/Tour stages. The Vuelta climbs are different and as I already mentioned I think they suit him a lot better. Combine this doubt with the knowledge that against Froome, TD or Thomas he only has a marginal (if any) advantage in the TTs and I am hesitant to crown him as the best GC rider.

What really intrigues me about Roglic is his one day race potenial. For a GC rider/climber he has a solid sprint and it seems like he is at his best on shorter climbs. Is he a contender for Liege or Lombardia or does he lack the stamina? Is he even interested in those races?

 

[johnymax]

No mixed TTT for Rogla. He isn't ready after Vuelta crash. Aims for ITT on Wednesday.

 

[RedheadDane]

Here's a rather silly thought about the whole comparing trophies thing between him and Nibali:
There is one thing Roglic has that Nibali doesn't have; a world championship! Sure, it's the wrong sport, but still...

 

[CyclistAbi]

We can argue all we want about team support but as long as the leader isn´t good enough to at least follow his opponents it doesn´t matter. Jumbo obviously struggled in the Giro and lost some crucial riders due to injuries. That did not happen in the Vuelta and Roglic probably had the 2nd best team behind Movistar.

Astana was good to. TJV likely was the second or the third team on Vuelta 2019, but what made the difference is, they have put a lot of heart in it. Likely due to Roglič for the first time accepting the full team support and the team having full confidence in Roglič.

That still doesn´t change my overall point. You don´t need to be the best GC-rider to win GTs as long as you avoid the best opponents. As of now Roglic hasn´t beaten Nibali, Froome, Thomas or TD in a GT. He beat a 39 year old Valverde and a 20 year old Pogacar.

AFAIK Giro 2019 was the first attempt Roglič actually went after GC on a GT race. Before that he was learning and testing things out, more on an individual level. Roglič didn't win Giro 2019, that much is true, but Giro 2019 in my opinion made Roglič a genuine GT rider. And as 2019 was the year Roglič officially went after his first GT, he did managed to reach that goal in the end.

I am still doubting his climbing ability on the hardest Giro/Tour stages. The Vuelta climbs are different and as I already mentioned I think they suit him a lot better. Combine this doubt with the knowledge that against Froome, TD or Thomas he only has a marginal (if any) advantage in the TTs and I am hesitant to crown him as the best GC rider.

Best to wait and see. As the discussion was about 2019, Roglič likely has achieved more in 2019, compared to Froome or Thomas.

Is he even interested in those races?

AFAIK Roglič still wants to win both TDF and Giro. If everything goes according to the plan, this two GT races will likely happen in 2020/2021. That is if we speculate a bit. Roglič will likely choose TDF 2020 and Dumoulin could go after TDF 2021. Roglič therefore likely going at Giro 2021. I am just not sure if Dumoulin should do Giro or Vuelta 2020. Likely Vuelta 2020 would be a better fit. Unless he fully heals his knee injury and has enough time to get in shape and decides to participate in TDF 2020. In that scenario Dumoulin likely could help out Roglič on some hard stages. Roglič could return the favor to Dumoulin, on TDF 2021, hopefully winning the Giro 2021 just before. An injury or being less prepared, that obviously could prevent from any of that to happen.

P.S. One more thing to learn from Vuelta 2019. TJV should dedicate a few days, practicing an echelon formation, for potential crosswind situations. And as a team, they need to reduce the crashing occurrences. Positioning themselves better in risky situations and better communication over the radio. Alarming the team more, about the risky situations ahead. Like for example somebody has punctured a pool, expect meteoric waters ahead ... Anyway, my focus has now shifted from GT racing to worlds man time trials!