Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Carols]

Here's a rather silly thought about the whole comparing trophies thing between him and Nibali:
There is one thing Roglic has that Nibali doesn't have; a world championship! Sure, it's the wrong sport, but still...

Well he does have a cycling TT Silver . Nibali has never won any Worlds medal
Still Primoz has quite a ways to go before his trophy case looks like Nibalis'.

 

[Gigs_98]

I doubt it only comes down to fanboys, that is some people not agreeing with you. There are some metrics and rankings available. Such as UCI rankings, Roglič currently at the top individuals ranking and PCS rankings, Roglič currently at top of climbers rankings.

Anyway, currently Roglič likely is the best overall rider in the world. Giro 2019 likely made him that. Before Giro 2019 Roglič didn't put too much emphasize on the importance of the team support, GT races. Giro 2019 experience is what made him embrace it on GT races and to go from being an individual to a team rider. On previous GT races Roglič more or less tested his abilities, as an individual rider. Like that epic stage on TDF, going against Froome directly, to test if he can cope with the best on hardest stage terrains, climbing. He managed to do that. In addition, what Roglič likely realized is, he doesn't need to do that all that much, to win a GT race. Therefore, when it comes to Roglič, he doesn't necessarily need to put all the emphasize on climbing, to win a GT race. This is what his competition will likely have a hard time to cope with in the following years.

This fanboy comment was a response to someone who thought it was outrageous to put bernal over roglic. UCI and PCS rankings (that honestly should probably never be brought up in such a conversation) won't change that it's anything but a hot take to claim this.
If anything I also think you are overrating roglic quite a bit. You don't become the best rider in the world by beating 39 y.o. grandpa valverde. I have the feeling that this whole debate isn't actually about how good roglic is but about how good people think he might be with no evidence of him actually being that good but people just taking it for granted that he will reach that level. Like, what has actually been Roglic's strongest climbing performance so far and then think about whether that makes you an easy pick for best cyclist in the world

 

[Red Rick]

This fanboy comment was a response to someone who thought it was outrageous to put bernal over roglic. UCI and PCS rankings (that honestly should probably never be brought up in such a conversation) won't change that it's anything but a hot take to claim this.
If anything I also think you are overrating roglic quite a bit. You don't become the best rider in the world by beating 39 y.o. grandpa valverde. I have the feeling that this whole debate isn't actually about how good roglic is but about how good people think he might be with no evidence of him actually being that good but people just taking it for granted that he will reach that level. Like, what has actually been Roglic's strongest climbing performance so far and then think about whether that makes you an easy pick for best cyclist in the world

My take is Roglic is a world class climber on slow stages with a single sky high W/kg climb. And he favours short to mid length climbs at that. His best climbing performances are probably Mende 2018 and the Romandie MTT that year too.

I think it's fair to say he falls off on harder mountain stages a little bit, but it's also hard to say how much. I think it's more accumulated fatigue that hurts him than a single huge mountain stage. When he gets really tired for example his ITT seems to fall off much more than Dumoulins for example.

 

[topt]

This fanboy comment was a response to someone who thought it was outrageous to put bernal over roglic. UCI and PCS rankings (that honestly should probably never be brought up in such a conversation) won't change that it's anything but a hot take to claim this.
If anything I also think you are overrating roglic quite a bit. You don't become the best rider in the world by beating 39 y.o. grandpa valverde. I have the feeling that this whole debate isn't actually about how good roglic is but about how good people think he might be with no evidence of him actually being that good but people just taking it for granted that he will reach that level. Like, what has actually been Roglic's strongest climbing performance so far and then think about whether that makes you an easy pick for best cyclist in the world

its a good thing we only evalute riders on GTs who is the best in the world, I think they should just cancel all the other races, they dont matter

 

[CyclistAbi]

This fanboy comment was a response to someone who thought it was outrageous to put bernal over roglic. UCI and PCS rankings (that honestly should probably never be brought up in such a conversation) won't change that it's anything but a hot take to claim this.

Yes, such metrics and ratings usually don't tell the whole story, but all in all and as for the 2019 season, it is hard to claim Roglič isn't rightfully at the top. He has results to back it up.

If anything I also think you are overrating roglic quite a bit. You don't become the best rider in the world by beating 39 y.o. grandpa valverde.

To me personally his Giro 2019 performance was epic. He didn't win overall, that much is true, but he went there solo, struggled with injuries and health issues and still secured a podium, La Vuelta is just the icing on the cake. At beginning of the season he was on another level, weekly races, and hopefully some good results ahead, on worlds individual time trials.

I have the feeling that this whole debate isn't actually about how good roglic is but about how good people think he might be with no evidence of him actually being that good but people just taking it for granted that he will reach that level. Like, what has actually been Roglic's strongest climbing performance so far and then think about whether that makes you an easy pick for best cyclist in the world

This is an interesting situation indeed. As i am not all that sure Roglič is after being the strongest climber. He is after being the best overall rider in the world. Traditionally strongest climber had a good chance of winning a GT race, but with Roglič in the game, you just can't be all that sure of that anymore. Currently Roglič might not be the strongest climber, if all competition is healthy and in good shape. What Roglič already is, he is strongly consistent, when climbing.

 

[CyclistAbi]

And when it comes to the strongest climber on a GT race. Usually such rider has a super domestique in his team. TJV now doesn't lack behind in this regard. Roglič, Dumoulin and Kruijswijk can all take that role and in addition Kuss is only getting better and better. Likely all of them will be prepared to do some of that in the future. As in the end it's not all that realistic, for a single rider, to win 3 GT races per season.

 

[Gigs_98]

To me personally his Giro 2019 performance was epic. He didn't win overall, that much is true, but he went there solo, struggled with injuries and health issues and still secured a podium, La Vuelta is just the icing on the cake. At beginning of the season he was on another level, weekly races, and hopefully some good results ahead, on worlds individual time trials.

I just really don't think his giro was all that epic. Sure, he didn't have a great team, but it's not like he lost the win due to that after being the strongest. He was simply not good enough and wouldn't have won with a sky train at his hands.

 

[Red Rick]

I just really don't think his giro was all that epic. Sure, he didn't have a great team, but it's not like he lost the win due to that after being the strongest. He was simply not good enough and wouldn't have won with a sky train at his hands.

Depends on which Sky Train but if we're talking 6 man Angliru train yeah I think he wins it. Especially with no Gavia.

 

[Rollthedice]

Depends on which Sky Train but if we're talking 6 man Angliru train yeah I think he wins it. Especially with no Gavia.

Come to think of, with an Angliru train, Carapaz never gets 1:20 at Lago Serru on Roglic and... Nibali. Vincenzo wins the Giro. No train no gain.

 

[johnymax]

With a Sky train Roglič easily wins the Giro.

 

[Rollthedice]

With a Sky train Roglič easily wins the Giro.

Not train can help a leader who can't follow on Mortirolo, Civiglio and Monte Avena the best climbers in the race and there's no train in individual time trials.

 

[johnymax]

Not train can help a leader who can't follow on Mortirolo, Civiglio and Monte Avena the best climbers in the race and there's no train in individual time trials.

Well I think it's almost meaningless to argue about this, because it all already happened and it's all hypothetical. But I see it this way:

1. If he had Bennett in form and Kuss in Vuelta form, he doesn't lose anything to Carapaz on Ceresole Reale. Him and Nibali were playing mind games and even lost 50s to Majka that day.
2. In the stage to Courmayeur Carapaz gained almost 2min. He was there at 15seconds for a long time and then the group behind almost stops pedalling. Imagine having two strong domestics there at the time. They bring him back and all finish s.t.
3. On Civiglio he lost like 10 seconds while not riding on his own bike after he had to chase alone the group of favourites after the mechanical. He crashed because he had to chase on the descent on his teammates bike and on the line he loses 40s. Now if he had had at least two strong teammates in the front group of 30 or so riders before Civiglio, one would have given him his bike, the other one would have helped him chase back. In that case Rogla would have been able to change his bike again to his spare bike from the car that arrived from the piss break. If all that happens he doesn't lose time to Carapaz and Nibali at all that day.
4. If all of the above happens he still has 1:44 on Nibali and 3:16 on Carapaz with no injuries from the crash going into the Mortirolo stage. Roglič loses 1:22 to both on that stage, just one day after the crash. Now I concede he probably would have lost time on that stage no matter what. But if he had had De Plus and Bennett/Kuss on the final part of Mortirolo and till the finish line the time lost would have been limited to about 30seconds.
5. Now he is 1:14 ahead of Nibali. Carapaz isn't even a threat anymore because he is still almost 3minutes behind. They were still all together at the start of the climb to Monte Avena. Roglič lost like a hundred meters on the descent just before the start of the final climb and had to chase alone all the way up to the finish with Sivakov giving him just one or two changes on the front of the chasing group. He lost 50 seconds that day with no domestics around him on the final two climbs. I think it's safe to say with two strong riders riding in front of him for the first half of the climb at least he would have limited his losses better.
6. Stage 21, 17km ITT in Verona left. Roglič is 20-40seconds ahead of Nibali. Game over. A completely depleted Roglič lost only 3seconds to Nibali. A normal Roglič, without injuries from the crash gains more time on Nibali in the ITT.

The above is hypothetical but a realistic scenario if Kuss is in his Vuelta form and if De Plus doesn't fall sick.

I hate to play the "What if" games because if something changes, then everything that happens later possibly changes too. So the whole post seems pretty stupid to me but I've spent too much time to write it down to not post it lol

Edit:
Also this is just with Kuss and De Plus/Bennett. We were talking about a Sky train which one time consisted of Thomas, Landa, Poels, prime Henao, prime Nieve, Kwiatkowski... They would bring Roglič home in Pink no doubt.

 

[hayneplane]

I just really don't think his giro was all that epic. Sure, he didn't have a great team, but it's not like he lost the win due to that after being the strongest. He was simply not good enough and wouldn't have won with a sky train at his hands.

His team were often disintegrated the very first time the road pointed upwards each day and very few stages where he had anyone with him during the final climb.

Give him the Sky 2012 tour Wiggins armchair ride and he would have won this years Giro with a comfortable margin in my view.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I also expected more from Rogic in the Giro, and i wasn't exactly impressed in the Vuelta either. The opposition was simply not of the same level as in the Giro or TDF.

Anyway, as for the WC, i read from some guy on Twitter that Slovenian media is saying that he hasn't recovered fully from the Vuelta and will not be a 100%. Which may be a problem facing a fully rested Dennis, Campenaerts or even Evenepoel.

 

[Red Rick]

Really wondering what was so weak about the Vuelta win?

 

[tobydawq]

Really wondering what was so weak about the Vuelta win?

I know, there is really a lot of rather mindless rambling going on in this thread.

The best GC rider in pro cycling right now.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I just really don't think his giro was all that epic.

Going in the last week, he was left alone, mere breathing was painful, due to chest injuries, stomach didn't want to participate anymore. All other teams still believed he is bluffing and all joined forces, to race against Roglič. That wattage power data, that was pure willpower. Roglič easily could have folded, nobody would blame him. He didn't do that, instead he went and secured the podium position.

Sure, he didn't have a great team, but it's not like he lost the win due to that after being the strongest. He was simply not good enough and wouldn't have won with a sky train at his hands.

Giro 2019 was the first GT race Roglič went after GC, by taking full responsibility. Before entering that race, he was still a maverick, a lot of learning and testing involved, on an individual basis. In a way he had to be a maverick, or he likely wouldn't have been there at all. Ski jumper. During that race, he matured in becoming a genuine GC contender on GT races. Pro cyclist. Having a "team train". Maybe he would have win, not sure if that would enable him to evolve, to become a genuine GC contender on GT races, like he is now. Here i worry a bit, when young riders, such as Pogačar, are pushed in such position a bit too soon. That doesn't always help them, on the long run.

In future GT races, yes Roglič will need a "team train". Without that, GT races like TDF are reserved for other teams, having that.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

The best GC rider in pro cycling right now.

Based on what exactly? UCI points? He rode the Giro and came up short, while the opposition in the Vuelta was subpar (for a GT). He was impressive in Romandie and similar one-week stageraces, but that doesn't warrant the monicker "best GC rider" imho. He may be one of the 5 best, but i'm not seeing anything that puts him ahead of Bernal, Nibali or Dumoulin, just to name a few, tbh.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Based on what exactly? UCI points? He rode the Giro and came up short, while the opposition in the Vuelta was subpar (for a GT). He was impressive in Romandie and similar one-week stageraces, but that doesn't warrant the monicker "best GC rider" imho. He may be one of the 5 best, but i'm not seeing anything that puts him ahead of Bernal, Nibali or Dumoulin, just to name a few, tbh.

No, based on the fact Roglic won every GC he participated in this year, bar the Giro.

That's the most impressive record out of anyone this year concerning classification riding.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

No, based on the fact Roglic won every GC he participated in this year, bar the Giro.

That's the most impressive record out of anyone this year concerning classification riding.

Oh, ok. He won every 1 week stagerace he entered (UAE, TA and Romandie, hardly the 3 hardest/most prestigious ones) and a weak fielded Vuelta. That makes him better than the guys that beat him in the one GT he was actually aiming for, or the guy that won the TDF (and TDS and PN).

Does not compute.

 

[hammerthaim]

Where is this idea coming from that the Vuelta field was weak? Am I right in assuming that you're basing your opinion of 'weak' on names? The numbers on the climbs were insane. Better than the Tour even.

Roglic is the best GC of 2019. Bernal is second.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Where is this idea coming from that the Vuelta field was weak? Am I right in assuming that you're basing your opinion of 'weak' on names? The numbers on the climbs were insane. Better than the Tour even.

Roglic is the best GC of 2019. Bernal is second.

A weak field. Yes, weak competition, both in numbers and quality.
Statement: Roglic is not the best GC rider of 2019. Boom. Now what?
Let me visualize in a way that makes it more clear:

TDF + TDS + PN >>>>>>>>>>>> Vuelta + UAE + TDR + TA

By a landslide.

 

[johnymax]

Where is this idea coming from that the Vuelta field was weak? Am I right in assuming that you're basing your opinion of 'weak' on names? The numbers on the climbs were insane. Better than the Tour even.

Roglic is the best GC of 2019. Bernal is second.

The numbers on the climbs were insane because the climbs in the Vuelta are shorter and more explosive thus is easier to have great numbers on such climbs. Anyway, the field was not weak. This comes from some individuals who want to protect their agenda. The field was short in depth because of all the dropouts throughout the race, that's true. But the top 6 were strong.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

The numbers on the climbs were insane because the climbs in the Vuelta are shorter and more explosive thus is easier to have great numbers on such climbs. Anyway, the field was not weak. This comes from some individuals who want to protect their agenda. The field was short in depth because of all the dropouts throughout the race, that's true. But the top 6 were strong.

Talk about serving an agenda. I have no issues with Roglic, i even quite like the guy. I do have issues with insane statements as if winning the mighty UAE or Romandie are reason to put him above the winner of the TDF (who won 2 other far more prestigious races than UAE or TDR). Or claiming the opposition in the Vuelta was on par with that of Giro (where he came up short) or TDF. This is simply becoming satirical at this point.

 

[Koronin]

How about just take the podium of the Giro and Vuelta. Giro we have Carapaz, Nibali, Roglic and Vuelta we have Pogacar, Roglic, Valverde (alphabetical order). Competition from just the podium finishers for both, obviously Roglic is there for both. Then we'd have to compare Carapaz to Pogacar. First podium in a Grand Tour for both however Carapaz is 25/26 while Pogacar is 20. (Carapaz had a more solid team helping him as well). I'd give a small point to Carapaz as he did have a top 5 at the previous Giro while this was Pogacar's first ever Grand Tour. Then compare Nibali to Valverde. In both cases they were targeting their specific Grand Tour. Nibali is a bit younger and has more Grand Tour wins. Valverde is exceptionally good at la Vuelta. I also think it's fair to say that both have declined a little from their highest form. Nibali was trying to win, while Valverde admitted after la Vuelta that he didn't even dare to dream of a Vuelta podium (let alone attempting to win it). So give this one to Nibali. So on this basis, yes the Giro did have a bit better field GT, however, I'm not entirely sure it was hugely better field for GC. Was it deeper, I'd have to say the Giro definitely had a deeper GC field. When la Vuelta started there were really only 4-5 real contenders for the podium to start with.
(Of course in the Giro we did have Nibali and Roglic playing mind games with each and that did help Carapaz to win. We didn't have anything like that with any of the podium finishers at la Vuelta.)

For me, the Vuelta win for Roglic is a very nice win.