Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

Was that before or after Riis tossed his TT bike?

Years later… Ca. 2004…

 

[Rackham]

A couple of rest day thoughts: Vingegaard is now in the position which Jumbo Visma said they absolutely wanted to avoid at all costs with Roglic in 2021 & 2022 (mano a mano versus Pogacar with the 'hope' he can be dropped). So the pr talk we see right now about Vingegaard being in a good position & Jumbo claiming they can be 'satisfied' with the first week (except for Roglic of course) is somewhat weird & not at all believable to me.

Secondly, beyond all the talk about Roglic's injury & overall physical condition, I was very surprised none of the other teams (Ineos, Bora, Movistar, FDJ, DSM etc.) never attempted to specifically attack Roglic over the weekend & drop him for good. From the moment they have no idea about the severity of his hurt, you drill it & test him. Because for someone like G Thomas for example, a fully recovered Roglic in week 3 would become a serious podium problem (& this applies to the others as well). It's not like he's 10 minutes down.

Oh & in response to a previous post questioning whether Roglic would go full gas to overtake Vingegaard in GC in the final ITT, lol, I'll only say the outcome would comparable to Imola 2020 in terms of Danish meltdowns matching those Belgian meltdowns on social media.

But considering the back issue, it's highly unlikely this scenario will materialize.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Vingegaard is now likely mano-a-mano against Pogi indeed. One will likely drop another in stages to come rather soonish. Team is now likely fully behind Vingegaard.

As for Rogla the short term name of the game is don't get dropped. Till the end of stage 12. Or in extreme case of luck join the bandwagon. Some other strong group, not UAE and not your own. And go for it.

If the team has some other ideas just agree but don't listen to them all that much. They left you hanging. You are entitled for some of that too.

Or most likely to decide and abandon the race due to injuries.

 

[Rackham]

Vingegaard is now likely mano-a-mano against Pogi indeed. One will likely drop another in stages to come rather soonish. Team is now likely fully behind Vingegaard.

As for Rogla the short term name of the game is don't get dropped. Till the end of stage 12. Or in extreme case of luck join the bandwagon. Some other strong group, not UAE and not your own. And go for it.

If the team has some other ideas just agree but don't listen to them all that much. They left you hanging. You are entitled for some of that too.

Or most likely to decide and abandon the race due to injuries.

Yep. If Wout van Aert is allowed to do whatever he wants (like yesterday, i.e. just handwaving his presence in the breakaway with a "this wasn't planned but I did it anyway" sort of comment), Roglic should just go for it if he feels it. But this applies to races going forward as well, not just this current TdF. I mean we're only talking about two weeks here, i.e. there's loads of races to come in the future.

I could write a super long wall of text about all this (which no one would read) but one of the issues (at least looking at them from the outside) is the fact sporting directors like Frans Maassen, Grischa Niermann & Arthur van Dongen aren't Grand Tour champions. They can't relate. There's too many men with calculators among the staff, no experience being a GT champion among the higher ups & other economic interests at Jumbo Visma which shapes their strategy.

The only reason Roglic is nearly 3 minutes down on GC is because of them.

 

[CyclistAbi]

It is what it is. No point in thinking about that too much anymore. As for JV tactics. Best to leave it to Denmark and Belgium fans now. To defend or not defend it. It's on them now.

From my point of view they left Primož hanging on second Tour edition in a row now. Left behind in a bunch to crash alone in some weird accident. Other people have other interest and obviously can still defend and praise JV for doing that. Just don't call it bad luck as karma will bite you back for doing that. Own it. I settled with what i just wrote above and found my peace of mind.

As for Rogla whatever he decides he has my support and we will just have to work with cards dealt.

 

[CyclistAbi]

 

[Ricco']

In the TdF, Primoz really has the luck of a FDJ GC rider.

 

[CyclistAbi]

In the TdF, Primoz really has the luck of a FDJ GC rider.

There are some similarities. Like Pinot being slapped in a face with a bag and Roglič with a cardboard. Beyond that similarities end. FDJ team doing a better job in regards to stage 5. And Roglič finishing ahead of them at PDBF.

Luck is one thing. Doing a good job and of top of that hoping for a kiss of luck is a totally different thing.

 

[Rackham]

From my point of view they left Primož hanging on second Tour edition in a row now. Left behind in a bunch to crash alone in some weird accident.

UCI rankings are what they are, i.e. Jumbo apparently didn't care for these numbers, just 'other' numbers which dictated they leave Roglic behind.

1	1	-	POGAČAR Tadej	UAE Team Emirates	5241
2	2	-	ROGLIČ Primož	Jumbo-Visma	4010
3	3	-	VAN AERT Wout	Jumbo-Visma	3631
4	4	-	EVENEPOEL Remco	Quick-Step Alpha Vinyl Team	3044
5	5	-	CARAPAZ Richard	INEOS Grenadiers	2692
6	6	-	MOHORIČ Matej	Bahrain - Victorious	2623
7	7	-	VINGEGAARD Jonas	Jumbo-Visma	2403

I think this Eurosport UK article was interesting: Opinion: The Big Winners and Losers from Week 1 of the Tour de France 2022 from Wout van Aert to Tadej Pogacar - Eurosport

LOSER - PRIMOZ ROGLIC

Referring to a rider who suffered a dislocated shoulder as a “loser” might seem like it’s adding insult to a very literal injury.
The fact of the matter, however, is that Roglic was originally one of the favourites for the general classification and is already almost three minutes behind.

The Slovenian has at least partially paid the price of his team’s divided loyalties. When he hit the deck on the so-called Roubaix stage several of his team-mates were nowhere to be seen when he needed them most. Instead of by his side where they ought to have been, Wout Van Aert, Steven Kruijswijk and Nathan Van Hooydonck were picking up the pieces and rescuing the result of Jonas Vingegaard.

 

[Elos Anjos]

There are some similarities. Like Pinot being slapped in a face with a bag and Roglič with a cardboard. Beyond that similarities end. FDJ team doing a better job in regards to stage 5. And Roglič finishing ahead of them at PDBF.

Luck is one thing. Doing a good job and of top of that hoping for a kiss of luck is a totally different thing.

The only reason Roglic is nearly 3 minutes down on GC is because of them.

There are two reasons why a rider looses time:

1. crash/mechanical
2. underperformig

A team can control and prevent the 1) but not entirely. You both have been making fair points regarding the relation between Team JV and Roglic, but putting out sheer (bad) luck is not reasonable. No team can be entirely responsible for the hazards that befall a rider.

I feel that the situation for Roglic in the team was not fair and putting WVA and Vingo in the same level was not reasonable. But there is no scenario where Jumbo could have taken an injured Roglic back to the peloton except the one where we must find a culprit for what happened to him again.

 

[Rackham]

There are two reasons why a rider loooses time:

1. crash/mechanical
2. underperformig

A team can control and prevennt the 1) but not entirely. You have been making fair points regarding the relation between Team JV and Roglic but putting out sheer (bad) luck is not reasonable. No team can be entirely responsible for the hazards that befall upon a rider.

I get what you're saying but the bad luck occurred after the team had demonstrated it valued Vingegaard more.

I had literally been thinking "where the hell are all his teammates?!" just before the disaster happened. So beyond what happened later (which was also bad), it was that initial decision from the team car to say "all for Jonas, Rog is on his own with only Laporte" when he was the one who was in ideal position on the road & in GC at that point.

It's not Roglic' fault Jonas Vingegaard panicked & started playing musical bikes with his teammates after his mechanical. But he certainly paid the price for his team's decision making.

 

[acm]

I hope that's the look he gave the DS after stage 5.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Elos Anjos

Still. Roglič was left alone back in the bunch on stage 5. Where he crashed in a weird incident. After van Aert saved Jonas. And more or less the same scenario happened on TDF 2021. They left Roglič back in the bunch alone to tackle Colbrelli. After they already got slapped with a cardboard.

P.S. AFAIK FDJ got both Gaudu and Pinot through stage 5 just fine.

 

[Rackham]

Niermann says Roglic is still a leader, but he can no longer win the TdF on a one on one dual with Pogacar (no kidding), so he'll have to attack from further out to get time back: Niermann na eerste week: 'Voor geel is het niet wat we wilden, maar Pogacar heeft geen krimp gegeven' | Wieler Revue

Interesting. Makes me wonder in what condition Jumbo believes he's in. At least he hasn't been consigned to bottle carrying duties. So there's that.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Don't listen to them Rogla. Just don't get dropped till the end of stage 12. Or join some other team or group bandwagon if such opportunity emerges. If someone from your team wants to send you on an attack ASAP. Kick them in the nuts give them a bike and let them do it. Put in van Aert as a help.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Niermann says Roglic is still a leader, but he can no longer win the TdF on a one on one dual with Pogacar (no kidding), so he'll have to attack from further out to get time back: Niermann na eerste week: 'Voor geel is het niet wat we wilden, maar Pogacar heeft geen krimp gegeven' | Wieler Revue

Interesting. Makes me wonder in what condition Jumbo believes he's in. At least he hasn't been consigned to bottle carrying duties. So there's that.

Unless Vingegaard proves to be the strongest in the race, they need to keep Roglič up there for as long as possible. But if he already loses too much time on Tuesday, it'll be diffrent. Then he'll be a helper for Vingegaard, unless he's either too injured to continue or in case Vingegaard is safe in second but can't move up, he'll be allowed to go for stages if he's feeling well enough.

 

[cen]

He is almost 3 minutes down on GC. Team must drill 100% for Jonas now, Primož can go long by himself, maybe use Kruijswijk to launch him, that's about it.

 

[CyclistAbi]

To sunset him in demise and to take Stevie with him. Or to put him on a small boat with van Aert to row away. Each rowing in their own direction.

P.S. Don't listen to them Rogla. Hang on.

 

[Rackham]

Unless Vingegaard proves to be the strongest in the race, they need to keep Roglič up there for as long as possible. But if he already loses too much time on Tuesday, it'll be diffrent. Then he'll be a helper for Vingegaard, unless he's either too injured to continue or in case Vingegaard is safe in second but can't move up, he'll be allowed to go for stages if he's feeling well enough.

It all seems weird to me. Roglic has said himself he's just 'surviving' out there & his back hurts a lot.

Now Niermann comes out & publicly encourages Roglic to ride offensive. What's going on? Why don't Jumbo just say "we're taking the race one stage at a time with Roglic & monitoring his injury". Job done. If the rider is saying "I'm hurt" & the team is saying "Go attack", something is off. I'm not even reading too much into this, i.e. it's right there in the conflicting statements put out by both parties. I mean I'd obviously love for Roglic to start dropping nukes like peak Pantani in the Alps but I think it could be way too soon (& probably not possible).

I think the most we'd get (& I'm being realistic here) is the TdF equivalent of Bernal's long raid in the Vuelta last year. With Roglic in the role of Bernal. The issue is also the fact I suspect Pogacar would jump on his wheel just for fun, even if it's 60km from the finish. He's probably that strong & would enjoy the spectacle.

Also, no rest day interview with Roglic today:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1546465559151271937

 

[Netserk]

Unless Vingegaard proves to be the strongest in the race, they need to keep Roglič up there for as long as possible. But if he already loses too much time on Tuesday, it'll be diffrent. Then he'll be a helper for Vingegaard, unless he's either too injured to continue or in case Vingegaard is safe in second but can't move up, he'll be allowed to go for stages if he's feeling well enough.

Tuesday won't see GC action. Wednesday will be all about the Rogla yolo-attack on Galibier.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Tuesday won't see GC action. Wednesday will be all about the Rogla yolo-attack on Galibier.

I don't assume so either, but if he actually is feeling horrible, you never know what might happen.

It all seems weird to me. Roglic has said himself he's just 'surviving' out there & his back hurts a lot.

Now Niermann comes out & publicly encourages Roglic to ride offensive. What's going on? Why don't Jumbo just say "we're taking the race one stage at a time with Roglic & monitoring his injury". Job done. If the rider is saying "I'm hurt" & the team is saying "Go attack", something is off. I'm not even reading too much into this, i.e. it's right there in the conflicting statements put out by both parties. I mean I'd obviously love for Roglic to start dropping nukes like peak Pantani in the Alps but I think it could be way too soon (& probably not possible).

I think the most we'd get (& I'm being realistic here) is the TdF equivalent of Bernal's long raid in the Vuelta last year. With Roglic in the role of Bernal. The issue is also the fact I suspect Pogacar would jump on his wheel just for fun, even if it's 60km from the finish. He's probably that strong & would enjoy the spectacle.

Also, no rest day interview with Roglic today:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1546465559151271937

Even if it is an illusion, they need to keep the idea of Roglič being strong alive, in case he will recover enough to be able to attack. They probably also want to cater to his fans.

 

[Netserk]

If it was up to me though, Morzine -> Megève is just about the perfect distance (~56 km) for a mid-race ITT.

 

[noob]

Any news on our beloved today?

 

[acm]

Any news on our beloved today?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1546482253752156160

https://twitter.com/x/status/1546482646645186561

 

[noob]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1546482253752156160

https://twitter.com/x/status/1546482646645186561

Thank you. I guess it's still not good then sadly. But it's lovely to see him nonetheless. (The only thing I don't understand about Roglic is why he has to touch himself in front of people )