Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

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Well of course he wants, he’s third best GC rider in the world. Contemplating he might be content going for Vueltas and Tour de Suisse is what I find a tad derogatory…

But I agree with the part he should switch teams. The question is - does Roglic fully understand he will be second fiddle in TDF (assuming they let him join)…
Why is simply stating the obvious derogatory? For it's clear that if the proven Vingegaard is healthy and on form, Roglic would start the Tour on Jumbo in a secondary role. So if he wants leadership in France, he'll need to go elsewhere. I don't think he'll be content to retire without another full crack at the Tour, however. Consequently, moving to another team becomes a real draw. But it's risky. Jumbo is the best outfit in the sport. They offer performance gaurantees other teams can't currently match. Like a number of Skybots, once they left the nest, whatever magic had allowed them to perform so sensationally, in the new environment the mojo was gone. One possibile exception was Porte making the Tour podium on the very Trek in 2020, but that was an unusual year. Hence, remaining at Jumbo would likely allow Primoz to maintain his level for another few years, winning big races outside the Tour, which, at his age, isn't to take lightly. Yet, the Tour is the Tour. This is what I took from the comment you found, unfairly in my view, insulting.
 
What i find funny is, people are arguing about would/should things regarding Roglič career and he looks like he's having a time of his life. I think he made peace with himself, racing and Tour. He's taking it race after race and he's a totaly different person racing on any other race except Tour. Leaving JV at his age means loosing the best team, best support team, best equipment and all his second family. And probably a nice job after career is done.

And for what? To go on Tour, where he meets the same guys he would if he stayed. Vinge is the benchmark. If you can't beat him in the same team, you won't beat him in a different team.

Everything can end or change so fast. Couple years ago Roglič was the benchmark and then came Pog. Then Pog was the benchmark and Vinge showed up. Who knows what happens next. He looks really happy where he is. Stay, fight, win and loose. When career ends, stay again and we might see him in a different role at JV. Why not eh?
 
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After some commentators and pundits said that Primoz has to leave JV if he wants to win the Tour, it was tempting to nod our heads in agreement. But maybe Primoz knows best about his career! Gargamel makes two good points: 1. Jumbo's team support and management is outstanding! Just look at how deftly the team worked together for the last two Tours. They had good strategies and coached a young Jonas so that he believed that he could beat someone who looked invincible. 2. Things can change very quickly on a team. People get injured and teammates can change their goals. Maybe Primoz is very content to keep on winning stage races, Giros, and Vueltas. JV might give him a few million more reasons to stay. Maybe Jonas, if he wins the Vuelta, will decide that he wants to go for a hat trick of his own. He might win the Giro and work for Primoz to win the Tour. He could then join the ranks of Froome, Merckx, and Hinault by holding all three titles at once. Primoz will make the best decision for himself.
 
What i find funny is, people are arguing about would/should things regarding Roglič career and he looks like he's having a time of his life. I think he made peace with himself, racing and Tour. He's taking it race after race and he's a totaly different person racing on any other race except Tour. Leaving JV at his age means loosing the best team, best support team, best equipment and all his second family. And probably a nice job after career is done.

And for what? To go on Tour, where he meets the same guys he would if he stayed. Vinge is the benchmark. If you can't beat him in the same team, you won't beat him in a different team.

Everything can end or change so fast. Couple years ago Roglič was the benchmark and then came Pog. Then Pog was the benchmark and Vinge showed up. Who knows what happens next. He looks really happy where he is. Stay, fight, win and loose. When career ends, stay again and we might see him in a different role at JV. Why not eh?
I have to agree point for point in this one.
 
After some commentators and pundits said that Primoz has to leave JV if he wants to win the Tour, it was tempting to nod our heads in agreement. But maybe Primoz knows best about his career!

He'll base his decision on what's best for himself, irrespective of what we outsiders think we know.

To say we only see the tip of the iceberg regarding what happens inside a cycling team is a massive understatement. If he stays, he has his reasons... & if he leaves, he'll also have a reason to do so, i.e. reasons which go beyond whatever logic we might search for ourselves based on whatever we see from outside looking in.

I'll throw my hat into the ring & say Rog is at his happiest when he's going on a trek (pun unintended) up Monte Lussari in January on a recon for the Giro individual time trial, with that singular goal in mind & with the knowledge he's fully backed to achieve it. He also likes new goals & not just going to the same races again, again & again & targeting stuff he's already won. We can also safely assume he's not motivated by money either.

I think he wants the Tour & an environment in which he can prepare for it with full support. If that's at Jumbo, it'll be at Jumbo. If it's elsewhere... it'll be elsewhere.
 
His best chance to win the Tour is still with Jumbo, as long as he can ride it and prepare optimally for it there. I also hope that going there as clear number two on the team will make it easier for him to relax a bit and not crash.
I see what you mean but there is a caveat. It depends on what Jumbo wants him to do if he stays with them. If they simply don't want two leaders at the Tour (which wouldn't be that unusual) and instead want him to ride the Giro every year from now on, then no, he would not be more likely to win the Tour with them than with Trek. And I think this is precisely the scenario in which a new team would make sense. I would absolutely understand if he doesn't want to spend the rest of his career trying to win races he has already won.

And on another note, I would find it a bit funny if after Contador and Nibali Trek sign another big name aging gc rider. That's probably the main reason I'm all for it.
 
I see what you mean but there is a caveat. It depends on what Jumbo wants him to do if he stays with them. If they simply don't want two leaders at the Tour (which wouldn't be that unusual) and instead want him to ride the Giro every year from now on, then no, he would not be more likely to win the Tour with them than with Trek. And I think this is precisely the scenario in which a new team would make sense. I would absolutely understand if he doesn't want to spend the rest of his career trying to win races he has already won.

And on another note, I would find it a bit funny if after Contador and Nibali Trek sign another big name aging gc rider. That's probably the main reason I'm all for it.
Thus the caveat: "as long as he can ride it and prepare optimally for it there".

If this Vuelta goes well, I hope that Jumbo will plan for both Vingegaard and Rogla to do the Tour-Vuelta double next year.
 
Interesting interview in today's La Gazzetta dello Sport: (which answers many questions on his status and ambitions on Jumbo)

G: Primoz do think you are living the best season of your career?

P: I don't really know, but I believe that I'm enjoying myself more than in in the past, maybe because I've become wiser with age. For sure I want to continue like this.

G: You are always able to arrive prepared for each competition. How do you do it?

P: Each year I try to change something in training, to evolve. But the key is to take everything in stride, in a relaxed way, just peddling without asking yourself too many questions. I have faith in my work and, once again, there's a good chance I'm ready for this Vuelta.

G: Your Jumbo-Visma is going after a grand slam never done by one team in the same year. You have already won the Giro and Vingegaard the Tour. But now you are together: you both start on the same footing and will it be the rode that decides who is captain?

P: Yes, I hope so. The priority is to win as a team. And it's not just he and I who aspire to win the GC, but many very strong rivals. For me it's a great challenge.

G: Would you be willing to help Vingegaard if it were necessary, and would the same be valid for the Dane?

P: Certainly, it's not something up for discussion. It's a question of professionalism.

G: You mentioned many rivals: will Evenepoel, the defending champion, be the most dangerous?

P: I'll know better after some stages, after I've seen everybody. Remco just won the WCTT and there's nothing else to add. He will be very competative. I also think of Thomas, of Ayuso. Like I said, there are many of them.

G: Three months have passed since you won the Giro. Have you enjoyed It? Did it give you something extra?

P: Naturally yes, I savoured it. I've thought about it often and can say, "I won the Giro d'Italia." It's an incerdible privilege. I'm the first Slovenian to have done so. It's history.

G: You once said as time goes by, like a fine wine, I get better. What's the main reason?

P: Experience teaches new things and I try to put them into practice and progress.

G: You turn 34 in October. Have you thought about when you will stop?

P: No, really, and I'm not interested in thinking about it. As long as I'm enjoying myself, I'll continue. When I'll realize I've had enough, I'll stop, without hesitation or second thoughts.

G: Three Vueltas, a Giro, Olympic gold in the TT and much more, only the Tour is missing. Have you given up on that?

P: No, no. It's missing and I will still try to win it.

G: Let's finish with a thought towards this Vuelta. There's no doubt you have a special rapport with Spain. How come?

P: The routes, the climate, the warmth of the fans. This year, furthermore, on the route we encounter the Angrilu, the Tourmalet... mythical climbs. And to have the opportunity to win for the fourth time motivates me a lot.
 
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He'll base his decision on what's best for himself, irrespective of what we outsiders think we know.

To say we only see the tip of the iceberg regarding what happens inside a cycling team is a massive understatement. If he stays, he has his reasons... & if he leaves, he'll also have a reason to do so, i.e. reasons which go beyond whatever logic we might search for ourselves based on whatever we see from outside looking in.

I'll throw my hat into the ring & say Rog is at his happiest when he's going on a trek (pun unintended) up Monte Lussari in January on a recon for the Giro individual time trial, with that singular goal in mind & with the knowledge he's fully backed to achieve it. He also likes new goals & not just going to the same races again, again & again & targeting stuff he's already won. We can also safely assume he's not motivated by money either.

I think he wants the Tour & an environment in which he can prepare for it with full support. If that's at Jumbo, it'll be at Jumbo. If it's elsewhere... it'll be elsewhere.
I really don't think (cycling) team dynamics are as mystical or obscure as you make them out to be. For those of us who have been following the sport for decades, it's always been the same dynamic. Too many roosters in the henhouse chasing the same goal (especially the Tour), sooner or later something gives in one form or another. The examples are numerous: Fignon and Hinault (and Lemond), Lemond and Hinault, Delgado and Indurain, Chiappucci and Pantani, Rijs and Ullrich, Armstrong and Contador, etc. One rider either gets demmoted (and isn't content) or else leaves to seek opportunity elsewhere.

Now Roglic stating in the Gazzetta dello Sport interview I posted that he still intends to pursue victory at the Tour inevitably invites speculation. Because if he thinks this will be with Jumbo-Visma, naturally with Vingegaard it's complicated. Shades of an inverted Hinault-Lemond dilemma (this time the veteran wants to (re)overtake the young phenomen who's now a proven champion). Unavoidably, therefore, whether he's otherwise happy or not at Jumbo, seeking complete backing at the Tour elsewhere becomes a distinct possibility, as was often the case in the past. Doesn't mean he will, but one doesn't need to be him or a rocket scientist to know what's at stake.
 
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I really don't think (cycling) team dynamics are as mystical or obscure as you make them out to be. For those of us who have been following the sport for decades, it's always been the same dynamic. Too many roosters in the henhouse chasing the same goal (especially the Tour), sooner or later something gives in one form or another. The examples are numerous: Fignon and Hinault (and Lemond), Lemond and Hinault, Delgado and Indurain, Chiappucci and Pantani, Rijs and Ullrich, Armstrong and Contador, etc. One rider either gets demmoted (and isn't content) or else leaves to seek opportunity elsewhere.

Now Roglic stating in the Gazzetta dello Sport interview I posted that he still intends to pursue victory at the Tour inevitably invites speculation. Because if he thinks this will be with Jumbo-Visma, naturally with Vingegaard it's complicated. Shades of an inverted Hinault-Lemond dilemma (this time the veteran wants to (re)overtake the young phenomen who's now a proven champion). Unavoidably, therefore, whether he's otherwise happy or not at Jumbo, seeking complete backing at the Tour elsewhere becomes a distinct possibility, as was often the case in the past. Doesn't mean he will, but one doesn't need to be him or a rocket scientist to know what's at stake.

I agree.

I was mostly pushing back against some preconceptions regarding a possible transfer out of Jumbo, i.e. whereby people would conclude he's made a mistake because "Jumbo is the best team" etc.

It's a moot point, i.e. what's best for Jumbo can quite plausibly no longer be what's best for Rog. So yes, that's the dilemma. What we have seen in recent weeks is Jonas Vingegaard saying he doesn't want his "dream team" changed at the TdF next year (implying he was more than happy to be sole leader & it was best for him) & Rog saying he wants to try to win the Tour because it's what's missing in his palmarès.

For what it's worth I do believe they'll ride very well together at the Vuelta, but the Vuelta is not the Tour.
 
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Lol. Pogacar is clearly seated at the second spot, and Roglic is 3rd. Only Remco fanboys would disagree for now.
We were discussing 1-week stage races. In which case it would actually be Pogacar > Roglic > Vingegaard, imo. GT's it's Vingegaard > Pogacar > Roglic.

Also even when no one mentions Remco, he always seem to live rent free in some people's head.
 
We were discussing 1-week stage races. In which case it would actually be Pogacar > Roglic > Vingegaard, imo. GT's it's Vingegaard > Pogacar > Roglic.

Also even when no one mentions Remco, he always seem to live rent free in some people's head.
No, we were discussing GT’s and you switched the convo to one week races. Rent free in my head is a funny statement, when I’m just listing the order of GT riders currently.
 
I really don't think (cycling) team dynamics are as mystical or obscure as you make them out to be. For those of us who have been following the sport for decades, it's always been the same dynamic. Too many roosters in the henhouse chasing the same goal (especially the Tour), sooner or later something gives in one form or another. The examples are numerous: Fignon and Hinault (and Lemond), Lemond and Hinault, Delgado and Indurain, Chiappucci and Pantani, Rijs and Ullrich, Armstrong and Contador, etc. One rider either gets demmoted (and isn't content) or else leaves to seek opportunity elsewhere.

Now Roglic stating in the Gazzetta dello Sport interview I posted that he still intends to pursue victory at the Tour inevitably invites speculation. Because if he thinks this will be with Jumbo-Visma, naturally with Vingegaard it's complicated. Shades of an inverted Hinault-Lemond dilemma (this time the veteran wants to (re)overtake the young phenomen who's now a proven champion). Unavoidably, therefore, whether he's otherwise happy or not at Jumbo, seeking complete backing at the Tour elsewhere becomes a distinct possibility, as was often the case in the past. Doesn't mean he will, but one doesn't need to be him or a rocket scientist to know what's at stake.
Lol, in typical Roglic fashion he manages to say nothing at all, and still apparently this invites speculation about his future :)

Of course he still wants to win the Tour. It's what would really make his career complete. I disagree that he would have more chance of winning it on another team. I'd argue that you'd rather be on the team of the guy who won it so dominantly the past two years, than racing against him.
 
Lol, in typical Roglic fashion he manages to say nothing at all, and still apparently this invites speculation about his future :)

Of course he still wants to win the Tour. It's what would really make his career complete. I disagree that he would have more chance of winning it on another team. I'd argue that you'd rather be on the team of the guy who won it so dominantly the past two years, than racing against him.
Do you have shares in Jumbo?
 
Lol, in typical Roglic fashion he manages to say nothing at all, and still apparently this invites speculation about his future :)

Of course he still wants to win the Tour. It's what would really make his career complete. I disagree that he would have more chance of winning it on another team. I'd argue that you'd rather be on the team of the guy who won it so dominantly the past two years, than racing against him.
Of course, this inevitably implies you, too, have to beat him, whilst allies and rivals on the same team are like vinegar and oil.
 
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No, we were discussing GT’s and you switched the convo to one week races. Rent free in my head is a funny statement, when I’m just listing the order of GT riders currently.
They’re replying and discussing this post.


To who? He's the 3rd best GT rider and 1st 1 week rider. Who will he play second fiddle on besides TJV and UAE?