Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[bNator]

Is Rog not a team player? Is he full of s... when he says he is happy for GC Kuss to win? Has the race not made a fare bit of sense tactically so far?

I get if you would like "your guy" to win, but this is getting ridiculous. I actually think Rog is a better person than most here and just wants what is best for the team in this situation. There is just such an undercurrent of resentment here towards everyone around Rog. Could be I'm misreading the room, but damn.

If you think a rider is just as happy for his teammate to win as for himself you are either trolling or delusional. It’s not about being a good person or not - that’s just not how human nature works.

 

[SHAD0W93]

If you think a rider is just as happy for his teammate to win as for himself you are either trolling or delusional. It’s not about being a good person or not - that’s just not how human nature works.

Depends on what kind of win it is. Rolgic as happy as Kuss for him winning a stage, yes. Rolgic as happy as Kuss for winning a GT and he was second, no.

 

[kn0s]

If you think a rider is just as happy for his teammate to win as for himself you are either trolling or delusional. It’s not about being a good person or not - that’s just not how human nature works.

Well I think human nature is a bit more complex than "me win, yes!".

Sometimes if you read many pages of a riders thread you get a general "feel" of things. This was just whiny and with the sense of Rog being robbed of his right to win the race. I just can't put Roglic himself in this mindset.

 

[bNator]

Depends on what kind of win it is. Rolgic as happy as Kuss for him winning a stage, yes. Rolgic as happy as Kuss for winning a GT and he was second, no.

Sure, I can imagine him being happy to give Kuss a stage win. I can also imagine him being content with Kuss winning if Kuss is clearly a better rider. I could never imagine him being happy with Kuss winning due to circumstance and tactics.

This, for instance, is Rogla’s statement yesterday when asked about Kuss being able to hold his form for so long after having rider 2 GTs already: “Čudno, neobičajno, da se to dogaja. A gremo korak za korakom. Vuelta je šele zares zavila v prave gore,”. Which translates to “weird and unusual for this to happen. But we go day by day. Real mountains have only just began”. This to me doesn’t sound like a statement of a happy guy…

Source to that quote:

Kdo izmed trojice čebel bo zmagal? Roglič: "Sladke skrbi za ekipo."

Sanjski dan na Tourmaletu prinaša Jumbu Vismi izredno priložnost, da s tretjim kolesarjem kot prva ekipa v zgodovini osvoji vse tritedenske dirke sezone. Primož Roglič in Jonas Vingegaard ter vse čebele zdaj lahko popeljejo Seppa Kussa vse do Madrida.

www.rtvslo.si

 

[bNator]

Well I think human nature is a bit more complex than "me win, yes!".

Sometimes if you read many pages of a riders thread you get a general "feel" of things. This was just whiny and with the sense of Rog being robbed of his right to win the race. I just can't put Roglic himself in this mindset.

Look at the quote I posted above…

 

[kn0s]

Look at the quote I posted above…

You could be right. Maybe you can take what he says literally. "It's unusual to be this good after two GT's, we will see if he can cope with all three weeks" nothing about his feelings one way or the other.

 

[CyclistAbi]

It's more or less over. That is record tying victory will have to wait for a while. On stage 13 JV dropped the hammer and won this race. You (the competition) don't recover from that.

Jonas can go and crack Sepp if he wants that and i hope that Rolga doesn't do that. So targeting the stages for wins, like 16, and not losing time it is then. For more the race and the field is not strong enough. That is Rogla is likely the strongest rider on this race, but now that Remco is out of GC battle, Ayuso will likely try, but realistically i don't see anybody cracking Kuss. I am not too happy about it but attacking Kuss is not something that i want to see. Wishing that Kuss would crack. That is not something i want either.

So stay close and have fun. And we will fill the bag on some future race again. As Kuss deserves a trophy cabinet. For when Rogla and Jonas came visit.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Bastards.

 

[acm]

I hope he'll ride Italian classics and show who's the strongest. Too bad we can't see that now...

 

[zlev11]

i still think Kuss will have a bad day, but I dont think anyone should be too upset if he wins after all the help he's given Roglic over the years

 

[Tim Cahill]

What a strange Vuelta this i for Roglic, there is a consensus that he's probably the strongest in the race but is riding in for a pretty unmemorable 2nd, none of it really his fault.

I am looking forward more to seeing him go head to head with Pogacar in the classics for the first time in what seems like years, it's still one of the most interesting rivalries in cycling but they rarely see each other, maybe Evenepoel will be in good form for it too.

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

Wednesday and Thursday will be hard, but all other stages still to come are easy. I think Sepp Kuss will win this Vuelta, and Primoz will be happy for him. These two are big friends, after all…

 

[Rackham]

I think there should be a snap poll conducted today (around the world because why not), i.e. "do you think Roglič & Vingegaard should battle each other in the Vuelta?"

I mean that's what we want to see, right? I sure do. I mean otherwise we'll simply watch Jumbo ride around Spain for another week & act all happy when they collect their 1, 2, 3 on the podium with Kuss as the winner. I guess the team & sponsor will be pleased but what do we get out of that? Nothing!

As a Rogla fan it's a bit of a damp squib to see this rider prepare for months for a GT & basically lose it because Quick-Step were so useless they couldn't control Kuss's breakaway in week 1. And he'll lose his 100% win ratio this season as well. Which is a shame.

This is probably the first time in years where Rog is entering the final week of a GT & I see no path to victory, i.e. not because of his legs but because of team politics.

 

[Gargamel35]

If Vingegaard is allowed to attack Kuss again and Rog not, i hope Rog throws his bike away and goes home. I think Rog has no problem with Kuss winning Vuelta but i have a big problem with Vingegaard winning it by attacking while Kuss and Rog are not allowed the same.

 

[cellardoor]

If Vingegaard is allowed to attack Kuss again and Rog not, i hope Rog throws his bike away and goes home. I think Rog has no problem with Kuss winning Vuelta but i have a big problem with Vingegaard winning it by attacking while Kuss and Rog are not allowed the same.

Similarly problematic is if they come to mid-stage bonus seconds with no breakaway ahead. Jonas can snatch 2nd from Roglic. Do the team decide who sprints? Do they sprint against each other? Do they just give the seconds to Ayuso?

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

If Vingegaard is allowed to attack Kuss again and Rog not, i hope Rog throws his bike away and goes home. I think Rog has no problem with Kuss winning Vuelta but i have a big problem with Vingegaard winning it by attacking while Kuss and Rog are not allowed the same.

One can probably justify Vingegaards attack on Tourmalet that he was behind in the GC and he was attacking riders that were ahead of him and Ayoso and Mas that was just behind.

Now the situation is completely different with the 1-2-3 and pretty comfortable margin down to Ayoso, and if Vingegaard (or Roglic) are attacking (not thinking about following other riders attacking) it's now definitely an attack on their team mate.

 

[Gargamel35]

One can probably justify Vingegaards attack on Tourmalet that he was behind in the GC and he was attacking riders that were ahead of him and Ayoso and Mas that was just behind.

Now the situation is completely different with the 1-2-3 and pretty comfortable margin down to Ayoso, and if Vingegaard (or Roglic) are attacking (not thinking about following other riders attacking) it's now definitely an attack on their team mate.

Vingegaard attacked everybody and Kuss was allowed to follow only when he was far away. Then Roglič was allowed to go, when Kuss was far away (on top basically). If Kuss wouldn't be able to jump as he did, Vinge would not slow down and would take nr. 1 place in GC.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Vingegaard attacked everybody and Kuss was allowed to follow only when he was far away. Then Roglič was allowed to go, when Kuss was far away (on top basically). If Kuss wouldn't be able to jump as he did, Vinge would not slow down and would take nr. 1 place in GC.

I’m not sure about the maths here.
The jump Kuss made in the end only gave him like 10 seconds compared to Mas for example.

And I don’t think Vingegaard slowed down much, if anything at all. He looked cooked and the climbing time was very strong.

So basically: even without the jump Kuss made and even without Vingegaard hypothetically sowing down, the difference is not anywhere near the 1m44s that keeps Vingegaard out of the red jersey.

 

[AmRacer]

Vingegaard attacked everybody and Kuss was allowed to follow only when he was far away. Then Roglič was allowed to go, when Kuss was far away (on top basically). If Kuss wouldn't be able to jump as he did, Vinge would not slow down and would take nr. 1 place in GC.

Vinge's only way to win the stage was to attack a few km from the finish.
Kuss could probably only attack the last k or so.
Rogla would always win a sprint

 

[bNator]

I don’t get the “Kuss deserves” narrative. I mean maybe he does. But not because he helped in the past. That was his job and that’s what he got paid for. If he deserves this victory it would be because he may be the strongest rider of this race.

When people say he sacrificed himself for others - that’s really pushing it. He was a domestique and good at his job. But he didn’t sacrifice his own chances for others - because he didn’t have any chances back then.

Ironically - if Kuss wins and Vinge/Rogla are stronger, then those two will have sacrificed a lot more for Kuss than Kuss ever did for them. A full GT victory.

My post might feel sour but it’s not. I don’t think either Roglic or Vinge should attack. If nothing else, they will look like dicks. And if Kuss wins even though he’s not the strongest, it’s not the end of the world. Bet let’s not keep saying he somehow deserves it just because he sacrificed himself. Because he really didn’t…

 

[theyoungest]

Well I think human nature is a bit more complex than "me win, yes!".

Sometimes if you read many pages of a riders thread you get a general "feel" of things. This was just whiny and with the sense of Rog being robbed of his right to win the race. I just can't put Roglic himself in this mindset.

You're 100% correct. Some of Rogla's fans feel like somehow his team conspires to never let him win (even though he wins quite a lot...). They cannot fathom that Roglic could be satisfied to see a teammate win, or that he's satisfied at Jumbo in general. So they start filling in all of his emotions and thoughts, which he has never openly expressed. I think that's pretty disrespectful. It's somehow quite patronizing to never take him on his word and say "no no little Primoz, you're supposed to be angry!" But his fans apparently don't see it this way.

As for him being the strongest rider in the race... if he had to actually race Kuss and Vingegaard on the Tourmalet, I'm not so sure the outcome would have been all that different. So maybe it's not even that big of a sacrifice he has to make. Of course he'd love to win the Vuelta himself, but he's not clearly better than his two teammates.

 

[Red Rick]

You're 100% correct. Some of Rogla's fans feel like somehow his team conspires to never let him win (even though he wins quite a lot...). They cannot fathom that Roglic could be satisfied to see a teammate win, or that he's satisfied at Jumbo in general. So they start filling in all of his emotions and thoughts, which he has never openly expressed. I think that's pretty disrespectful. It's somehow quite patronizing to never take him on his word and say "no no little Primoz, you're supposed to be angry!" But his fans apparently don't see it this way.

As for him being the strongest rider in the race... if he had to actually race Kuss and Vingegaard on the Tourmalet, I'm not so sure the outcome would have been all that different. So maybe it's not even that big of a sacrifice he has to make. Of course he'd love to win the Vuelta himself, but he's not clearly better than his two teammates.

Yeah I'm mainly salty that the opposition isn't even good enough to put enough together to put Kuss in difficulty so that some action may still happen.

Jumbo being happy to defend 1-2-3 after already winning 3 stages is the most understandable thing in the world. Maybe they wanna win Angliru

 

[Rackham]

Well, a case could be made that any absolute claims regarding Rog's actual feelings on the matter are purely speculative, no matter the conclusion.

He said years ago he'd be happy to see Kuss win a GT, i.e. for example there was an interview during one of his victorious Vueltas in which he clearly stated he'd be pleased if Kuss won, although "he needs the legs to do so" (words to that effect).

And Rog is a professional as well. These riders all face the exact same reality: when a teammate has the jersey (& more importantly good enough legs to defend it), you don't attack him. This is literally a basic rule of cycling. And Jumbo are even bigger on the whole "win together" mantra, so there will be no attacks from anyone.

That's all dandy of course but as a spectacle it's complete sh*t & I feel as fans we're perfectly entitled to say A/ "hey, I'd rather my guy won" & B/ "this race is tripe". I mean the prospect of the three Jumbos riding the last week in formation like a training ride & maintaining their current position... is bleak.

It's all Evenepoel's fault of course, i.e. "if only" he'd maintained a proper challenge we wouldn't be facing this non-race right now.

 

[kn0s]

You're 100% correct. Some of Rogla's fans feel like somehow his team conspires to never let him win (even though he wins quite a lot...). They cannot fathom that Roglic could be satisfied to see a teammate win, or that he's satisfied at Jumbo in general. So they start filling in all of his emotions and thoughts, which he has never openly expressed. I think that's pretty disrespectful. It's somehow quite patronizing to never take him on his word and say "no no little Primoz, you're supposed to be angry!" But his fans apparently don't see it this way.

As for him being the strongest rider in the race... if he had to actually race Kuss and Vingegaard on the Tourmalet, I'm not so sure the outcome would have been all that different. So maybe it's not even that big of a sacrifice he has to make. Of course he'd love to win the Vuelta himself, but he's not clearly better than his two teammates.

Exactly what I was trying to convey.

As for him being the strongest, I honestly don't know. He went up the tourmalet like he didn't have to much extra gas in the tank. Didn't react to much when Mas was trying to shake things up. But he might just be riding smart. You never know with him, he is a patient mofo.

I think all three Jumbo guys could win this Vuelta in there own way. Rog probably would only need stomps. Jonas with two medium range attacks and Kuss by being underestimate, and figuring out he's better than even he thought.

The way things played out, it looks like Kuss is going to get it, and good for him.

 

[Rackham]

Exactly what I was trying to convey.

As for him being the strongest, I honestly don't know.

Who even cares about "who" the strongest is. Bike racing is about who crosses the line first, not who has the best numbers.

If there was a real, proper Rog versus Vinge GC battle, both riders would use their respective teams & strengths based on their own qualities. I could imagine Vinge dropping big attacks on the longest highest altitude climbs, whilst Rog would go hard on the punchier terrains. The point I'm making here is when teammates are 1, 2 & 3 in GC, it's not just about who the strongest is, it's also about who got the lucky roll of the dice. In this case it was Kuss.

But there was also another scenario where an echelon or split in the bunch happened & Vingegaard found himself ahead of both Kuss & Rog in GC, at which point he'd be the winner.

It could still happen as well. But we won't know who was really the strongest between the 3 of them because they're not going to directly battle each other.