Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

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K

kn0s

Jul 25, 2022
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Rackham said:
Who even cares about "who" the strongest is. Bike racing is about who crosses the line first, not who has the best numbers.

If there was a real, proper Rog versus Vinge GC battle, both riders would use their respective teams & strengths based on their own qualities. I could imagine Vinge dropping big attacks on the longest highest altitude climbs, whilst Rog would go hard on the punchier terrains. The point I'm making here is when teammates are 1, 2 & 3 in GC, it's not just about who the strongest is, it's also about who got the lucky roll of the dice. In this case it was Kuss.

But there was also another scenario where an echelon or split in the bunch happened & Vingegaard found himself ahead of both Kuss & Rog in GC, at which point he'd be the winner.

It could still happen as well. But we won't know who was really the strongest between the 3 of them because they're not going to directly battle each other.
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Agree completely. Also quite sure most of the excitement is gone. Hope other stuff happens, the Jumbo parade is no fun.
 
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Rackham

Rackham

Jul 16, 2015
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kn0s said:
Agree completely. Also quite sure most of the excitement is gone. Hope other stuff happens, the Jumbo parade is no fun.
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Indeed.

It's difficult to ask fans to be happy for riders (& I'm sure Jumbo will show quite a lot of happiness when they get the podium sweep) if they haven't given anything to the fans to cheer for.

It's like those F1 races two decades ago when Barrichello would get his token win at the end of a season & Schumi was all smiles & laughter on the podium... after a race in which both Ferrari cars finished a lap ahead of everyone else.

That's what it feels like watching this.
 
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theyoungest

Jan 11, 2010
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Rackham said:
Who even cares about "who" the strongest is. Bike racing is about who crosses the line first, not who has the best numbers.

If there was a real, proper Rog versus Vinge GC battle, both riders would use their respective teams & strengths based on their own qualities. I could imagine Vinge dropping big attacks on the longest highest altitude climbs, whilst Rog would go hard on the punchier terrains. The point I'm making here is when teammates are 1, 2 & 3 in GC, it's not just about who the strongest is, it's also about who got the lucky roll of the dice. In this case it was Kuss.

But there was also another scenario where an echelon or split in the bunch happened & Vingegaard found himself ahead of both Kuss & Rog in GC, at which point he'd be the winner.

It could still happen as well. But we won't know who was really the strongest between the 3 of them because they're not going to directly battle each other.
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But as someone who thinks he should move to another team to try and win the Tour, don't you think a scenario like this is exactly what could make him win the Tour? If he's on any other team that's not going to happen. Only UAE could do something similar, but there (apparently) it's written in the contracts of Ayuso and Almeida that they never have to sacrifice themselves for Pogacar, so that complicates things. This leaves Jumbo as the only team where they can really play the game, something which Roglic can profit from.
 
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Rackham

Rackham

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theyoungest said:
But as someone who thinks he should move to another team to try and win the Tour, don't you think a scenario like this is exactly what could make him win the Tour? If he's on any other team that's not going to happen. Only UAE could do something similar, but there (apparently) it's written in the contracts of Ayuso and Almeida that they never have to sacrifice themselves for Pogacar, so that complicates things. This leaves Jumbo as the only team where they can really play the game, something which Roglic can profit from.
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I don't want to see Rog "gifted" a Tour de France, I want to see him fight the best & see where the chips fall. If he snuck into a breakaway & had a 3 minute lead in GC whilst a stronger teammate deliberately didn't attack him, no one would say "amazing job", they'd say "enjoy your gift".

Sepp Kuss gets the sympathy votes & the benefit of people saying he deserves this GC win in the Vuelta for all his prior work. Rog would get no such clemency.

So no, I'd prefer to see him fight & lose than accept a gift of such magnitude from his team, especially if we're talking about the biggest win of them all. His legacy would not benefit much from a TdF win unless he actually goes out there & wins it himself, with his own means & without team orders or teammates just handing him the win.
 
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Rackham

Rackham

Jul 16, 2015
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Red Rick said:
That is the point where you just don't care what other people think
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I get your point. It's just some of the best moments following this rider have been his tight battles against the odds. It's why that Giro win in May is pretty legendary IMO. If I was to post a hierarchy of Rog GT wins, it would be Giro > Vuelta 2020 > Vuelta 2021 > Vuelta 2019.

The hard fought battles are the sweetest. And the most hilarious gift he's ever received will forever be Movistar's in that aforementioned 2020 Vuelta. It's still funny 3 years later.
 
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Rackham

Rackham

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BTW, I'm not against the concept of sneaking a TdF win via an unusual lucky break against stronger riders. That would be epic (like an echelon or something).

But I don't believe a 'gift' from a teammate has as much value as winning the thing himself. I held the exact same line of thinking on the Van Aert-Laporte topic earlier this year, i.e. in my opinion Laporte should have refused WvA's gift that day. The offer was extremely fair play from WvA, but it takes two to tango & Laporte didn't have to say "yes".

He's strong enough to win races on his own as well. Ditto Rog.
 
K

kn0s

Jul 25, 2022
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Rackham said:
I don't want to see Rog "gifted" a Tour de France, I want to see him fight the best & see where the chips fall. If he snuck into a breakaway & had a 3 minute lead in GC whilst a stronger teammate deliberately didn't attack him, no one would say "amazing job", they'd say "enjoy your gift".

Sepp Kuss gets the sympathy votes & the benefit of people saying he deserves this GC win in the Vuelta for all his prior work. Rog would get no such clemency.

So no, I'd prefer to see him fight & lose than accept a gift of such magnitude from his team, especially if we're talking about the biggest win of them all. His legacy would not benefit much from a TdF win unless he actually goes out there & wins it himself, with his own means & without team orders or teammates just handing him the win.
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I actually think his best chance at the tour is at Jumbo (if they bring him). The way the parcours normally is at the tour, would bring him in second after Pogi at the start of the race. Now he doesn't have to worry to much about Jonas, compared to on another team. Then the team can be used to grind Pogi down like they normally do.

Fighting both Pogi and Jonas is hard to imagine, you have to cover MTF sprints and long-range attacks if you ever get in the lead. Roglic is s fine rider, but he has been to close to the likes of Adam Yeats this year, for me to think he has that extra level.
 
zlev11

zlev11

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Miha81 said:
Given the pace pelloton is riding I doubt he will crack. He looked very fresh and I think he is able to defend 3rd party attack. I doubt JV teammates will try to attack.
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yeah 2:37 to Ayuso is a nice gap for sure. It's just that he usually has a bad day even when he's just riding as a domestique (to be fair, he did not really have one at the Tour this year though). If it happens on Angliru he could be in trouble.
 
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Oldermanish

Jan 31, 2016
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kn0s said:
Agree completely. Also quite sure most of the excitement is gone. Hope other stuff happens, the Jumbo parade is no fun.
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IMO it's tactically a cool race because JV thought it through and have executed one of their options. The race isn't over and they have backup GC riders and that chafes on many. Too bad. They also didn't simply buy all of the talent you see doing well; they had faith and allowed them to develop. That other teams invested heavily in flavor of the month GT leaders, didn't provide adequate backup to help them succeed or just made mistakes on potential for riders is their problem. If they happen to be your favorite team or National origin it could add to the disappointment but accept it for now.
 
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Hugh Januss

Hugh Januss

Jul 9, 2009
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zlev11 said:
yeah 2:37 to Ayuso is a nice gap for sure. It's just that he usually has a bad day even when he's just riding as a domestique (to be fair, he did not really have one at the Tour this year though). If it happens on Angliru he could be in trouble.
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I don't think he has "bad days", I think prior to this year he has done his job and then backed off a bit with an eye on the next job. He might not be as strong/same type of climber as Vingo or Roglic but I think he is the equal of anyone else left in contention.
 
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kn0s

Jul 25, 2022
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Hugh Januss said:
I don't think he has "bad days", I think prior to this year he has done his job and then backed off a bit with an eye on the next job. He might not be as strong/same type of climber as Vingo or Roglic but I think he is the equal of anyone else left in contention.
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If you go back he most definitely had bad days. When interviewed about his GC possibilities, he always brought it up himself. This is how he ended up in the Dom role in the first place.

If he wins this Vuelta, thing might change for him. I actually hope so.
 
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cellardoor

cellardoor

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Kuss has been given his own chances in week long stage races in the past. I don't recall him having bad days in the sense of soloing to victory one day and then losing 3 minutes the next. I recall that his climbing ability just looked a bit 2nd-tier when he was riding for himself. and he'd typically miss the crucial moves. I suspect this is more of a confidence issue in the way that we see many doms under-perform when given leadership. It might be that being in the red jersey and having Rogic/Jonas as mentors has given him the confidence he needs to overcome the issues he had in the past.

I agree with the post above that mentions Jumbo would often decide to rest the likes of Kuss on days that they were not needed and this could give the appearance of having a bad day. Having said that, I'm sure there have been the odd few occasions where he genuinely has had a bad day, but then even the likes of Rogic and Pogacar have bad days sometimes.

What surprises me more than his consistent climbing so far is the final 1km sprint that he managed in the stage that Jonas won. That isn't something I was expecting and it looked almost Roglic-level of sprinting. Had Remco stayed in the GC race, I would have expected him to put time on Kuss in the dash to the line on various stages, but now I'm not even sure of that.
 
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theyoungest

Jan 11, 2010
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cellardoor said:
Kuss has been given his own chances in week long stage races in the past. I don't recall him having bad days in the sense of soloing to victory one day and then losing 3 minutes the next. I recall that his climbing ability just looked a bit 2nd-tier when he was riding for himself. and he'd typically miss the crucial moves. I suspect this is more of a confidence issue in the way that we see many doms under-perform when given leadership. It might be that being in the red jersey and having Rogic/Jonas as mentors has given him the confidence he needs to overcome the issues he had in the past.

I agree with the post above that mentions Jumbo would often decide to rest the likes of Kuss on days that they were not needed and this could give the appearance of having a bad day. Having said that, I'm sure there have been the odd few occasions where he genuinely has had a bad day, but then even the likes of Rogic and Pogacar have bad days sometimes.

What surprises me more than his consistent climbing so far is the final 1km sprint that he managed in the stage that Jonas won. That isn't something I was expecting and it looked almost Roglic-level of sprinting. Had Remco stayed in the GC race, I would have expected him to put time on Kuss in the dash to the line on various stages, but now I'm not even sure of that.
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It's maybe also the case that these one week stage races were during the spring, where traditionally Kuss still really needs to get going. This year's Giro was the first time that he managed to be really good relatively early (early being: before the summer). But generally I think he's just more suited to the grand tours, a race with one hard mountain stage and a time trial is of course never going to be ideal for him.
 
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CyclistAbi

May 29, 2019
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GT racing is always rather unpredictable. From initial expectation, for Rogla and Remco to fight it out, preferably for the final touches to happen on stage 20, it now looks like it's in between Kuss and Ayuso. Jonas i guess in both cases being a wildcard.

We'll see what will happen in week three. It's a GT so basically anything is still possible. One thing going against JV in my opinion is the idea they can do a podium sweep. In my opinion other teams won't let them achieve that.

Should be interesting week three. Looking forward to that.
 
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