Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[DNP-Old]

Vingegaard attacked super early on this climb. People might try to follow that if he was the only leader but you really don't wanna respond to that and risk blowing up when you have domestiques who can pace for you on the easier section can try to respond, fail and blow up

So you think that if the roles were reversed and Roglic is the one to attack at, what, 4.1km from the line, they wouldn't have responded either? Because I am convinced Ayuso and Mas would have been glued to that wheel.

 

[Rackham]

Why is it that riders do follow Roglic but not Vingegaard, is what I meant.

UAE want to split the Jumbo riders. That's their plan & it worked today.

They tried it on Saturday (attacking from far out) & here the option was to simply not chase Vingegaard & make Kuss lose time on his teammate (almost the jersey). I think people are being particularly obtuse due to the size of the gap. But when Fisher-Black finishes 20 seconds ahead of the Rog-Ayuso-Mas group, then some serious tactical mishap has happened.

 

[Gargamel35]

I guess JV is Jonas team and everybody else are doms. Kuss had to realize today he has zero support from JV management to win Vuelta, Roglič got played into "wait for Jonas to attack and you can follow later" and Jonas looks like he'll take all JV help he can get to win and show some tears because he's not winning for himself but for others. He'll get a nice free pass every time to attack and Kuss/Rog need to sit and take it. Other riders are useless anyway. I'm sure Jonas is capable of saying he won Vuelta for his wife, daughter, Hooy, Kuss and Roglič. For family. Go to hell.

 

[Valv.Piti]

So you think that if the roles were reversed and Roglic is the one to attack at, what, 4.1km from the line, they wouldn't have responded either? Because I am convinced Ayuso and Mas would have been glued to that wheel.

The thing is, Vingegaard actually attacks. This version of Primoz is 2009 Valverde Vuelta which easily could win had the circumstances been a bit different (Vingegaard not riding, basically).

 

[KZD]

So JVT's DS & Management already decided who's winning La Vuelta, despite the fact that Roglic was the outright Leader prior to the race..... before Vinge opted for the double...
At least Roglic won Il Giro ....

Vingegård was already planned to ride the Vuelta since the end of last year so Roglič was not the ouright leader ahead of the race.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Vineggard is just better than roglic and sep kuss

 

[DNP-Old]

The thing is, Vingegaard actually attacks. This version of Primoz is 2009 Valverde Vuelta which easily could win had the circumstances been a bit different (Vingegaard not riding, basically).

Precisely. I'm just trying to end this narrative of Vingegaard getting gifted time, when the more realistic scenario is the competition doesn't care for Vingegaard because they recognise that he is too good and in order to get to the podium, Roglic is the one they ought to get rid of.

Mas and Ayuso are aware that Jumbo is going to win la Vuelta. Question is just with who. They are putting their chips on Roglic not being that who, and I would look at this as the best bet.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

So you think that if the roles were reversed and Roglic is the one to attack at, what, 4.1km from the line, they wouldn't have responded either? Because I am convinced Ayuso and Mas would have been glued to that wheel.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Vingo attacked today and won. I think he felt the best from JV guys and that's why JV decided on this option. Why wasn't he marked? Maybe other guys don't think they can match him, he was strong today. Or maybe they just cover the 2nd guy as JV has too many options so covering the 1st may be risky!

 

[Red Rick]

So you think that if the roles were reversed and Roglic is the one to attack at, what, 4.1km from the line, they wouldn't have responded either? Because I am convinced Ayuso and Mas would have been glued to that wheel.

Think it's fairly likely they wouldn't try.

Vingegaard was the first wheel behing Valter, he attacked out of a steep corner, so being 3 wheels back and in wrong position is just extra time you're back. Ayuso always does his own pace anyway.

Frigging Fischer Black was dangling on 8 seconds until 2km to go. The attack in itself was not crazy hard or anything.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Vingegaard would obviously not have gained that much time, if there had been a better chase behind, but he wasn't exactly sprinting to the line either, so he might also have been able to ride faster if needed.

If Roglič has the legs, then he should be allowed to attack early tomorrow, and then we'll see if he can get a proper gap or not.

 

[Rackham]

The plan was to go for the win with Rog: https://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/s...dverlies-angliru-is-een-totaal-ander-verhaal/

Apparently that changed when Vinge asked the team over the radio if he could attack just before the steep part. Looks to me like Rog got screwed there because this isn't a matter of something decided on the team bus before the race.

 

[SHAD0W93]

I wonder how the race unfolds without Vinge being present. I don’t think Jumbo would have ridden as hard and instead go to set up the stomps for Roglic and Evenepoel is still most likely in the mix. Vinge announcing he was coming always threw a damper in Roglic’s chances, especially if he had good to great form. Unfortunately Roglic wasn’t able to gain enough time on Vinge in the first week and it could all be coming back. I am sure the overarching team doesn’t care who wins as long as the team wins, but Roglic would absolutely want himself or Kuss to win. Maybe even someone else before Vinge since if Vinge wins there is no way he’s getting any leadership status when they line up together. If they stay on the same team it could boil into a GC version of the Cav and Greipel HTC beef.

 

[Rackham]

Vingegaard would obviously not have gained that much time, if there had been a better chase behind, but he wasn't exactly sprinting to the line either, so he might also have been able to ride faster if needed.

If Roglič has the legs, then he should be allowed to attack early tomorrow, and then we'll see if he can get a proper gap or not.

I feel this is moving the goalposts to a point where Rog isn't competing on fair terms based on his own skillset. Rog likes a fast tempo on a climb & then a skirmish between the favorites who all fight to the line.

Today, he had no teammates to pull him whatsoever & he couldn't immediately jump on Vingegaard's wheel either (which increasingly looks like a surprise attack which wasn't discussed beforehand).

So it's like after 4 GT victories & 78 career wins, I'm now reading that in order to prove he can win, he should go against his nature & own talents... in launching a long ranger. It's also immaterial because it's highly dependent on the chase. Today, UAE didn't chase. If Rog attacks & Mas + Ayuso just sit up & watch him go, he gets a gap as well.

 

[Miha81]

The plan was to go for the win with Rog: https://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/s...dverlies-angliru-is-een-totaal-ander-verhaal/

Apparently that changed when Vinge asked the team over the radio if he could attack just before the steep part. Looks to me like Rog got screwed there because this isn't a matter of something decided on the team bus before the race.

I wonder if fisherman will go for a win tomorrow and gift it to Kuss on his birthday

Anyway if Rogla does not have legs it will be evident soon.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I feel this is moving the goalposts to a point where Rog isn't competing on fair terms based on his own skillset. Rog likes a fast tempo on a climb & then a skirmish between the favorites who all fight to the line.

Today, he had no teammates to pull him whatsoever & he couldn't immediately jump on Vingegaard's wheel either (which increasingly looks like a surprise attack which wasn't discussed beforehand).

So it's like after 4 GT victories & 78 career wins, I'm now reading that in order to prove he can win, he should go against his nature & own talents... in launching a long ranger. It's also immaterial because it's highly dependent on the chase. Today, UAE didn't chase. If Rog attacks & Mas + Ayuso just sit up & watch him go, he gets a gap as well.

Tomorrow on the bottom of Angliru Rogla will say "F**k you, Grischa. I'll show the world who's the strongest".

 

[Rackham]

Tomorrow on the bottom of Angliru Rogla will say "F**k you, Grischa. I'll show the world who's the strongest".

When Evenepoel attacks tomorrow, Rog should jump on his wheel. Make Jumbo chase behind just to show their colors.

 

[Oldermanish]

Vineggard is just better than roglic and sep kuss

Tomorrow will be the first definitive chapter. Hate to say it but Kuss may lose early if UAE gets someone up the road and Primoz's only choice is to pursue. Jonas' two stage winning attacks were all at his pace. In each case the only riders that made inroads into his gap were teammates and they had a plan to get him the stage. Tomorrow will be best man up.

 

[Red Rick]

When Evenepoel attacks tomorrow, Rog should jump on his wheel. Make Jumbo chase behind just to show their colors.

Hear me out.

Cordal attack

If UAE chase, I get my pitchfork out

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I feel this is moving the goalposts to a point where Rog isn't competing on fair terms based on his own skillset. Rog likes a fast tempo on a climb & then a skirmish between the favorites who all fight to the line.

Today, he had no teammates to pull him whatsoever & he couldn't immediately jump on Vingegaard's wheel either (which increasingly looks like a surprise attack which wasn't discussed beforehand).

So it's like after 4 GT victories & 78 career wins, I'm now reading that in order to prove he can win, he should go against his nature & own talents... in launching a long ranger. It's also immaterial because it's highly dependent on the chase. Today, UAE didn't chase. If Rog attacks & Mas + Ayuso just sit up & watch him go, he gets a gap as well.

I'm not saying he isn't a winner, only that in order to win this race particular race from the current situation he's in, he's probably not going to achieve it by being paced up the climb by the team. Kuss and Vingegaard have succesfully attacked the other favourites, so it would only be fair to give Roglič the chance now. He's been held back on the last few stages, but you shouldn't keep doing that to such a big champion, jsut like they haven't done with Vingegaard.

 

[Rackham]

I'm not saying he isn't a winner, only that in order to win this race particular race from the current situation he's in, he's probably not going to achieve it by being paced up the climb by the team. Kuss and Vingegaard have succesfully attacked the other favourites, so it would only be fair to give Roglič the chance now. He's been held back on the last few stages, but you shouldn't keep doing that to such a big champion, jsut like they haven't done with Vingegaard.

If the team tells the riders they can fight, then I have no problem with one of them winning over Rog. But I do have a problem with a rider (especially of Vingegaard's level) jumping away like that (by surprise apparently) whilst neither Kuss nor Rog can chase their own teammate when he attacks... & none of their other teammates do either (for obvious reasons). If they're on different teams, Rog jumps immediately & covers way better than Fisher-Black did because Ayuso & Mas also jump with him. Rog's own final km burst means he doesn't care when riders come back after an attack (a bit like Moncalvillo versus Carapaz 3 years ago), because he can always win with his punch.

Today wasn't a fair fight and the time gap (over a minute) wasn't representative of their respective levels. Vingegaard benefitted from his main rivals being his own teammates & the fact UAE just let him ride up the road.

Add Vingegaard's crazy high level on top of this tactical dead-end & there we have it, Vuelta probably lost (for both Rog & Kuss as well).

 

[Tim Cahill]

Here we go, it's on. I for one am waiting for the opinions of Cath Wiggins on todays events.

 

[bNator]

Quite mediocre today, and even riding against Sepp and Jonas.

Well everyone in that team is riding against everyone this. A bit hypocritical to hold it against him and not mention Vinge, for instance. Who attacked his teammate in red(!!)

 

[Krzysztof_O]

If the team tells the riders they can fight, then I have no problem with one of them winning over Rog. But I do have a problem with a rider (especially of Vingegaard's level) jumping away like that (by surprise apparently) whilst neither Kuss nor Rog can chase their own teammate when he attacks... & none of their other teammates do either (for obvious reasons). If they're on different teams, Rog jumps immediately & covers way better than Fisher-Black did because Ayuso & Mas also jump with him. Rog's own final km burst means he doesn't care when riders come back after an attack (a bit like Moncalvillo versus Carapaz 3 years ago), because he can always win with his punch.

Today wasn't a fair fight and the time gap (over a minute) wasn't representative of their respective levels. Vingegaard benefitted from his main rivals being his own teammates & the fact UAE just let him ride up the road.

Add Vingegaard's crazy high level on top of this tactical dead-end & there we have it, Vuelta probably lost (for both Rog & Kuss as well).

I think they all will have green light to ride for themselves tomorrow. I'm not sure about today but maybe it was Jonas who felt the strongest so JV decided to let him go.

 

[Rackham]

I think they all will have green light to ride for themselves tomorrow. I'm not sure about today but maybe it was Jonas who felt the strongest so JV decided to let him go.

They'd better. In any case it looks like Mrs. Rog could be whispering some stuff into his ear tonight or tomorrow morning (based on her insta likes).

Gloves are off. Let there be a battle. I want to see Evenepoel play a key role in this fight as well, i.e. with his aggressive riding style & passionate fanbase getting into the middle of an intra-Jumbo feud, this Vuelta could still have some life left in it.

 

[svit]

I bet JV didn't allow Roglic attack on Tourmalett and I bet tomorrow they will not allow Roglic to attack on Angliru. Tomorrow they will neutralize the stage and they will cross the finish line together.

And if something (god forbid) happens (mechanical problems) to Vingegaard, they will wait for him...

JV wants Vingegaard to be in red in Madrid.