Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Red Rick]

Actually, Roglic simply didn't follow Pogacar and instead stayed on Quintana's wheel, while Quintana was concerned with Roglic. Roglic even said afterward something to the effect of "why should I be the one to chase another Slovenian?" He probably wouldn't have stayed with Pogacar but wouldn't have lost that much time either.

Makes it just worse for me.

 

[MLKarlos]

Maybe. Maybe not. But the point I was making is Jumbo has made tactical blunders before when trying to implement their 'win together' motto with a "we really need xyz rider to win this stage for political reasons" instead of looking at the bigger picture. Stage 7 of the TdF was one of them.



Pellizzari is apparently off the Itzulia start list. Things are changing in his program:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1907434092427112629

View: https://x.com/biciPRO1/status/1907434092427112629


He's going back to Teide next week.

Interesting!

Maybe Roglic also liked to have Giulio on his side.

btw.: How much power has the leader when it comes to the lineup for a GT? Can he say: I want this and that guy on my side?

 

[tobydawq]

That's the point. Stick WvA on the front after the echelon and Pog loses even more time. But Jumbo wanted the stage.

This is extremely captain hindsight-cap wearing behaviour. There was simply no way of knowing that Pog would prove to be as formidable an opponent as he ended up being at that point of the race.

 

[tobydawq]

My biggest gripe is the last mountain stage. Locked it down rather than sending Van Aert up the road and go for the kill.

Yeah, Roglic even had a gap to Pogacar after the gravel part (imagine explaining that to someone today) of the Glières but then decided that "nah, no reason to try to keep that up" and then he just waited for the others.

 

[Rackham]

This is extremely captain hindsight-cap wearing behaviour. There was simply no way of knowing that Pog would prove to be as formidable an opponent as he ended up being at that point of the race.

Maybe. But he was still third in the Vuelta a year earlier. And he was 4th in the Dauphiné. Pog wasn't some unknown.

 

[tobydawq]

Maybe. But he was still third in the Vuelta a year earlier. And he was 4th in the Dauphiné. Pog wasn't some unknown.

No, but it would have seemed idiotic for Wout to sacrifice himself on that stage because Pogacar had been distanced - especially because the peloton went really fast anyway.

 

[Rackham]

No, but it would have seemed idiotic for Wout to sacrifice himself on that stage because Pogacar had been distanced - especially because the peloton went really fast anyway.

Imagine if Rog was Belgian and WvA was Slovenian. Imagine what the media would have said and how people would react.

I mean... I'm all for a fair appraisal of races (especially that TdF in particular that had many unfortunate events before and during) but this very notion that WvA's stage wins were a priority for Jumbo was something that plagued the team in ensuing TdF's as well (see the fateful stage 3 of the 2021 TdF).

And yes, that's exactly what happened in Dwars yesterday and it blew up in their face. I like WvA and it's obviously not his fault. But Jumbo's 'winning together' motto occasionally became 'win with the most politically convenient rider'.

 

[Gargamel35]

Imagine if Rog was Belgian and WvA was Slovenian. Imagine what the media would have said and how people would react.

I mean... I'm all for a fair appraisal of races (especially that TdF in particular that had many unfortunate events before and during) but this very notion that WvA's stage wins were a priority for Jumbo was something that plagued the team in ensuing TdF's as well (see the fateful stage 3 of the 2021 TdF).

And yes, that's exactly what happened in Dwars yesterday and it blew up in their face. I like WvA and it's obviously not his fault. But Jumbo's 'winning together' motto occasionally became 'win with the most politically convenient rider'.

Days ago Wout wanted to win in a sprint. It was his call. Jumbo honored his wish. Wout got a lot of calls his way in last 5+ years in that team. And didn't really deliver.

 

[Netserk]

No, but it would have seemed idiotic for Wout to sacrifice himself on that stage because Pogacar had been distanced - especially because the peloton went really fast anyway.

GC comes first, just like it should have towards Calais.

 

[tobydawq]

GC comes first, just like it should have towards Calais.

In 2022, they literally had a stated objective of going for both green and yellow.

And you can't look at it that simply because they also wanted to have Wout for the spring classics and if he wouldn't get his chances in the Tour, he likely wouldn't have stayed with the team. But yes, he could perhaps have waited for Vingegaard in that particular instance.

In the 2020 S7, he absolutely should not have been on the front of the peloton.

 

[Netserk]

Yellow trumps green when there's a conflict. That's always the case on cobbles, and should be in crosswinds as well.

 

[tobydawq]

Yellow trumps green when there's a conflict. That's always the case on cobbles, and should be in crosswinds as well.

But there wasn't a conflict.

 

[Rackham]

Days ago Wout wanted to win in a sprint. It was his call. Jumbo honored his wish. Wout got a lot of calls his way in last 5+ years in that team. And didn't really deliver.

I was curious to see how the media was going to react this morning and it looks like everyone (or at least most) are being super kind to Van Aert. Now I don't have a problem with that, i.e. it would be sh*t to beat up on a rider after a mistake he owned up to, but imagine for one second if Rog had done that yesterday? Jesus, if Chris Horner labelled him a 'dirtbag' after the Angliru in the Vuelta 2023 just imagine how hard they'd have fallen on him if he'd pulled a stunt like WvA did.

There's even a somewhat ironic and funny quote from Van Aert himself dating back to September 2023 regarding that Vuelta and the issues the team faced: https://www.wielerkrant.be/nieuws/2...ic-terecht-dat-was-niet-het-meest-verstandige

"Primoz heeft natuurlijk die achtergrond als individuele sporter en soms komt dat nog eens terug", zegt Van Aert. "Maar het voornaamste is de manier waarop ze het uiteindelijk hebben weten af te ronden."

"Primoz of course has that background as an individual athlete and sometimes that comes back," says Van Aert. "But the most important thing is the way they managed to finish it in the end."

I guess we could say WvA fancied a taste of that sweet 'individual' sport yesterday.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I guess I have to say I don’t understand the Wout hate, or why that seems to be en vogue among Roglic fans. I guess because Wout sacrificed so much for Jonas to win the Tour? IMO, Wout is a big hearted guy, highly competitive, similar to Roglic. He’s happy for his teammates and will support them when it makes sense, but he also deeply wants to win. I see no issue with that personally. He’s made some big sacrifices, he’s also demanded the right to go for the win and failed to execute. Then again, Roglic left Visma because he wanted to always go for the win, even if he was riding with the returning Tour champion and that guy was (almost certainly) putting out better numbers in training and certainly in races. I’m a huge Roglic fan, so this isn’t criticism of Roglic; it’s just an expression of confusion at the Wout hate.

 

[Berniece]

I guess I have to say I don’t understand the Wout hate, or why that seems to be en vogue among Roglic fans. I guess because Wout sacrificed so much for Jonas to win the Tour? IMO, Wout is a big hearted guy, highly competitive, similar to Roglic. He’s happy for his teammates and will support them when it makes sense, but he also deeply wants to win. I see no issue with that personally. He’s made some big sacrifices, he’s also demanded the right to go for the win and failed to execute. Then again, Roglic left Visma because he wanted to always go for the win, even if he was riding with the returning Tour champion and that guy was (almost certainly) putting out better numbers in training and certainly in races. I’m a huge Roglic fan, so this isn’t criticism of Roglic; it’s just an expression of confusion at the Wout hate.

He even single handedly saved Roglic's Paris-Nice win, so they really shouldn't complain.

 

[Rackham]

I guess I have to say I don’t understand the Wout hate, or why that seems to be en vogue among Roglic fans. I guess because Wout sacrificed so much for Jonas to win the Tour? IMO, Wout is a big hearted guy, highly competitive, similar to Roglic. He’s happy for his teammates and will support them when it makes sense, but he also deeply wants to win. I see no issue with that personally. He’s made some big sacrifices, he’s also demanded the right to go for the win and failed to execute. Then again, Roglic left Visma because he wanted to always go for the win, even if he was riding with the returning Tour champion and that guy was (almost certainly) putting out better numbers in training and certainly in races. I’m a huge Roglic fan, so this isn’t criticism of Roglic; it’s just an expression of confusion at the Wout hate.

I don't see 'Wout hate' here. Certainly not from me.

It's a mischaracterization to label my post as such (if that was indeed what prompted your post here).

If anyone deserve criticism it's Visma. The performance staff are a bunch of cyborgs obsessed with data and forget the human factor. They're also prone to inserting 'politically convenient' decisions into their team selections and race tactics. Stuff like naming Tom Dumoulin co-captain in the 2020 Vuelta, i.e. which backfired again when Rog showed he had better legs in the first week and Dumoulin quit.

I mean as a Rog fan I kinda got pretty much acquainted over the years with the humdrum mistakes of Visma's behind the scenes crew made up of ex-riders and staff who were by and large never champions themselves.

Aka dealing with champs like Van Aert and Rog was never as simple as looking at a spreadsheet of numbers. These riders are human. Not robots.

 

[Netserk]

He even single handedly saved Roglic's Paris-Nice win, so they really shouldn't complain.

And Tratnik saved Vingegaard on the gravel with the bike change. Because that was his job. It's completely normal for a team that can win a race to go all-in for the overall victory.

Same season, Rogla rode while injured for Vingegaard in both Itzulia and the Tour.

 

[Berniece]

And Tratnik saved Vingegaard on the gravel with the bike change. Because that was his job. It's completely normal for a team that can win a race to go all-in for the overall victory.

Sure, but is there a reason to complain in case of Roglic when it comes to WVA? Putting the blame of his lost TDF victory on WVA is a bit silly. There were more mistakes made, AND this is all decided by the team so I don't even understand why WVA should be blamed.

 

[Netserk]

Sure, but is there a reason to complain in case of Roglic when it comes to WVA? Putting the blame of his lost TDF victory on WVA is a bit silly. There were more mistakes made, AND this is all decided by the team so I don't even understand why WVA should be blamed.

Whether it's because Van Aert demands too much or the car is too accommodating of him, he is the source of the team not riding all-in for the overall victory of multiple races. Like yesterday.

 

[Berniece]

Whether it's because Van Aert demands too much or the car is too accommodating of him, he is the source of the team not riding all-in for the overall victory of multiple races. Like yesterday.

Because the team is arrogant in thinking they can win it all. Not sure why that's his personal fault. The team then shouldn't have taken him to the TDF. But then they wouldn't have won those 9 stages in amazing ways.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

WVA is one of the most selfish riders i've ever seen

I don't see 'Wout hate' here. Certainly not from me.

It's a mischaracterization to label my post as such (if that was indeed what prompted your post here).

If anyone deserve criticism it's Visma. The performance staff are a bunch of cyborgs obsessed with data and forget the human factor. They're also prone to inserting 'politically convenient' decisions into their team selections and race tactics. Stuff like naming Tom Dumoulin co-captain in the 2020 Vuelta, i.e. which backfired again when Rog showed he had better legs in the first week and Dumoulin quit.

I mean as a Rog fan I kinda got pretty much acquainted over the years with the humdrum mistakes of Visma's behind the scenes crew made up of ex-riders and staff who were by and large never champions themselves.

Aka dealing with champs like Van Aert and Rog was never as simple as looking at a spreadsheet of numbers. These riders are human. Not robots.

Not explicitly directed at you. You seem to be blaming the team, not the rider. I quoted one that jumped out. Probably an unfair characterization conflating some of what I saw in the race thread and Wout threads with what I saw here.

 

[Red Rick]

To be honest I think the "Van Aert deserves leadership in the Tour" to be the most *** tiring storyline of all.

Greater riders than him got less leeway at the Tour de France.

 

[Gargamel35]

I don't see that champion named Wout van Art, sorry. He's a very good rider that brings home mostly second places. Yes, he did win stages already and one day races, but so did many others and no one is calling them champions.

He's one of the most overrated riders there is.

 

[CyclistAbi]

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Last year's winner to start with.

Moving this discussion over to the proper thread, we've polluted the Nys one enough now.

It just isn't really comparable. For Roglic, Flèche is the easiest classic to win of the entire spring. For Pogacar, it is like the tenth-easiest. Also, Pogacar did Strade, Sanremo and Liège that year, that's three times as many spring classics as Roglic has raced in four years. Finally, Pogacar had already ticked Flèche off his list whereas Roglic hasn't. So Pogacar had more than his fair share of good reasons to skip Flèche last year, whereas I don't think Roglic did either in 2023 or now.