Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Gargamel35]

Majority of people feel he crashes more than others. If you want to say those people are wrong, feel free to come up with a list, or stop saying the majority is wrong.

Who are majority? I don't see it. Couple people feel, he crashes more than others and are very vocal about it, but that's it. I think proving that is on you.

 

[Berniece]

Who are majority? I don't see it. Couple people feel, he crashes more than others and are very vocal about it, but that's it. I think proving that is on you.

Sure, that's why Red Rick is complaining about it the whole time. It's clearly a touchy subject for you guys.

 

[CyclistAbi]

It was you who brought up the topic.

Sure, and provided proof. I did my part.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Sure, that's why Red Rick is complaining about it the whole time. It's clearly a touchy subject for you guys.

Nah, it's not touchy at all. It's the same for other riders too. Some excessive ageism and excessive gloating on crashes, targeting an individual rider, here we draw a line.

 

[Rackham]

You know, Roglič always had two particularities that stacked the odds against him: non-cycling background and he's from a smaller country outside of the traditional 'cycling bubble'.

It means there isn't the 'lobby' in his favor in the mainstream media. Or any media, basically. Not just when things go wrong but also during races. Like on the benign side of things whenever he's riding the Vuelta there's always Alberto Contador telling everyone 'why' this is the year Enric Mas is going to beat him and offering in-depth analysis detailing his findings.

Or like in the Tour of Catalunya back in March, when Ayuso beat him in the first MTF, Marca's headline featured a quasi photoshopped image of Ayuso triumphantly crossing the line alone with no one else near him (despite the fact it was a two man sprint).

That sort of stuff. So you can imagine what happens when he loses or DNF's from a crash. I've also got distinct memories of Michael Rasmussen and the Danish influencers calling for Rog to ride for Vingegaard before the 2022 TdF even started. So yeah in a way the rather 'eclectic' group of Rog fans kind of fight back against all of this.

 

[AmRacer]

Sure, and provided proof. I did my part.

You didn't provide any proof.

 

[AmRacer]

Nah, it's not touchy at all. It's the same for other riders too. Some excessive ageism and excessive gloating on crashes, targeting an individual rider, here we draw a line.

Who are we? You and yours?

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Pogacar -> everyone bows down to the overlord.

Vingegaard ->> haha fish factory boy doesn't race enough

Evenepoel ->> ragequits a monument but barely anyone questions the excuses

Van der Poel ->> Basically the son of God himself over here, and when he crashes in RVV because he decided to sit in 400th position where he shouldn't be nobody cares, nor does anyone care about going a full 4/4 in first lap DNFs in MTB

Van Aert ->> when he crashes heavily he's the poorest boi out there. He's also too precious to do any domestique work for anyone and the only pressure he does get is he gets called washed quickly. Mostly his team gets the blame half the time

Pedersen ->> Calls everyone around him stupid while riding like he's allergic to neurons

The only rider who's anywhere close to getting the same amount of *** for dumb reasons is Ayuso at the moment.

I am spiritually aligned with you and my fellow Roglic fans, but I also always strive for objectivity, so I feel compelled to say:

• Remco gets a whole lot of *** all the time for his handling, descending, and impetuous combustibility
• Vingegaard got a whole lot of ***, too, but winning the Tour twice in a row has a way of turning down the nouse
• The reason Roglic and Remco get the most *** is because, as someone else said, their palmares are the most clearly impacted by crashes. It's like how Morgan Wallen might throw a chair off a 4-story bar, but if no one gets hurt it blows over pretty quickly. Someone gets killed and it looks very different. Similarly, Pogacar has had several rider errors that results in very little impact. He's produced a couple of the greatest tours of all time despite that. Vingegaard at times looks like a child out there (the gravel stage cluster in 2022 in particular), but he's won the Tour twice. Roglic, on the other hand, as great as he and his palmares are, has very clearly lost major chances almost every single season due to crashes. I don't want to spark this same argument again, but he could have (not would have) won the 2020, 2021, and 2022 Tours if not for crashes. And then 2022 Vuelta. And the 2025 Giro. And that's not even mentioning the 2024 Tour he crashed out of, since he wasn't going to win it. Remco, too, has had very real setbacks as a result of crashes.
• As a contrast, Bernal had one very real crash that almost ruined his career, and he does crash, including in this Giro, but I'm not sure anyone can point to a single GT that he directly lost because of a crash. And our brains attach consequence to action, right or wrong.

 

[Gargamel35]

Sure, that's why Red Rick is complaining about it the whole time. It's clearly a touchy subject for you guys.

He's complaining because one of those "couple fans" always comes here gloating when Rog crashes. Like i said. There aren't many, but boy are they loud. Real fans for sure. Others crash too, but no one cares. I guess haters gonna hate and they have nothing else to do, then speed up here to tell everybody how Rog started a crash fest. Why do you care so much?

 

[CyclistAbi]

I am spiritually aligned with you and my fellow Roglic fans, but I also always strive for objectivity, so I feel compelled to say:

• Remco gets a whole lot of *** all the time for his handling, descending, and impetuous combustibility
• Vingegaard got a whole lot of ***, too, but winning the Tour twice in a row has a way of turning down the nouse
• The reason Roglic and Remco get the most *** is because, as someone else said, their palmares are the most clearly impacted by crashes. It's like how Morgan Wallen might throw a chair off a 4-story bar, but if no one gets hurt it blows over pretty quickly. Someone gets killed and it looks very different. Similarly, Pogacar has had several rider errors that results in very little impact. He's produced a couple of the greatest tours of all time despite that. Vingegaard at times looks like a child out there (the gravel stage cluster in 2022 in particular), but he's won the Tour twice. Roglic, on the other hand, as great as he and his palmares are, has very clearly lost major chances almost every single season due to crashes. I don't want to spark this same argument again, but he could have (not would have) won the 2020, 2021, and 2022 Tours if not for crashes. And then 2022 Vuelta. And the 2025 Giro. And that's not even mentioning the 2024 Tour he crashed out of, since he wasn't going to win it. Remco, too, has had very real setbacks as a result of crashes.
• As a contrast, Bernal had one very real crash that almost ruined his career, and he does crash, including in this Giro, but I'm not sure anyone can point to a single GT that he directly lost because of a crash. And our brains attach consequence to action, right or wrong.

Reading this list, all indeed do seem to crash a whole lot. But i must say that i do occasionally read the threads from the mentioned cyclists, and no way am i seeing that amount of crash talk in them, compared to Rogličes thread.

 

[Gargamel35]

I am spiritually aligned with you and my fellow Roglic fans, but I also always strive for objectivity, so I feel compelled to say:

• Remco gets a whole lot of *** all the time for his handling, descending, and impetuous combustibility
• Vingegaard got a whole lot of ***, too, but winning the Tour twice in a row has a way of turning down the nouse
• The reason Roglic and Remco get the most *** is because, as someone else said, their palmares are the most clearly impacted by crashes. It's like how Morgan Wallen might throw a chair off a 4-story bar, but if no one gets hurt it blows over pretty quickly. Someone gets killed and it looks very different. Similarly, Pogacar has had several rider errors that results in very little impact. He's produced a couple of the greatest tours of all time despite that. Vingegaard at times looks like a child out there (the gravel stage cluster in 2022 in particular), but he's won the Tour twice. Roglic, on the other hand, as great as he and his palmares are, has very clearly lost major chances almost every single season due to crashes. I don't want to spark this same argument again, but he could have (not would have) won the 2020, 2021, and 2022 Tours if not for crashes. And then 2022 Vuelta. And the 2025 Giro. And that's not even mentioning the 2024 Tour he crashed out of, since he wasn't going to win it. Remco, too, has had very real setbacks as a result of crashes.
• As a contrast, Bernal had one very real crash that almost ruined his career, and he does crash, including in this Giro, but I'm not sure anyone can point to a single GT that he directly lost because of a crash. And our brains attach consequence to action, right or wrong.

No one cares if Bernal crashes, because he wouldn't win anything anyway. That's the difference.
Roglič is basically always in the mix for top 3 places, mostly even for wins. So naturally him crashing reduces these chances a lot and everybody start gloating about it. Most other riders are also crashing a lot, but are not in a winning position when they are doing it so people look away or don't even notice.

How many GC riders are getting top 3 spots constantly and are in a mix for wins all the time? Not many.

Of other riders in GC that are mostly in a position to win and actually don't crash that much (compared to Rog) are Pog (does crash but was also lucky and is a very good single rider) and Vinge (huge crash last year). Both also had their share of crashes but didn't compete in as many GTs yet too so number is lower. Wait for them to get older and count Then you have Remco who also crashes a lot and also didn't compete in as many GTs. MvP doesn't count, he's not really riding GTs, yet he crashes a lot.

 

[AmRacer]

Reading this list, all indeed do seem to crash a whole lot. But i must say that i do occasionally read the threads from the mentioned cyclists, and no way am i seeing that amount of crash talk in them, compared to Rogličes thread.

Only Roglic has someone defending his crashes.

 

[Berniece]

He's complaining because one of those "couple fans" always comes here gloating when Rog crashes. Like i said. There aren't many, but boy are they loud. Real fans for sure. Others crash too, but no one cares. I guess haters gonna hate and they have nothing else to do, then speed up here to tell everybody how Rog started a crash fest. Why do you care so much?

Care about what?

 

[AmRacer]

No one cares if Bernal crashes, because he wouldn't win anything anyway. That's the difference.
Roglič is basically always in the mix for top 3 places, mostly even for wins. So naturally him crashing reduces these chances a lot and everybody start gloating about it. Most other riders are also crashing a lot, but are not in a winning position when they are doing it so people look away or don't even notice.

How many GC riders are getting top 3 spots constantly and are in a mix for wins all the time? Not many.

Of other riders in GC that are mostly in a position to win and actually don't crash that much (compared to Rog) are Pog (does crash but was also lucky and is a very good single rider) and Vinge (huge crash last year). Both also had their share of crashes but didn't compete in as many GTs yet too so number is lower. Wait for them to get older and count Then you have Remco who also crashes a lot and also didn't compete in as many GTs. MvP doesn't count, he's not really riding GTs, yet he crashes a lot.

When Roglic crashes out of one GT, he goes on to the next one. Since Pogi doesn't crash out of GT, he won't start the following one.

 

[Gargamel35]

When Roglic crashes out of one GT, he goes on to the next one. Since Pogi doesn't crash out of GT, he won't start the following one.

Pog did Giro - Tour last year. Vinge crashed (funny ah?) out of the season, limped in TdF and stopped racing. This year Vinge is doing Tour - Vuelta double, Pog probably too. So they go to another GT even if they didn't crash in the first one.

 

[CyclistAbi]

The real problem IMHO would be, imagine, if Rogla wouldn't crash or age. How would we be able to explain that one, considering all others do crash a whole lot and indeed do age.

True conundrum.

 

[AmRacer]

The real problem IMHO would be, imagine, if Rogla wouldn't crash or age. How would we be able to explain that one, considering all others do crash a whole lot and indeed do age.

True conundrum.

Who is all others

 

[Rackham]

Too much talk about crashing IMO and not the actual small details that made a difference. Red Bull have a very weak team here. Now maybe the crash that resulted in Hindley's DNF played a huge role (Tratnik went down pretty hard) but when we see the sort of power UAE and Visma have, then Red Bull Bora is evidently a step below. That's the first part of the Giro equation that was way off. Rog was alone on the gravel stage when he went down in the main bunch and Pellizzari wasn't even with him at that point.

So it's like people yap yap yap about crashes but there's lots of other things going on with Rog's season right now. And this pertains to the TdF as well because looking at the names rumored to be on the list, there's no way in hell they'll be able to go toe-to-toe with the big teams - not just in mountain stages but also obviously on the flat as well in key high stress moments.

 

[zlev11]

The Australian guy Hamilton, who was at the head of the peleton with his team coming into the gravel sector. All riders make mistakes and crash because of their errors. Finally, stop making up false narratives and abusing riders.

lol cmon, abuse? its ok when Roglic gets "abused" though. honestly, it's fine. they're big boys and they probably aren't reading these posts anyway.

you know who used to crash a lot? especially after his ban? Contador. almost as much as Roglic has. and nobody was calling him a bad bike rider.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@James M

You are a bit late to the party, please just reread last two pages, you basically can't add anything new to it, citing age and crashing, we done it all.

@Rackham

Yeah, we had to address the usual suspects first, ageism and gloating over crashes. It's just a pure shitstorm in this regards, whenever Rogla sneezes. For example van der Poel lost a race and broke his wrist, if i read correctly, and nobody is bitching about it in his thread.


Now that that is out of the way and in regards to building up for the Tour. It's rather obvious, that the team kept the powder dry, till the week three. I feel that that was a sensible strategy selected in regards to this GT. Positioning did suffer because of it, from time to time, at times it was stellar. Overall my perception is the team is growing. For Rogla, i feel he was in good form to contend for the overall. Maybe when they wanted to loan out the jersey, maybe that should have been done in a more natural and relaxed way, regardless if they kept it for one more day or not. Stomp is in my opinion still there it's just that the right opportunity didn't emerge and this is sensible strategy for the Tour too. Stomp at all costs is just too costly. ITTs, both stellar, unfortunately we didn't get to see Rogla the climber, this gem reserved for the Tour. Aliens will hit hard and hit early, surviving, after Rogla will do the talking! Looking forward to it.

Just read an article in local media, journalists opinion. In the title the journalist asking can Rogla win the Tour. No question mark in the title and the answer already provided, by journalist, No. I mean c'mon, not even a clickbait? When you are down then really the worst in some people comes out.

Still, Tour 2020, majority was like Rogla will win it, he didn't, Tour 2025, majority is like Rogla has no chance of winning it, he will.

Personally i will take Tour 2025, as the preferred option, any day. To the training now!

 

[EliseeReclus]

Too much talk about crashing IMO and not the actual small details that made a difference. Red Bull have a very weak team here. Now maybe the crash that resulted in Hindley's DNF played a huge role (Tratnik went down pretty hard) but when we see the sort of power UAE and Visma have, then Red Bull Bora is evidently a step below.

I do sometimes look at Bora's roster and question the team building aspect of it - they have a lot of very good mountain domestiques (Hindley, Pellizzari, Martinez, Aleotti all on good form is close to if not better than UAE's Giro doms) - but their Rouleurs are really lacking (Denz is fine but not amazing, Tratnik is good - although the crash didn't help him, and Moscon is, well, Moscon). I feel like with Roglic's propensity for not staying upright you'd want someone very capable to handcuff him to where possible but they don't seem to have prioritised spending money on that.

For all the criticism you can give UAE tactically, they do have 8-10 guys who are very capable rouleurs who would be trusted at a GT, whereas Bora have 4 at a push (Denz, Moscon, Tratnik, Sobrero?)

 

[Oldman]

1. Red Bull has a weak team.

2. Roglic crashes more than he finishes.

The first sign of decline is when you start to get scared and think about the consequences and the people home, rather than being relentless in holding or taking position in every corner/downhill etc and the mentality in general that it applies. This applies to many big name riders today, but it has been the case for Roglic for some years already and it is the first sign of the decline timespan.

He crashes more than he finishes these days. I'm not saying I enjoy it, on the contrary, Roglic a good guy, but anyone who still thinks it's purely coincidental at this point is failing to be objective.

I doubt any of the riders that compete on this level have a spot in their brain thats pondering the risks as you state them. Not even entry level racers will remain in an event if they possess that apprehension to the point it dictates strategy. There's enough nanoseconds to feel the pack movement, scan the pavement and adjust.

Catalunya's final stage was several months ago. Watch the last 40km and judge for yourself who could corner well, who couldn't. Do that, please; before you enter any responses.

The definition of being in the wrong place at the wrong time would be the rider in last year's Tour (can't remember the stage) that attempted to jump a lane divider and took him out on the other side of the pack. He lost minutes limping in to the finish that was 4km away; depriving him of pack time.
Carapaz missed a corner and finished him off, then went on to a heroic finish. Carapaz is solid and fearless and likely faultless in the shunt. Roglic was near him for a reason, IMO. He planned to attack with Richie and was confident he could do what he always does to Carapaz: put 40 second into him in the last 2km of a climb.

It's a very slim margin between heroics and tragic departures and it's useless for the uninformed to wedge an imaginary fault into a rider's history to serve their prejudice. At least that's what appears to be happening.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Lovely sense of solidarity shown by Rog fans who didn't want Primoz to be the only one crashing out.

 

[Rackham]

People have been writing Rog's obituary since he collapsed in the 2019 Giro.

The truth is more mundane. It's simply based on raw numbers. Rog (insofar as he isn't injured) will regroup, go to Tignes and train for the Tour. Then if he doesn't deck it, he'll show his climbing legs at some point and everyone sending him (or wishing him) into retirement will face the same thing that's always happened whenever he has a setback: he comes back and proves his doubters wrong because he's got the numbers to back it up.

It'll be that way until he's either too old and cracks for good or he retires himself. But the arguments about the crashes are beyond tiresome at this point.

 

[FroomeWagon]

I asked deepseek AI for the number of crashes for the top 10 Grand Tour Riders for the past 5 years. The data may not be 100% accurate, as we know these generative AI models can be dicey, but I think it is a good starting point. According to deepseek, Roglic has more crashes than the other 9 riders combined.

If you want more detailed information about all the crashes and sources of data, I can provide that. I just didn't want to create too much clutter in this post.

Also, it does say that crashes during sprints often times go unrecorded unless there is an abandonment.