^ Merckx, just to correct you on fact number two there... it was Tamerlan that Jeff Bauman saw.
From what I understand--and you clearly understand the legalities better than I do--it's not just that they didn't read him his Miranda Rights, it's that the rights are waived, so if he asks for a lawyer (when he can speak again), he won't get one. Since there is a strong likelihood that the Feds will be asking for the Death Penalty, this seems very problematic. Certainly it will be difficult for the Gov't to use anything he says before they finally read him his rights in trial, but it's not impossible. They might not use his pre-Miranda testimony in court (and yes, I know there's already a mountain of evidence against him), but they also might. Who knows? That is, after 8 years of the Bush doctrine and now seeing it continued for 4+ years by Obama, I am very uncomfortable when the Gov't finds reasons, as they so often do, to dispense with the rights which are supposed to be intrinsic to all U.S. citizens.Merckx index said:Yes, but keep a couple of things in mind:
1) He still has those rights; he just wasn’t informed of them. Anyone who knowingly and willingly breaks the law ought to know that he has the right to remain silent until he gets legal counsel. It’s an oft-repeated truism that ignorance of the law is not a defense, that it’s every individual’s responsibility to be informed about the law. So you could argue that ignorance of your rights does not always and necessarily imply that you should be informed of those rights.
2) The reason the government doesn’t want to inform him of his rights is not with the idea of building a stronger case against him. On the contrary, it’s possible that anything he says under these conditions could be challenged in a trial. The reason the government doesn’t want to inform him of his rights is because once a lawyer intervenes between him and the government, the chances of finding out about any other people that might have been involved in the bombing decreases considerably. The government is arguably gambling here, risking their case against Dzhokhar for the sake of getting more information on others.
It seems to me that Dzhokhar is clearly toast at this point. He will spend the rest of his life in prison, the only question being how much longer that life will be, i.e., will he be executed. But if other people were involved in the bombing, his testimony could be critical in finding them and preventing future actions. There have been unconfirmed reports of a cell involving a dozen people, and two people who were among three who were originally detained and then released have been re-arrested. I understand the symbolism in reading him his rights, and am also uncomfortable about not doing this, but if as a practical matter not reading them only affects the ability to gather evidence against others, a case can be made for suspending these rights. I can at least understand the thought process involved.
Aren't we all? I think this is an issue that most would agree on, though the Alex Smith/Glenn Beck batsh!t insane wing takes the conspiracy paranoia to whole new heights. I actually read through the link below, from a page that I wouldn't normally touch, and I have to say that some questions are raised, that really should be addressed. See for yourselves.Wallace said:I am very uncomfortable when the Gov't finds reasons, as they so often do, to dispense with the rights which are supposed to be intrinsic to all U.S. citizens.
Yo Amster move over to US politics thread. I put the link out to his earth shattering most important story ever covered follow up.Amsterhammer said:Aren't we all? I think this is an issue that most would agree on, though the Alex Smith/Glenn Beck batsh!t insane wing takes the conspiracy paranoia to whole new heights. I actually read through the link below, from a page that I wouldn't normally touch, and I have to say that some questions are raised, that really should be addressed. See for yourselves.
Incidentally, unless there is any earth shattering news emanating from D.C. today, we'll have to wait till whenever Glenn Beck goes live for his earth shattering, utterly unbelievable, revelations about what Obama and the gubmint have sneakily been up to with the mysterious Saudi, and why this is possibly the most important story ever, in the history of all of Beck's most important stories ever......and what all this has to do with cover ups of federal conspiracies......
Aha. You sound totally crazy.Amsterhammer said:Aren't we all? I think this is an issue that most would agree on, though the Alex Smith/Glenn Beck batsh!t insane wing takes the conspiracy paranoia to whole new heights. I actually read through the link below, from a page that I wouldn't normally touch, and I have to say that some questions are raised, that really should be addressed. See for yourselves.
Just one of the many reasons not to follow the story too closely. I'm not sure what the point of casting them as Chechen serves. That's another thread entirely.python said:but the actual fact that most western media jumped on the fact the brothers were ethnic chechens rather than kids brought up in america
Russia trying to stop the Chechen Independence movement is easily identified as the motive for Russian Law Enforcement contacting American Law Enforcement.python said:what's troubling is that the FBI Confirms Agents Interviewed Boston Bombing Suspect In 2011
need we to spell out ?
'a foreign government '= russia,
'unspecified underground groups'= chechen insurgency
iow, the fbi was tipped off, found NO 'set backs in the us' and likely missed an opportunity to stop the calamity.
Perhaps my favorite label is the Socialist/Welfare State label given to Obama, who turned out to be just slightly left of Reagan. Now some of those crackpots need to cast Chechen Independence movement as Socialist, because the brothers weren't actually Americans and we've got a whole new level of bizarro world.ChewbaccaD said:He did give the approval for the bin Ladden take-down...I'm sure he personally nixed the investigation into Tsarnaev too thereby legitimizing your comparison...
Now might be a good time to visit how the Patriot Act has been interpreted by Law Enforcement. It also might be a good time to revisit American extradition policy and recent history, and the number of prisioners still being held without trial or even the appearance of formal charges. Nevermind the Executive-approved torture policies.Wallace said:I am very uncomfortable when the Gov't finds reasons, as they so often do, to dispense with the rights which are supposed to be intrinsic to all U.S. citizens.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/04/22/boston-bombing-suspect-will-be-tried-as-a-murderer/The Boston bombing suspect will be tried as a criminal and not an “enemy combatant,” Obama administration officials told The Associated Press on Monday.
Word from the White House came moments after CBS News learned that 19-year-old Dzhokhar Tsarnaev had officially been charged with helping execute the attack on the Boston Marathon that killed three and left over 180 injured.
It’s not yet clear what the specific charges are, but he’s likely to face multiple counts of murder and attempted murder, both of which carry potential life sentences.
i did not express myself the way you quoted me. check above, i said, likely missed an opportunityDirtyWorks said:<snip>
But to then make the leap to "could have stopped this tragedy" is not possible. HOW would stopping have worked? Let's ignore the fact there was no crime committed at the time of the interview. FBI commands the guy to visit a mental health professional? Seriously, how would that work?
Sure the FBI might have bungled it, but on the other hand, there might be a different explanation. Imagine you learn that this guy has contacts to the military/terrorist arm of the Chechen nationalist movement (thanks Russia, I suppose). Then you check him out and find that he's not radicalized after all. Wouldn't be the next step to 'turn' him? Even on the photo gallery he wrote 'Will fight for citizenship', so why not 'Will spy for citizenship'? Anyway, something must have gone wrong along the way. Maybe he was set up by the Russians from the start? So he doesn't deliver the goods, his citizenship application gets rejected and he turns into a loose cannon or psycho. Qui bono? Let's just say that both Chechnya and Daghestan is pipeline country. Russia has the most vital interest in stability there, and an internationally disgraced nationalist movement in Chechnya will make things much different than from 15-20 years ago, where it resembled more a new 1980-style Afghanistan.python said:i did not express myself the way you quoted me. check above, i said, likely missed an opportunity
the opportunity to follow the tip off more seriously and closely had to do with the fact (as confirmed by the official fbi press release and the uncle) that the older brother was becoming a radical islamist - with all the potential for violence of the said gropus- as long as 3 years ago.
normally, if tip-offs like that are believed to have substantive, that person or organization would be put under a close surveillance - phone taps, internet isp monitoring, physical following etc.
clearly, the brothers somehow managed to illegally amass explosive and weapons used later to kill innocent people. this would not happen if the apprehension for the illegal activity procuring weapons and explosives for instance - occurred earlier.
i am more than sure that the fbi is capable of properly reacting to a real or perceived public threat , but somehow, in this case it did not happen. that's all i meant.
This is needle in a haystack stuff. The amount of resources required to do what you mention for each nutcase would be amazing.python said:normally, if tip-offs like that are believed to have substantive, that person or organization would be put under a close surveillance - phone taps, internet isp monitoring, physical following etc.
Here's a revolutionary idea, track the purchase of explosives. Oh wait, the NRA ended that little bit of regulation too. Clearly, it won't work perfectly, but registering to buy explosives is not a 2nd Amendment issue.python said:clearly, the brothers somehow managed to illegally amass explosive and weapons used later to kill innocent people. this would not happen if the apprehension for the illegal activity procuring weapons and explosives for instance - occurred earlier.
Warning very graphic picture:Merckx index said:That libertarian news link is very interesting. Usually I don’t take conspiracy theory stuff very seriously, and some of this is way over the top. Apparently the blogger really believes or did believe that the blast was a fake, and that the injuries were staged. That Jeff Baumann, who was photographed in a wheelchair, was an actor with no injuries. His evidence for this—that one doesn’t see any blood dripping from his legs. Whew.
But I agree with the blogger that some of the events as reported don’t make much sense, like confessing to the bombing to the guy whose car they stole, and not killing him, but giving him a chance to escape when they left him alone in the car. I have also wondered why Dzhokhar didn’t shoot the boat owner, who he had to know would tell the cops his location.
In fact, the entire Thursday night scenario doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Why would they intentionally provoke a confrontation with the cops? Did they want to go down in an orgy of killing? Wouldn’t they try to stay alive as long as possible, carrying out more bombings and killings? It certainly seems clear that Dzhokhar was trying to save his own skin.
And a major point this link raises that I have wondered about all along is that naked guy who was taken into police custody on Thursday night, the night of the shootout with the cops. I saw that on the news, that really happened. Who was this guy, and why has no news outlet that I know of mentioned him since? According to the libertarian link, his aunt says it was Tamerlan. But that doesn’t seem possible, because if he was, the cops would have known someone would recognize him on the video and blow their story of Tamerlan dying in a shootout. And why have none of the brothers’ relatives referred at all to that naked guy since?
He might have been the guy who held up the convenience store, but then why was he ordered to strip? At the least, he must have been thought to be Tamerlan at the time. Did they realize as soon as they got a good look at him that he wasn’t Tamerlan? Or did they think he might have worked with the brothers?
Picking up on Python’s comments, there is another major unanswered question regarding the FBI. There have been more reports that they believe the Tsarnaevs did not act alone, that they had help from some twelve person sleeper cell, three members of which have allegedly been arrested. Even while other government officials continue to say there is no evidence that the brothers did not act alone. But in any case, why is this sleeper cell coming to light now?
The FBI couldn’t have learned about it from the Tsarnaevs, because Tamerlan is dead, and his brother was not yet able to talk at the time the story first broke. So did the FBI know about it before the bombing? Then why weren’t they immediately suspicious that it was behind the bombing? Or if they were, why did they keep saying at that time they had no leads, when clearly any indication they might know who was behind the bombing would have reassured the public?
I don't have much regard for Glenn Beck, but I agree with him that the government has apparently protected Saudis in the past, and there certainly seems to be some kind of deal with the Saudi government/royal family in that regard. This latest deportation may not be quite the earth shattering news he makes it out to be, but the government has some explaining to do.
Make of this what you will.Steve H. said:Warning very graphic picture:
Ask yourself what the lady in the white shirt and red jacket is lying on.
WASHINGTON -- US Senator Lindsey Graham said this morning that the FBI told him it was initially unaware that Tamerlan Tsarnaev had traveled to Russia early last year because of a clerical error: His name was misspelled.
“He went over to Russia, but apparently, when he got on the Aeroflot plane, they misspelled his name,” Graham, a South Carolina Republican said on Fox television this morning. “So it never went into the system that he actually went to Russia.”
Big data, big problems?
Steve H. said:Warning very graphic picture:
Ask yourself what the lady in the white shirt and red jacket is lying on.
O. M. F. G.RetroActive said:Make of this what you will.
Are You Just A Believer Or Do You THINK?
Same sort of thing was happening with Sandy Hook. I suppose it's what happens when gov't continuosly lies to people.hiero2 said:O. M. F. G.
Do you REALLY think, this guy "just-a-believer-or-do-you-think" has ANY connection to reality? If you do, we have nothing to discuss.
I have BEEN on the ground - with my leg in two pieces. I have seen my own bones exposed. I LIVED through the incident. I worked with a man who had a VERY similar injury - except he was out in the middle of the desert, on a motorcycle. He had to drive himself back to where he could be met by medical personnel. With his own bones protruding from his leg as he drove the 20-30 minute trip to where he could get medical assistance.
Whoever posted this complete idiocy has more going on in his mind than truth. This guy probably believes what he says, but he/she has a poor connection to reality. What this guy posts is not just idiocy, it is COMPLETELY disrespectful, and dismissive, of people who suffered REAL injuries on that day. This is utter, and complete, wing nut nonsense. What this person says, that they have knowledge because they have training? Somehow, in this case, that training has no meaning. To this person, there is a political/religious meaning that has greater importance than simple truth. It makes me sick.
Have you ever tried to capture a mouse in your house without poison or a trap? Not the easiest of things to capture a rodent when its scared for its life and has many nooks and crannies to work with.Amsterhammer said:...and how did 19 year old Dzhokhar manage to elude the thousands of armed police, road blocks, etc., dump the SUV and creep unnoticed into that boat?
It was also 'reported' that a doctor was quoted as saying that there were more bullet holes in Tamerlan than they could count. Did he get all those bullet holes before or after he was run over?[/quote]And how exactly did Tamerlan die? It was 'reported' that Dzhokar had run him over in the SUV when he was still alive, as he drove through a police road block where Tamerlan happened to be lying on the ground?
Yes, there are plenty of holes especially at the location of the shootings, I'm just surprised no one else was shot during these shootouts, which means they at least shot in a very close trajectory to the brothers. Who is credible? The living brother or the cops or anyone who could even get close enough during those shoot outs that is still alive or willing to talk. The uncle who basically disowned them. The wife will have to say what she knows even if it goes against her new found religious ways if we are to know anything. Unless you will believe the living brother.There are still too many holes and inconsistencies, and yes, I also found that parts of the libertarian blogger's text posed questions that must be answered. We need a credible, consistent report of how things went down. The truth would also be nice.
Governments lie--that's what they do. That's what they've always done. The idea that this means there's some kind of plot going on is just asinine. Everything coming out shows that the Boston events were in the line of Sandy Hook, Columbine and Virginia Tech--insane people with weapons with no political or religious affiliations, except in their crazy heads.RetroActive said:Same sort of thing was happening with Sandy Hook. I suppose it's what happens when gov't continuosly lies to people.
What I do believe is that we're being wound up for a wider war however you slice it.
The Tehran factor: New wrinkle added to Canadian counter-terrorism efforts