Fans encroaching over barriers

[Basecase]

So Colli will lodge a police complaint in relation to his accident on Saturday.

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/05/collis-operation-successful-injured-rider-to-make-police-complaint-against-photographer-on-saturday/

I've major sympathy for the rider but, given the photographer was essentially behind the barrier and not out to cause injury (we can assume), aren't the organisers as much if not more to blame?

Is this a fruitless exercise (whether the person can be traced or not)?

Thoughts?

 

[IndianCyclist]

No warnings, no safety videos/announcements, no steel mesh protection,it will come back to organizers

 

[TheGreenMonkey]

There is one simple thing spectators should do at a race, STAY OFF THE ROAD. Simple, easy but we consistently have morons impacting on cycling.

It will very quickly become cost prohibitive to organisers if they have to put up barriers that it impossible for spectators to interfer with the cyclists. How are they going to barricade off the whole length of 200km+ stages?
Remember the crash in 2011 Tour that brought down a large part of the peloton when a spectator was standing on the road looking the opposite way to the cyclists was a long way from the finish.

 

[RedheadDane]

Yes, the spectator was behind the barriers, but his camera wasn't.

But, yeah; organisers do have a responsibility to constantly remind people to stay off the road and keep everything behind the barriers. I remember last year during Danmark Rundt the speaker at the finish line made sure to point out that of course everyone should make as much noise as possible, but stay behind the barriers.

One more thing; I'm not on Twitter myself, but maybe if enough people went out there and pledged to stay off the road during a race, and to remind others to do the same.

 

[lemon cheese cake]

In the last 200m RCS tend to put up higher barriers where the hoardings clip into. This crash was at a point in the final 1k that had normal hight barriers. I wouldn't think that putting higher barriers for a whole kilometre will be cost effective, as like othrr have said, there are still atleast another 109 kilometres left.

What these type of barriers prevent is the hoarding banging that seems to be encouraged by the commentary people at the finish.

 

[King Boonen]

Every single rider is aware that people are going to lean over those barriers at some point. They make the decision to risk it and try and go up the outsides or they sit up. Short of putting 20 foot high chickenwire up I don't really see what the organisers can do. The complaint will come to nothing.

 

[chiocciolis_calves]

While everyone is looking to others to solve this problem, I must ask what in the f*ck the fans around these idiots are doing? I realize in the year 2015, very few human beings are willing to speak up when someone else is doing something destructive or dangerous to others, but are there none of you in Europe attending these races who will yell at these morons and do what it takes to stop them in the face of impending injury?

I understand idiots who don't know any better. I will never understand people who stand silent when they witness idiotic behavior that is bound to harm someone.

 

[NairoQ]

While everyone is looking to others to solve this problem, I must ask what in the f*ck the fans around these idiots are doing? I realize in the year 2015, very few human beings are willing to speak up when someone else is doing something destructive or dangerous to others, but are there none of you in Europe attending these races who will yell at these morons and do what it takes to stop them in the face of impending injury?

I understand idiots who don't know any better. I will never understand people who stand silent when they witness idiotic behavior that is bound to harm someone.

Let's keep in mind that more of the people on the side of the road aren't really cycling fans, and are there for the event/the atmosphere (which is a good thing!). Thus, they don't really see the dangers we would probably see too. But you've got a point: I guess people don't speak up fast enough when they actually see something dangerous, because they believe that if no-one else perceives it as dangerous, it probably won't be that bad.

I think it's the task of the organisation to make sure people don't do this, by actively raising awareness in the minutes/hours before the race, by actively telling everyone hanging over the barriers not to, and by removing stubborn people who don't feel like listening to the organisation. It's just that people don't realize there is a problem before it's too late, and you can't really blame them.

 

[chiocciolis_calves]

While everyone is looking to others to solve this problem, I must ask what in the f*ck the fans around these idiots are doing? I realize in the year 2015, very few human beings are willing to speak up when someone else is doing something destructive or dangerous to others, but are there none of you in Europe attending these races who will yell at these morons and do what it takes to stop them in the face of impending injury?

I understand idiots who don't know any better. I will never understand people who stand silent when they witness idiotic behavior that is bound to harm someone.

Let's keep in mind that more of the people on the side of the road aren't really cycling fans, and are there for the event/the atmosphere (which is a good thing!). Thus, they don't really see the dangers we would probably see too. But you've got a point: I guess people don't speak up fast enough when they actually see something dangerous, because they believe that if no-one else perceives it as dangerous, it probably won't be that bad.

I think it's the task of the organisation to make sure people don't do this, by actively raising awareness in the minutes/hours before the race, by actively telling everyone hanging over the barriers not to, and by removing stubborn people who don't feel like listening to the organisation. It's just that people don't realize there is a problem before it's too late, and you can't really blame them.

This isn't even a difficult moral question. If anyone is leaning over to a point where they endanger the riders flying along 40 mph, not to mention other spectators, the proper response is to pull them back and yell at them. Many of our problems result from shrinking violets who rationalize their inaction with feeble whimpers about how the person might be a nut who will kill them. No, you aren't going to be killed, nor even hit the vast majority of the time. The person will usually be embarrassed and apologize and, in this case, you will help spare a cyclist from injury, potentially serious injury. But folks can keep looking to others to take responsibility and keep whimpering excuses for their inaction.

 

[NairoQ]

Did you read what I said? I said in my opinion it's not that people don't dare to speak up, it's that they don't realize the situation is that dangerous. Clear enough?

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Selfie clowns.....

 

[chiocciolis_calves]

Re:

Did you read what I said? I said in my opinion it's not that people don't dare to speak up, it's that they don't realize the situation is that dangerous. Clear enough?

I did. I don't buy your premise that the reason they don't speak up is that they are oblivious to the danger of the idiots in question. There are too many knowledgeable cycling fans for these idiots to always be surrounded by similarly ignorant people. Also, from watching races at times with someone who knows very little about the sport, the recklessness of this behavior is obvious to nearly everyone. The vast majority of people are loathe to speak up to any strangers. They construct rationalizations like the one you offer after the fact to explain their inaction. This is why the people standing around them do nothing.

 

[NairoQ]

Re: Re:

Did you read what I said? I said in my opinion it's not that people don't dare to speak up, it's that they don't realize the situation is that dangerous. Clear enough?

I did. I don't buy your premise that the reason they don't speak up is that they are oblivious to the danger of the idiots in question. There are too many knowledgeable cycling fans for these idiots to always be surrounded by similarly ignorant people. Also, from watching races at times with someone who knows very little about the sport, the recklessness of this behavior is obvious to nearly everyone. The vast majority of people are loathe to speak up to any strangers. They construct rationalizations like the one you offer after the fact to explain their inaction. This is why the people standing around them do nothing.

Well, I guess it's a lot easier to spot danger on your television screen then in real life then? I don't recall ever thinking: "Hey, this guy should watch out before he kickes someone off his bike." That can make me a normal person, or as you say it someone who refuses to admit that he's seen danger and didn't want to say it. I know myself, thanks.

 

[chiocciolis_calves]

Re: Re:

Did you read what I said? I said in my opinion it's not that people don't dare to speak up, it's that they don't realize the situation is that dangerous. Clear enough?

I did. I don't buy your premise that the reason they don't speak up is that they are oblivious to the danger of the idiots in question. There are too many knowledgeable cycling fans for these idiots to always be surrounded by similarly ignorant people. Also, from watching races at times with someone who knows very little about the sport, the recklessness of this behavior is obvious to nearly everyone. The vast majority of people are loathe to speak up to any strangers. They construct rationalizations like the one you offer after the fact to explain their inaction. This is why the people standing around them do nothing.

Well, I guess it's a lot easier to spot danger on your television screen then in real life then? I don't recall ever thinking: "Hey, this guy should watch out before he kickes someone off his bike." That can make me a normal person, or as you say it someone who refuses to admit that he's seen danger and didn't want to say it. I know myself, thanks.

Right, because it's nearly impossible to figure out that someone leaning way over the barriers as riders are bearing down at 40 mph, inches from the barrier, will lead to disaster. Is this seriously your argument? You're going with this? You need to be watching from TV to be able to perceive this?

I'm tickled pink you think you "know yourself." I'm 100% confident that everyone who refuses to act in this situation and a whole host of other situations rationalizes to themselves afterwards that they didn't realize there was impending danger and injury afoot.

Now, let's get on with assigning responsibility to everyone else to take care of the idiots causing these accidents. Mind you, we'll have to turn to the folks watching it on TV because they're the only ones in a position to judge whether these muppets are actually close enough to cause crashes. Lance seems to be sitting on the couch more and more these days, how about him?

 

[JayKosta]

Spectators are stupid - they jump in the road, lean over the barriers, wave stuff, etc.
Riders are stupid - they expect spectators to be smart, and don't look ahead to see dangers.
Organizers are stupid (or at least not cautious enough) - they minimize the stupid of spectators and riders.

There's never been a lack of stupid.

And everyone does 'what seemed best at the time'.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[NairoQ]

Re: Re:

Did you read what I said? I said in my opinion it's not that people don't dare to speak up, it's that they don't realize the situation is that dangerous. Clear enough?

I did. I don't buy your premise that the reason they don't speak up is that they are oblivious to the danger of the idiots in question. There are too many knowledgeable cycling fans for these idiots to always be surrounded by similarly ignorant people. Also, from watching races at times with someone who knows very little about the sport, the recklessness of this behavior is obvious to nearly everyone. The vast majority of people are loathe to speak up to any strangers. They construct rationalizations like the one you offer after the fact to explain their inaction. This is why the people standing around them do nothing.

Well, I guess it's a lot easier to spot danger on your television screen then in real life then? I don't recall ever thinking: "Hey, this guy should watch out before he kickes someone off his bike." That can make me a normal person, or as you say it someone who refuses to admit that he's seen danger and didn't want to say it. I know myself, thanks.

Right, because it's nearly impossible to figure out that someone leaning way over the barriers as riders are bearing down at 40 mph, inches from the barrier, will lead to disaster. Is this seriously your argument? You're going with this? You need to be watching from TV to be able to perceive this?

I'm tickled pink you think you "know yourself." I'm 100% confident that everyone who refuses to act in this situation and a whole host of other situations rationalizes to themselves afterwards that they didn't realize there was impending danger and injury afoot.

Now, let's get on with assigning responsibility to everyone else to take care of the idiots causing these accidents. Mind you, we'll have to turn to the folks watching it on TV because they're the only ones in a position to judge whether these muppets are actually close enough to cause crashes. Lance seems to be sitting on the couch more and more these days, how about him?

No need to go all crazy. All I'm saying is that it never crossed my mind that a spectator was doing something dangerous while I was watching live. Maybe because it just didn't happen in my neighbourhood, maybe because I just didn't look at other spectators that way. But when you're juggling with your 100% certainty of being ably to look inside of my head, you're really right. Since you're 100% sure. (Try to understand other's point of view sometimes, instead of your own. I did tell you that you had a point, but you need to nuance a little since there's a thin barrier between someone looking over the barriers, and someone slipping their camera over split-seconds before the crash. People look at the race, believe me)

 

[tokenron]

I am certain in this day and age, companies who construct barriers used in sprint finishes can find a way to force a greater separation between riders and fans. This is where the racing is fastest and riders take the most risks.

Hopefully Colli's injury can give this the impetus it deserves. The riders need to keep hounding the relevant bodies to keep pushing the safety development envelope, just like the F1 drivers of the 70s did (to provide one example).

On the 99% of the rest of the stage that the organisers can't possibly fence off, everyone just needs to sit back and look at the big picture - pro cycling doesn't exist without fans and it doesn't exist without riders. Have fun, look out for each other, call out idiotic behaviour, and when accidents happen (as they always will) try to learn from them. And realise that millions of people around the world have real problems...

 

[SafeBet]

While everyone is looking to others to solve this problem, I must ask what in the f*ck the fans around these idiots are doing? I realize in the year 2015, very few human beings are willing to speak up when someone else is doing something destructive or dangerous to others, but are there none of you in Europe attending these races who will yell at these morons and do what it takes to stop them in the face of impending injury?

I understand idiots who don't know any better. I will never understand people who stand silent when they witness idiotic behavior that is bound to harm someone.

What do you think the idiots will reply? "Thanks for giving me sensible advices, I now know how to behave at a cycling race"? They'll laugh at you or worse they'll tell you to *** off.
In S. Lorenzo there was this guy who moved the barrier to create some space for him and his son, because otherwise they had to stay behind me. I told him it was unsafe. He started yelling at me that everybody has the right to watch the race. What should I do? Start a fight? Call the police?

 

[Mongolian Mayhem]

Very simple. If you cause an accident: 1) You pay a 5000 euro fine and 2) You get punched in the face twice. Once in the jaw and once in the ear. The 5000 euros get divided tokenly amongst the injured.

 

[chiocciolis_calves]

Re: Re:

Did you read what I said? I said in my opinion it's not that people don't dare to speak up, it's that they don't realize the situation is that dangerous. Clear enough?

I did. I don't buy your premise that the reason they don't speak up is that they are oblivious to the danger of the idiots in question. There are too many knowledgeable cycling fans for these idiots to always be surrounded by similarly ignorant people. Also, from watching races at times with someone who knows very little about the sport, the recklessness of this behavior is obvious to nearly everyone. The vast majority of people are loathe to speak up to any strangers. They construct rationalizations like the one you offer after the fact to explain their inaction. This is why the people standing around them do nothing.

Well, I guess it's a lot easier to spot danger on your television screen then in real life then? I don't recall ever thinking: "Hey, this guy should watch out before he kickes someone off his bike." That can make me a normal person, or as you say it someone who refuses to admit that he's seen danger and didn't want to say it. I know myself, thanks.

Right, because it's nearly impossible to figure out that someone leaning way over the barriers as riders are bearing down at 40 mph, inches from the barrier, will lead to disaster. Is this seriously your argument? You're going with this? You need to be watching from TV to be able to perceive this?

I'm tickled pink you think you "know yourself." I'm 100% confident that everyone who refuses to act in this situation and a whole host of other situations rationalizes to themselves afterwards that they didn't realize there was impending danger and injury afoot.

Now, let's get on with assigning responsibility to everyone else to take care of the idiots causing these accidents. Mind you, we'll have to turn to the folks watching it on TV because they're the only ones in a position to judge whether these muppets are actually close enough to cause crashes. Lance seems to be sitting on the couch more and more these days, how about him?

No need to go all crazy. All I'm saying is that it never crossed my mind that a spectator was doing something dangerous while I was watching live. Maybe because it just didn't happen in my neighbourhood, maybe because I just didn't look at other spectators that way. But when you're juggling with your 100% certainty of being ably to look inside of my head, you're really right. Since you're 100% sure. (Try to understand other's point of view sometimes, instead of your own. I did tell you that you had a point, but you need to nuance a little since there's a thin barrier between someone looking over the barriers, and someone slipping their camera over split-seconds before the crash. People look at the race, believe me)

1. Let's see: "No need to go all crazy."

Two sentences later: " But when you're juggling with your 100% certainty of being ably to look inside of my head, you're really right." Simply marvelous. I guess we're each peering into each other's minds, then?

2. "Nuance" is not a verb.

3. I will freely admit that there are many times someone cannot react quickly enough to prevent an accident on each occasion. I am fairly certain, though, that if these numbskulls were consistently subjected to public embarrassment at various races, the practice would become less common. I am also certain that in most of these cases there are people standing next to them who witness it seconds before it happens and could do something. Something that they apparently expect race officials or police officers to do in their place.

 

[chiocciolis_calves]

While everyone is looking to others to solve this problem, I must ask what in the f*ck the fans around these idiots are doing? I realize in the year 2015, very few human beings are willing to speak up when someone else is doing something destructive or dangerous to others, but are there none of you in Europe attending these races who will yell at these morons and do what it takes to stop them in the face of impending injury?

I understand idiots who don't know any better. I will never understand people who stand silent when they witness idiotic behavior that is bound to harm someone.

What do you think the idiots will reply? "Thanks for giving me sensible advices, I now know how to behave at a cycling race"? They'll laugh at you or worse they'll tell you to **** off.
In S. Lorenzo there was this guy who moved the barrier to create some space for him and his son, because otherwise they had to stay behind me. I told him it was unsafe. He started yelling at me that everybody has the right to watch the race. What should I do? Start a fight? Call the police?

No, you should let them stand there and cause a serious accident with a racer because you're afraid a man with a child is going to hit you. I mean, that seems the sensible and moral thing to do, yes?

Since you asked, I will tell you that throughout my life, the most common response when I have confronted people doing something that endangers others or is just simply obnoxious and rude is shock that someone is calling on them on it. They have usually apologized or stopped. Some have responded angrily. Did you know that not a single time have I been hit by any of them? Fear of there being a fight or being killed is the most common excuse I have heard from people who stand silent. It's how they rationalize doing nothing.

 

[jmdirt]

The guy with the camera should have charges brought against him. His actions caused injury to another person. It doesn't matter if he 'didn't know that he would be a problem' sticking his camera into the race. Plus, with a camera like that, he is a professional photographer, and should know better.

 

[Basecase]

Re:

The guy with the camera should have charges brought against him. His actions caused injury to another person. It doesn't matter if he 'didn't know that he would be a problem' sticking his camera into the race. Plus, with a camera like that, he is a professional photographer, and should know better.

But who ran into who in this instance?

Of course a spectator was given ample warning by organisers of these conditions he was submitting to by attending ??? Where? What's the rule about head, arm, camera over barrier? No more than 20cm if it's a tail wind and it's a bunch sprint etc? Camera lens less than 20cm long please???

Actually, never when attending a road race have I seen a warning "cycling is a dangerous sport ..... Etc"

What of precedent? When this happened, how much liability attached to the police man who did far worse? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gvC28xnO76I

And you know for a fact it was a professional photographer? Sure then of course he'll have race credentials and of course he would be stood with Joe Public ....

 

[Volderke]

+1 for Basecase

I have a bigger camera than this so-called professional. And a lot of people have. The photographer should have been a bit more precautious, but, and this is what chiocciolis_calves seems to miss out:
The photographer was not standing in a particular risky place. He was standing 5 meters before the barriers narrowd abruptly inwards with around 30-40 cms. This implicates that any rider this close with the barriers at the location of the photographer would have the very existing risk of ending up in the barriers anyway, irregardless of the photographer. This is why the photographer, and probably all bystanders, deemed it a safe place to lean over a bit. They couldn't imagine a rider would take the risk of passing with a very small margin and the risk of crashing 5 meters further. Unfortunately, for Colli already taking too many risks, this was a situation he couldn't predict. But I tell you, if he didn't crash into the photographer (+ other bystander, once again, not only the photographer was hit, but also the lady right behind the photographer, with a pocket camera), he would 95% sure have crashed into the barrier, or, in order to avoid that, into Ruffoni.

So Colli sueing is ridiculous in ANY aspect. The guy was behind the barriers, he was not moving, and there is no rule for leaning over barriers. Part of the game so deal with it.
I noticed that last 300m barriers are a bit skew so people leaning over cannot lean over further than the skewness of the barriers.

 

[RedheadDane]

I suppose the idiots come into three broad categories:

1:
Those like the guy SafeBet ran into, who seem to think their personal enjoyment is more important than everyone's safety. Not just rider safety, everyone's safety; would've liked to know how that guy would've felt if his kid had gotten injured because he got hit by riders crashing.

2:
Those who actually do accept the advice and act accordingly. I believe this Group exists; unfortunately it's probably rather small.

3:
Those who accept the advice, but forget about it as soon as the race arrive; going into full idiot-mode once again.