Fatty Acids Identified in the Burmese Python Promote Beneficial Cardiac Growth

[Dr. Maserati]

If you don't accept the possibility of non-therapeutic and healthy augmentation of the human body, then the hypothetical future situation I present is never going to happen and the ethical and moral issues I allude to are never going to arise.

I'm convinced that non-therapeutic and healthy augmentation of the human body will be available within the next decade and beyond. The moral and ethical issues surrounding it are huge. Sport is just one facet of the problem.

Sure 'gene therapy' is on the way.
But pretty much everything you have stated is not by definition "performance enhancing".

If there was a specific example of something that could be used/abused then I might understand your point.

 

[MarkvW]

Sure 'gene therapy' is on the way.
But pretty much everything you have stated is not by definition "performance enhancing".

If there was a specific example of something that could be used/abused then I might understand your point.

If you wait several years, I bet you'll see an example of gene therapy that is (a) healthy; (b) not therapeutically needed; and (c) performance enhancing in sport.

Sorry I can't give you a concrete example. The Maserat-style relentless quest for a concrete example must end.

This kind of stuff is emerging in the area between science fiction and science fact. The ethical issues are interesting though. When these kind of therapies come out sporting organizations are going to have to rethink everything.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I think EPO is dangerous. I don't think you would disagree with me. The medical materials I've seen all stress that EPO is very dangerous.

Well, wait now.... Until it was killing kids and causing cancer it was safe. If doping is a foregone conclusion, then it's time for YOU to start. No back sliding out of your original point. If this is the future you say it is, you first.

When there are SAFE drugs or procedures that enhance people's lives with no counterbalancing adverse health effect, then people will take them.

And unicorns deliver my favorite pizza, for free.... Nearly every drug has side effects.

What about the nine year old kid with an unhealthy hormone deficiency, whose parents decide to have him treated with gene therapy? What if the kid post-treatment becomes hulk-on-a-bike and can solo away from every other kid in his age group? You're not advocating that the kid shouldn't get the treatment, I'm sure. But are you also arguing that the kid should be deprived of his chance to excel in sport--at his chance to maximize his athletic potential?

You bring up an interesting and extremely(!) rare example that's completely off topic.

In your eagerness to put words in my mouth, you have entirely missed my point. There is soon going to come a time when people augment their bodies for good reasons (not cheating reasons). How will those people be integrated into sport? I have no plan. This is a very hard question.

Well, now that you've completely backed away from your original claim that doping is inevitable, there is an answer for this issue. Medicine's role is to get the human body to near average. So it won't happen. Fun to theorize, but really nothing that should happen if the medical practitioner is doing their job.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If you wait several years, I bet you'll see an example of gene therapy that is (a) healthy; (b) not therapeutically needed; and (c) performance enhancing in sport.

Sorry I can't give you a concrete example. The Maserat-style relentless quest for a concrete example must end.

This kind of stuff is emerging in the area between science fiction and science fact. The ethical issues are interesting though. When these kind of therapies come out sporting organizations are going to have to rethink everything.

No need to get snippy - your theory requires to many "what ifs" and confuses what exactly performance enhancing is.


No doubting that if gene therapy can be abused then it will be abused. But so far all of the specific hypotheticals you have presented do not suggest it will happen.

 

[MarkvW]

Well, wait now.... Until it was killing kids and causing cancer it was safe. If doping is a foregone conclusion, then it's time for YOU to start. No back sliding out of your original point. If this is the future you say it is, you first.



And unicorns deliver my favorite pizza, for free.... Nearly every drug has side effects.


You bring up an interesting and extremely(!) rare example that's completely off topic.



Well, now that you've completely backed away from your original claim that doping is inevitable, there is an answer for this issue. Medicine's role is to get the human body to near average. So it won't happen. Fun to theorize, but really nothing that should happen if the medical practitioner is doing their job.

And this is why discussions in the Clinic never go anywhere.

 

[Merckx index]

Sure 'gene therapy' is on the way.
But pretty much everything you have stated is not by definition "performance enhancing".

If there was a specific example of something that could be used/abused then I might understand your point.

Gene therapy is used right now to treat people at risk for heart attacks, promoting blood vessel growth to the heart. That would definitely be performance enhancing.

Really, what Mark is talking about is a slam dunk. One can argue about when it’s going to happen, but it definitely will happen.

Also, it would be very naive to think that gene therapy will be used only to correct deficiencies. Of course many parents are going to want to enhance their children beyond what is generally considered normal, as soon as they become convinced of the safety of these procedures.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Gene therapy is used right now to treat people at risk for heart attacks, promoting blood vessel growth to the heart. That would definitely be performance enhancing.

Again - that is Regenerative medicine.

Really, what Mark is talking about is a slam dunk. One can argue about when it’s going to happen, but it definitely will happen.

Also, it would be very naive to think that gene therapy will be used only to correct deficiencies.

It would be naive - which is why no-one suggested it.

As I said earlier, I have no doubt that "if" it becomes common use and affordable it will be abused.
Its the 'if affordable, beneficial' part that I am not yet convinced of.

Of course many parents are going to want to enhance their children beyond what is generally considered normal, as soon as they become convinced of the safety of these procedures.

Will they?
Most parents are happy to have a normal healthy child.

What I have seen put forward so far is that some magic gene is going to appear that enhances overall performance - there won't be. It will be just like current drugs - various treatments designed for specific use.

 

[Merckx index]

Again - that is Regenerative medicine.

Meaning what? I really don't understand your point. Upthread you said:

You think there will be a drug or gene that will do that? Restore a deficiency and makes you better, indeed much much better and beyond current human limitations?

Yes, heart vessel growth is an example of this. The fact that it might be considered regenerative medicine is irrelevant to the question of whether it might be performance-enhancing. As Mark said, it is possible for a treatment to do both.

Rotator cuff surgery is regenerative medicine, and is also performance enhancing. Pitchers often come back from the procedure better than they ever were--Strasburg might be an example. It is currently legal. OTOH, there are drug treatments that are also regenerative in nature, also PE, but banned in certain sports.

It would be naive - which is why no-one suggested it.

As I said earlier, I have no doubt that "if" it becomes common use and affordable it will be abused.

What I think you're missing is that the line between correcting deficiencies and enhancement/abuse is not a sharp one, as the above point suggests. And gene therapy promises to make it much blurrier.

Its the 'if affordable, beneficial' part that I am not yet convinced of.

Which is why I said one can argue about the time frame.

What I have seen put forward so far is that some magic gene is going to appear that enhances overall performance - there won't be. It will be just like current drugs - various treatments designed for specific use.

Initially, yes. Later, not clear.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Meaning what? I really don't understand your point. Upthread you said:



Yes, heart vessel growth is an example of this. The fact that it might be considered regenerative medicine is irrelevant to the question of whether it might be performance-enhancing. As Mark said, it is possible for a treatment to do both.

Sorry but that is the only relevant question - is someone availing of treatment to repair an injury or to enhance performance.

Rotator cuff surgery is regenerative medicine, and is also performance enhancing. Pitchers often come back from the procedure better than they ever were--Strasburg might be an example. It is currently legal. OTOH, there are drug treatments that are also regenerative in nature, also PE, but banned in certain sports.

I have no knowledge of baseball - but again, had these athletes injuries?
If so, then obviously they would be back playing their best.

What I think you're missing is that the line between correcting deficiencies and enhancement/abuse is not a sharp one, as the above point suggests. And gene therapy promises to make it much blurrier.



Which is why I said one can argue about the time frame.



Initially, yes. Later, not clear.

I am not missing it that blurry line - I have acknowledged it already at least twice.

However you appear to have missed the distinction that I made in respect of MarkWv's point that some form of gene therapy would transform someone "beyond human limitations".

 

[Benotti69]

Sorry but that is the only relevant question - is someone availing of treatment to repair an injury or to enhance performance.


I have no knowledge of baseball - but again, had these athletes injuries?
If so, then obviously they would be back playing their best.




I am not missing it that blurry line - I have acknowledged it already at least twice.

However you appear to have missed the distinction that I made in respect of MarkWv's point that some form of gene therapy would transform someone "beyond human limitations".

and no doubt will be very obvious to all.

I get a hidden tone in MarkVW's posts alluding to the old myth of Armstrong having received treatment for cancer which then changed his body...bla bla bla.....BS, he came back with a better program by a doping doctor working exclusively for him and his team and according to JV they took lots of PEDs compared to other teams.

if athletes want to undergo surgery to improve their performances to win they are entering the world of the unknown, long term health wise and also sporting success wise. I doubt many who watch cycling for example would like to see riders being able to sprint up alpe'duez on a 53x12. their will be those numbnuts who like it but they also like WWF fer chissakes and will sponsors want to assocaite their products with such lunacy?

 

[Mambo95]

In your desperation to find doping stories, the forum is now literally talking about Snake Oil.

 

[DirtyWorks]

And this is why discussions in the Clinic never go anywhere.

Am I supposed to compromise to accept a fundamentally flawed argument just because you won't quit trying to make a failed argument work? That's not well reasoned discussion.

Your original point was 'doping in sport is inevitable.' I and others sufficiently debunked this several different ways and your final method of maintaining a flawed argument is to blame others because we aren't just blindly accepting your opinion.

In many ways I like what you bring to the forum, really. You call weak arguments out in other threads to the overall betterment of discussion. In this specific instance, it's time to modify your outlook. I will stop now and just agree to disagree.

Mambo95,

If you followed the BALCO story closely you may not remember that that is exactly how Conte developed his PED's. He paid people to dig around Stanford's library for research that would lead to PED's. So, it's not so much desperation as a 'heads up.'

 

[Dr. Maserati]

and no doubt will be very obvious to all.

I get a hidden tone in MarkVW's posts alluding to the old myth of Armstrong having received treatment for cancer which then changed his body...bla bla bla.....BS, he came back with a better program by a doping doctor working exclusively for him and his team and according to JV they took lots of PEDs compared to other teams.

To be fair to MarkVw, I don't get that 'hidden tone'.
But I was trying to understand their point that there would be a moral/ethical debate and that gene therapy would transform people in to champions.

I was attempting to tease out their theory - as I am not yet convinced it will be as much of a factor as many had feared.

MerckxIndex showed some examples but they actually reinforce my view.
Gene therapy is a lot like where doping with drugs was in the 80's - new drugs designed to address specific conditions that were abused by athletes.
WADA have been looking at the consequences of gene therapy for almost 10 years, but I believe we are along way from gene therapy replacing traditional drugs.

if athletes want to undergo surgery to improve their performances to win they are entering the world of the unknown, long term health wise and also sporting success wise. I doubt many who watch cycling for example would like to see riders being able to sprint up alpe'duez on a 53x12. their will be those numbnuts who like it but they also like WWF fer chissakes and will sponsors want to assocaite their products with such lunacy?

You bring up 2 points which address MarkVws points earlier over the moral/ethical part of gene therapy and gene doping.

Much of this was sorted out back in the 80's when there was a lot of debate and confusion on where progressive science crossed the line in to performance enhancing.

 

[avanti]

..............
We're seeing the beginning of this with the South African amputee sprinter whose biomechanical legs give him a huge advantage. Some people want to keep him from racing, others don't. It is a tough problem, but I think it is wrong to keep him from participating.

I might be wrong but my recollection is that he was allowed to compete and failed to beat his competition.

 

[Merckx index]

More news relevant to gene doping:



http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111121104509.htm

An international team of scientists has created super-strong, high-endurance mice and worms by suppressing a natural muscle-growth inhibitor, suggesting treatments for age-related or genetics-related muscle degeneration are within reach.

In the absence of the inhibitor, the muscle tissue developed much more effectively. The mice with the mutation became true marathoners, capable of running faster and longer before showing any signs of fatigue. In fact, they were able to cover almost twice the distance run by mice that hadn't received the treatment. They also exhibited better cold tolerance.

"This could be used to combat muscle weakness in the elderly, which leads to falls and contributes to hospitalizations," Auwerx says. "In addition, we think that this could be used as a basis for developing a treatment for genetic muscular dystrophy."

He added that if these results are confirmed in humans, there's no question they will attract interest from athletes as well as medical experts.

Interesting that part of the research team was at Lausanne.

 

[DirtyWorks]

He added that if these results are confirmed in humans, there's no question they will attract interest from athletes as well as medical experts.

Until many guys and/or girl experiences the inevitable awful consequences. The lifetime of health consequences will be a social cost I am unwilling to fund.

MarkVw, using muscle growth suppression in competitive cycling is like a goose laying golden eggs. C'mon man, get in touch with these researchers and get started! You'll crush your local criterium scene! You can be the newest prepatore in the Pro and Pro-Am peloton after your first national title. And remember, it's you first because doping is inevitable. Consequences? We're talking about winning!