Fignon's claims about the legality of Lemond's 1989 aero bars

[ultimobici]

I rather trust him. So could he mean Hampsten was forced to use normal bars?

(I'm editing my previous post)

He didn't try to use tri-bars in the Giro. 7-11 didn't attempt to use them in the stage 3 TTT either.

Hampsten's problems started before he took the start in Sicily as he had elected to ride the Tour de Trump instead of Romandie, hence he was jet-lagged and ill prepared for the stifling heat.

But his main problem was that Fignon, when free of injury, was far more of a rounded rider. He could climb with the best, was excellent against the watch and was tactically astute to boot. Hampsten was a great climber, was able to read a race well but was not Fignon's equal against the watch by any stretch of the imagination.

If you look at the Tour's result it only reinforces this point. 41' back from Lemond & Fignon.

 

[star06]

Little known fact is that after the mechanic installed the bars, Greg Lemond tested them by pulling as hard as he could and managed to move/ nudge the bars slightly. The mechanic said he would probably never pull that hard during the TT. Incredulously, Greg replied "I'll pull that hard on every single stroke." Greg looked around as time was fleeting for preparations. He fashioned shims out of a soda can. The man always paid attention to details like all Champions.

 

[ultimobici]

Little known fact is that after the mechanic installed the bars, Greg Lemond tested them by pulling as hard as he could and managed to move/ nudge the bars slightly. The mechanic said he would probably never pull that hard during the TT. Incredulously, Greg replied "I'll pull that hard on every single stroke." Greg looked around as time was fleeting for preparations. He fashioned shims out of a soda can. The man always paid attention to details like all Champions.

It's been common knowledge for 20 years! Julien Devries (Merckx's Mechanic) used coke can to shim them as the Mavic bars were too skinny where they clamped on. They discovered the problem at the first time trial in Rennes.

 

[Echoes]

Bringing this thread up.

Ultimo, thanks for the info on Hampsten but I'm now sure that that's what happened. He planned to use the bars and was prevented from using them.


At this point, I want to correct a mistake of mine. I said earlier on this thread that Ledent was the official at the GP Merckx and the Tour de France in 1989. That's what Fignon claimed in his book but it's inaccurate.

Ledent was in charge of the ruling at the GP Merckx and ... at the Giro. He told Fignon at the GP Merckx that he didn't understand why they let LeMond start with these bars because he stopped Hampsten from using them in Italy.

Other riders were stopped from using them in Brussels but they decided to race with normal bars while Fignon chose not to, as a form of protest.

(to answer a question by Blutto, Merckx was present when LeMond had his bike checked because he equipped the 7-Eleven's)

Here are two articles in French (from L'Équipe) that I've received from the same friend of mine. I might come back to it because there are other interesting points that may be worth translating.

In any case, all we need to know is there !

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2524/001qgo.jpg
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/497/002op.jpg
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/3655/003fu.jpg

 

[blutto]

Bringing this thread up.

Ultimo, thanks for the info on Hampsten but I'm now sure that that's what happened. He planned to use the bars and was prevented from using them.


At this point, I want to correct a mistake of mine. I said earlier on this thread that Ledent was the official at the GP Merckx and the Tour de France in 1989. That's what Fignon claimed in his book but it's inaccurate.

Ledent was in charge of the ruling at the GP Merckx and ... at the Giro. He told Fignon at the GP Merckx that he didn't understand why they let LeMond start with these bars because he stopped Hampsten from using them in Italy.

Other riders were stopped from using them in Brussels but they decided to race with normal bars while Fignon chose not to, as a form of protest.

(to answer a question by Blutto, Merckx was present when LeMond had his bike checked because he equipped the 7-Eleven's)

Here are two articles in French (from L'Équipe) that I've received from the same friend of mine. I might come back to it because there are other interesting points that may be worth translating.

In any case, all we need to know is there !

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2524/001qgo.jpg
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/497/002op.jpg
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/3655/003fu.jpg

...thank you so much for pushing this forward...waiting for a translation, if that is not too much to ask for ( the linked page is almost unreadable and even if it were my understanding of French approaches zilch )....would love to get to the bottom of this once and for all...

Cheers

blutto

 

[ultimobici]

...thank you so much for pushing this forward...waiting for a translation, if that is not too much to ask for ( the linked page is almost unreadable and even if it were my understanding of French approaches zilch )....would love to get to the bottom of this once and for all...

Cheers

blutto

Important bit is this (just below photo of Lemond's bike)

"Je ne sais pas pourquoi ils ont autorisé Lemond à prendre le départ avec ce guidon, parce que je n'étais pas moi-même au Tour de France. Je plus tôt avais interdit ce guidon à Hampsten dans le Giro, car le règlement est très précis sur ce point là"

Which means (roughly)

"I do not know why they authorized Lemond to take the start with this handlebar, because I was not at the Tour de France. Earlier I had prohibited this handlebar with Hampsten at the Giro, because the rules are very precise on this point"

I wonder though how this prohibition occurred. My guess is that 7-11 asked in advance and were told that it would not be allowed rather than turning up to the start. Hence the lack of comment at the Giro. In those days turning up at the start with a whacky new fangled product would at worst result in a fine. Now they'd delay the start while consulting the rule books or emailing someone in the UCI. Then it was a phone call to a person who might not be available.

 

[Winterfold]

slaing - that's a great story.

I have a pair of those bars I use on my old 531 for TT training early season. They are very comfy but just a little high, even with no spacers. That said, i am nowhere near as fast as Fignon even when he was using them 'too high'

 

[blutto]

I've talked about all that with a friend of mine who knows a lot about 80's cycling and I've learned many other things.

1) ANDY HAMPSTEN WAS KEPT FROM RIDING THE GIRO '89 ITT's WITH THE TRI-BARS.

Just wonder why this had not been mentioned before. I didn't know it. He was defending champion on such a major race. It shouldn't have gone unnoticed.

2) About Marie's back saddle (selle à dossier):

After the Tour prologue 1986, Peter Post lodged a complaint for his rider Vanderaerden who finished second. It was rejected although the Tour ruling (I thought the race organisers were no longer in charge but apparently yes) Article 4bis said:

il demeure que les dispositifs ajoutés à la bicyclette ou a l'équipement du coureur, ou assimiliables à des carénages, seront interdits.

The devices added to the bike or the rider's equipment, or assimilated to fairing will be banned. (my translation)

Chany said: "It was exactly the case but we know there are always several interpretations of the same law"

3) About the 1987 100km TTT Worlds:

Article from L'Équipe:






Sorry, I have no time for a translation now but I might come back to it if you're interested.

...sorry to trouble you, but when time allows, if you could provide a translation or a short summary, that would be really appreciated...

...thanks in advance

Cheers

blutto

 

[Mambo95]

Two points

1) If LeMond's bars were illegal, then he would have been prevented from starting or disqualified. But, when I look at the TdF winners it says '1989 Greg Lemond'.

2) I'm guessing the OP is pouring scorn and doubt on LeMond, due to his comments about Armstrong. Even if you prove that LeMond was an arch cheat and doper, it doesn't make Armstrong innocent.

 

[blutto]

Two points

1) If LeMond's bars were illegal, then he would have been prevented from starting or disqualified. But, when I look at the TdF winners it says '1989 Greg Lemond'.

2) I'm guessing the OP is pouring scorn and doubt on LeMond, due to his comments about Armstrong. Even if you prove that LeMond was an arch cheat and doper, it doesn't make Armstrong innocent.

...for some people this is simply an interesting puzzle...for others it is always somehow about Armstrong...

...so lets just clear the air one more time...I personally think, they are both (Gregee-pooh and his Lanceness ), in their own special way, schmucks of the highest order ...

...so let's get back to the task at hand shall we, which , thanks to Echoes' contributions is getting real interesting...

...oh and by the way, wasn't Floyd Landis a winner of the TDF for a while...but things change sometimes...history is funny that way...or to paraphrase Louis O. Mink, there is always a gorilla in the room...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Race Radio]

Now the Greg stalkers have really gone off the deep end.

Does any rational person really think that the ASO is going to take the Tour from Greg because he rode a position that was used before, during and after the Tour? That has been used to win almost every TT and TTT in the last 20 years?

Their desperation is obvious....and sad.

 

[blutto]

Now the Greg stalkers have really gone off the deep end.

Does any rational person really think that the ASO is going to take the Tour from Greg because he rode a position that was used before, during and after the Tour? That has been used to win almost every TT and TTT in the last 20 years?

Their desperation is obvious....and sad.

...truth be known I'm not expecting the ASO take Greg's TDF away...but then that is really not part of their mandate is it...that would be the job of the UCI which is the body that over-looks the running of cycling around the world...they do things like set the rules of competition and make sure they are applied fairly...and that sir is the issue here...those darn rules and their fair application...

...we have now been told that Lendant was the UCI official at the Giro ( which was and still is a not insigificant event on the cycling calender )...the 89 version had Lendant LeMond Fignon Hampsten and those aero-bars...and the result was that the bars weren't used because the UCI thru its representative Lendant forbade their use...

....which once again begs the question ...why the exclusion of that bar system pre and post 89 TDF and not in the TDF itself...the rules hadn't changed...all the major players involved in the Giro decision are part of the TDF so they knew the score( and we can assume the Tour people knew the score as well )...

...a simple straight line assertion ( as you present) thru what seems like a very complex issue is not often considered an adequate answer...it is usually the tool of a desperate man who either wants to bury something that smells to high heaven or is backfilling a conclusion that really has no basis in fact...and that sir is you....

...so am I desperate?...no, actually I'm very hopeful that a mystery will be solved...but you sir are showing a great deal of desperation ...in part because I think a myth you have been hanging your life on will take a beating...

...am I sad?...no I'm really happy because I know more about this mystery that I have before...and please note that I have thru this process not run into anything that would change the ideas that I originally brought into this discussion...but for you sir, your world may be shook-up a bit or a lot depending how reasonable/humble you are( as in you may have to admit you were wrong )...but given what I've seen of you on these forums I'm not holding my breath....intellectual vanity is a very coercive thing to the reasoning functions and you sir, reek of it...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Dr. Maserati]

...truth be known I'm not expecting the ASO take Greg's TDF away...but then that is really not part of their mandate is it...that would be the job of the UCI which is the body that over-looks the running of cycling around the world...they do things like set the rules of competition and make sure they are applied fairly...and that sir is the issue here...those darn rules and their fair application...

...we have now been told that Lendant was the UCI official at the Giro ( which was and still is a not insigificant event on the cycling calender )...the 89 version had Lendant LeMond Fignon Hampsten and those aero-bars...and the result was that the bars weren't used because the UCI thru its representative Lendant forbade their use...

....which once again begs the question ...why the exclusion of that bar system pre and post 89 TDF and not in the TDF itself...the rules hadn't changed...all the major players involved in the Giro decision are part of the TDF so they knew the score( and we can assume the Tour people knew the score as well )...

...a simple straight line assertion ( as you present) thru what seems like a very complex issue is not often considered an adequate answer...it is usually the tool of a desperate man who either wants to bury something that smells to high heaven or is backfilling a conclusion that really has no basis in fact...and that sir is you....

...so am I desperate?...no, actually I'm very hopeful that a mystery will be solved...but you sir are showing a great deal of desperation ...in part because I think a myth you have been hanging your life on will take a beating...

...am I sad?...no I'm really happy because I know more about this mystery that I have before...and please note that I have thru this process not run into anything that would change the ideas that I originally brought into this discussion...but for you sir, your world may be shook-up a bit or a lot depending how reasonable/humble you are( as in you may have to admit you were wrong )...but given what I've seen of you on these forums I'm not holding my breath....intellectual vanity is a very coercive thing to the reasoning functions and you sir, reek of it...

Cheers

blutto

The 'mystery' remains as you have not been able to show which 'rule' was broken.

It looks like Fignon got a raw deal at GP Eddy Merckx by an overzealous offical.

 

[blutto]

The 'mystery' remains as you have not been able to show which 'rule' was broken.

It looks like Fignon got a raw deal at GP Eddy Merckx by an overzealous offical.

1)...the 3-point rule...or have you not had the simple courtesy to have read this thread before shooting your mouth off...it has been talked about extensively...

2)...as apparently had Hampsten in the Giro by the same official who apparently was simply applying the rules as we assume they were intended to be applied...this was, afterall, a major race in which all rule interpretations saw the light of day, that is, they had a resonance that should have been carried thruout the pro-cycling world...so if that decision had been a mistake it would have been acted on immediately to either rectify the situation or the rules... neither one of which was done...then comes the TDF and then the EMGP....so the question remains which interpretation holds true and why...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Dr. Maserati]

...the 3-point rule...

...as apparently did Hampsten in the Giro by the same official who apparently was simply applying the rules as they were intended to be applied...

Cheers

blutto

Ya - the "3 point rule".

As I said - no-one has been able to cite that rule, and then show where or how it was broken.

How can you say an offical "was simply applying the rules as they were intended to be applied" - when you can't even cite the rule?

 

[Race Radio]

...the 3-point rule...or have you not had the simple courtesy to have read this thread before shooting your mouth off...it has been talked about extensively...

...as apparently did Hampsten in the Giro by the same official who apparently was simply applying the rules as they were intended to be applied...

Cheers

blutto

Then why did Yates win the GP Merckx using the same position?

The fact remains, the position was legal. He had been used before, during and after the Tour by multiple riders. There may have been some confusion on the clip on vs one piece bars but the position was legal.

The fact also remains that the bars were ruled legal for the Tour. Fignon could have used them but he chose not to.

Time to start your letter writing campaign to the ASO to get Greg 1989 win revoked.....good luck with that.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Then why did Yates win the GP Merckx using the same position?

The fact remains, the position was legal. He had been used before, during and after the Tour by multiple riders. There may have been some confusion on the clip on vs one piece bars but the position was legal.

The fact also remains that the bars were ruled legal for the Tour. Fignon could have used them but he chose not to.

Time to start your letter writing campaign to the ASO to get Greg 1989 win revoked.....good luck with that.

Hmm, over 20 years - could be problematic.

If they want to see 'truth and justice' highlighting Cancellara on the illegal 'Shiv' might prove more productive. (actually it won't but...)

 

[red_flanders]

Hmm, over 20 years - could be problematic.

Yeah, I don't know why people want to keep dredging up cycling's past. We've all moved on. Aero bars are OK now.

Haters. Anti-American haters, every last one of 'em. Must be the French behind it all. I'm going to eat some Freedom Fries.

 

[blutto]

Hmm, over 20 years - could be problematic.

If they want to see 'truth and justice' highlighting Cancellara on the illegal 'Shiv' might prove more productive. (actually it won't but...)

...run for hills everyone...

...Greg's Familiars are flailing about trying to keep their dream alive and untarnished...

...their backs are against the wall and one can smell the desperation ( oooh!!!... really off the scale stinky...don't these people bathe regularly?...oh right, forgot, no time, protecting the dream is a 25hr/day job...run away!!!!...)...

...too bad so sad...it was a great dream while it lasted...now the Familiars are simply empty husks of their former selves...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Dr. Maserati]

...run for hills everyone...

...Greg's Familiars are flailing about trying to keep their dream alive and untarnished...

...their backs are against the wall and one can smell the desperation ( oooh!!!... really stinky...don't these people bathe regularly?...oh right, forgot, no time,protecting the dream is a 25hr/day job...run away!!!!...)...

...too bad so sad...

Cheers

blutto

I asked for something specific and all you can offer is an ad-hominem, usually the last desperate stand when you don't have anything to offer.

I will give you one more opportunity - cite which rule or regulation was broken, I will happily read it and draw my own conclusions.

 

[blutto]

I asked for something specific and all you can offer is an ad-hominem, usually the last desperate stand when you don't have anything to offer.

I will give you one more opportunity - cite which rule or regulation was broken, I will happily read it and draw my own conclusions.

...first of all..its so cool that you are giving me one more chance...you are kind beyond words...

...as the exact rule ...sorry I can't provide that...all I have is a memory of an article, memories of references to the TDF issue and references that Echoes has furnished...

...but to put the shoe on the other foot, what rule was broken by Hampsten at the Giro and Fignon at the EMPG....
same setup as LeMond's different result....so we have three "facts on the ground"...two go one way ...one goes the other...or put it another way disprove my assertion that in those rule applications something was wrong because they cannot all be right or all wrong ...so which is it...the two or the one..and why...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Race Radio]

Keep us posted on how your letter writing campaign goes. Surely there is someone, somewhere, who will understand your point and take back LeMonds Yellow jersey.

 

[blutto]

Keep us posted on how your letter writing campaign goes. Surely there is someone, somewhere, who will understand your point and take back LeMonds Yellow jersey.

...so we can assume you can't provide an explanation thru those three facts on the ground...too bad because it is one heck of a story...maybe Echoes has more information to add to the pile....

Cheers

blutto

 

[Race Radio]

...so we can assume you can't provide an explanation thru those three facts on the ground...too bad because it is one heck of a story...maybe Echoes has more information to add to the pile....

Cheers

blutto

Let us know when you have those facts because so far you have just posted "I think I remember....... some guy might have told me"

When you get your case straight I recommend contacting the UCI and ASO as soon as possible. I am sure they are anxious to take up your cause.

 

[Chuffy]

Blimey. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at all this!