First EPO users in the peloton?

[Echoes]

Okay. Can you delete it there, then?


Sniper said:

echoes, good post.

For a good hint at the use of EPO in the Netherlands in 88, check this post on Van Gennep:
viewtopic.php?p=1906774#p1906774

That said, I totally agree with your assessment that wrt epo in 88 in the Netherlands/Belgium there is a burden of evidence which has not yet been met satisfactorily.

The example of that speed skater is not really convincing to me. So far there's been no evidence that the Eastern athletes whom she was competing against used EPO (it's been discussed here). She could have used anything else, if she truly doped (or was she busted or anything?). I mean this is a cycling forum, so obviously I'm talking about cycling. I guess the Winter Olympics were much higher regarded in those days than any cycling events, so that possibly she could have been an avant-guardist or anything.

Anyway, I see no performance in the eighties that could be so astounding as to be ascribed to EPO, except perhaps Rominger in the 1989 Tour of Lombardy or perhaps the LeMond sudden come back but it's unlikely that EPO was widespread in the peloton in those years, in my opinion. Testosterone for sure, transfusion, yes but EPO, no. It all started in 1990 on wide scale: Bugno with the fastest ever Milan-Sanremo, Argentin phenixing in Flanders and Dhaenens being his runner-up and later on World Champion, Planckaert on Paris-Roubaix attacking solo in Aremberg and then staggering counter attack on the Carrefour de l'Arbre, Bugno dominating the Tour of Italy from start to finish, Ballerini and Chiappucci discovering that they were champions, etc etc.

 

[Spawn of e]

Re: Re:

Please provide links to people stating that EPO was introduced post '91 or even '93 or retract. I think THE narrative has Slaats been that the seachange visible post '91. You are using a strawman.

I said,

Hopefully this will put to bed the false narrative that says EPO made its first appearances in the peloton in 91.

And you say there is no such narrative? Okay. I'll accept that and retract. I guess we don't need to put it to bed after all.

Edit: Your assertion that I am "using a strawman", along with other things you've said recently elsewhere, would indicate that you see our mutual participation here as adversarial. I don't see it that way. I'm here to exchange information and have fun (along with moderating the forum to help it run smoothly for all). I really don't see any reason for us to be adversaries (or to to be adversaries with anyone else here, for that matter).

Am I missing something? The NYTimes article that was linked said.
"Physicians say they believe athletes began using the drug almost with the beginning of clinical trials in 1986. Then the deaths began. In 1987 five Dutch racers died suddenly. In 1988 a Belgian and two more Dutch riders died. In 1989 five more Dutch riders died, and last year three Belgians and two Dutch riders died. Transfusions of Extra Blood"

The NYT article is no good?

Maybe there is 2 things being discussed here. Has someone said LeMond was the first user of EPO? I went back and read the thread and it is obvious that the only reason the argument that EPO was not being used by cyclist as far back as 86-88 is because of another thread. Hopeless.

The NYT writer apparently didn't realize the inconveniences caused by this timeline.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

The NYT writer apparently didn't realize the inconveniences caused by this timeline.

Clearly he is not a participant in Cyclingnews Forum.

 

[pmcg76]

"We rode 6 hours on our first spin and I was pretty knackered when it was over. Next day I was stuck to the road and turned back after 2 hours. I felt drained and run down.

Normally I would take my first vitamin injection 3 months into the season, but, damn it, I needed it. So I took it and the next day I felt much better."

This is from a former pro, I am putting it here as it illustrates what a difference a simple legal injection may make to an athlete. Now if a simple B12vitamin injection can make that much of a difference in a day, imagine how much a cyclist may improve in a week if they are being treated regularly with legal products, especially if it was an athlete who was returning to their previous level having been ill. As to the cyclist, see if people can figure out who it is.

 

[Hawkwood]

"We rode 6 hours on our first spin and I was pretty knackered when it was over. Next day I was stuck to the road and turned back after 2 hours. I felt drained and run down.

Normally I would take my first vitamin injection 3 months into the season, but, damn it, I needed it. So I took it and the next day I felt much better."

This is from a former pro, I am putting it here as it illustrates what a difference a simple legal injection may make to an athlete. Now if a simple B12vitamin injection can make that much of a difference in a day, imagine how much a cyclist may improve in a week if they are being treated regularly with legal products, especially if it was an athlete who was returning to their previous level having been ill. As to the cyclist, see if people can figure out who it is.

Didn't Willy Voet say that B12 was good stuff, or have I got that wrong?

I've got Fignon's book at home, I'll double-check but I think he wrote that he first noticed the impact of EPO post 1990.

 

[Spawn of e]

"We rode 6 hours on our first spin and I was pretty knackered when it was over. Next day I was stuck to the road and turned back after 2 hours. I felt drained and run down.

Normally I would take my first vitamin injection 3 months into the season, but, damn it, I needed it. So I took it and the next day I felt much better."

This is from a former pro, I am putting it here as it illustrates what a difference a simple legal injection may make to an athlete. Now if a simple B12vitamin injection can make that much of a difference in a day, imagine how much a cyclist may improve in a week if they are being treated regularly with legal products, especially if it was an athlete who was returning to their previous level having been ill. As to the cyclist, see if people can figure out who it is.

Lance Armstring? Dave Stoller? Barry Muzzin?

What is your point inre to this thread?

 

[sniper]

Didn't Willy Voet say that B12 was good stuff, or have I got that wrong?

i doubt he ever administered *only* b12 to any procyclist.

I've got Fignon's book at home, I'll double-check but I think he wrote that he first noticed the impact of EPO post 1990.

Did Fignon admit to anything that we didn't know already before his book came out?
Remember, Millar said he didn't dope for his Olympic medal, etc. Doesn't mean much.

 

[Maxiton]

Once again, until further notice please keep discussion of LeMond in the Sidebar thread.

 

[blutto]

"We rode 6 hours on our first spin and I was pretty knackered when it was over. Next day I was stuck to the road and turned back after 2 hours. I felt drained and run down.

Normally I would take my first vitamin injection 3 months into the season, but, damn it, I needed it. So I took it and the next day I felt much better."

This is from a former pro, I am putting it here as it illustrates what a difference a simple legal injection may make to an athlete. Now if a simple B12vitamin injection can make that much of a difference in a day, imagine how much a cyclist may improve in a week if they are being treated regularly with legal products, especially if it was an athlete who was returning to their previous level having been ill. As to the cyclist, see if people can figure out who it is.

....btw from long experience would say taking of day off ( as in just doing two hours ) would have the same effect....

...and here are some real issues with this "magic bullet"....

B12 Shot Side Effects

The dosage amount and the type of B12 used appears to have some control over side effects. As a note, the common side effects of excess vitamin intake include flushing, diarrhea, nausea, and vomiting. Here are the side effects you might experience from the two common B12 shots:

Hydroxocobalamin

This form of B12 is the one we find in our food. When delivered as a B12 shot, mild side effects may include soreness at the injection site, itching, diarrhea, and swelling. Serious side effects include muscle cramping, weakness, or an irregular heartbeat. Although rare, some very serious side effects are chest pain, shortness of breath, slurred speech, sudden vision changes, and weakness on one side of the body. You should always contact your doctor immediately if you experience any of these reactions.

Cyanocobalamin

This is the synthetic version of vitamin B12 used in supplements and in the B12 shot. Mild side effects of diarrhea and swelling can occur. Serious side effects include muscle weakness, extreme thirst, confusion, shortness of breath, headache, exhaustion, reddening of the skin, and a fast or irregular heartbeat. Very serious side effects such as chest pain and difficulty breathing are rare. You should always contact your doctor immediately if you experience any of these reactions.

....there are easier and smarter ways of keeping enough B12 in the system....so you have to ask yourself why risk the side effects ?....the best idea would be solve the original problem and eat properly and you'll also more likely be able to put in more miles since you are well fueled up....

....and btw...people with chronic liver and/or kidney dysfunction should not take frequent B12 injections.....

Cheers

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

The NYT writer apparently didn't realize the inconveniences caused by this timeline.

Clearly he is not a participant in Cyclingnews Forum.

Obviously the NYT fish hack did not understand that all the real info on the subject of EPO and athletes would be etched into a stone tablet here at the CN forums.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

"We rode 6 hours on our first spin and I was pretty knackered when it was over. Next day I was stuck to the road and turned back after 2 hours. I felt drained and run down.

Normally I would take my first vitamin injection 3 months into the season, but, damn it, I needed it. So I took it and the next day I felt much better."

This is from a former pro, I am putting it here as it illustrates what a difference a simple legal injection may make to an athlete. Now if a simple B12vitamin injection can make that much of a difference in a day, imagine how much a cyclist may improve in a week if they are being treated regularly with legal products, especially if it was an athlete who was returning to their previous level having been ill. As to the cyclist, see if people can figure out who it is.

Lance Armstring? Dave Stoller? Barry Muzzin?

What is your point inre to this thread?

Definitely Stoller. He needed for his comeback after the Italians took him out.

 

[Spawn of e]

"We rode 6 hours on our first spin and I was pretty knackered when it was over. Next day I was stuck to the road and turned back after 2 hours. I felt drained and run down.

Normally I would take my first vitamin injection 3 months into the season, but, damn it, I needed it. So I took it and the next day I felt much better."

This is from a former pro, I am putting it here as it illustrates what a difference a simple legal injection may make to an athlete. Now if a simple B12vitamin injection can make that much of a difference in a day, imagine how much a cyclist may improve in a week if they are being treated regularly with legal products, especially if it was an athlete who was returning to their previous level having been ill. As to the cyclist, see if people can figure out who it is.

Lance Armstring? Dave Stoller? Barry Muzzin?

What is your point inre to this thread?

Definitely Stoller. He needed for his comeback after the Italians took him out.

No on second thought it has to be David Sommers. He had to be tired from riding across the US, being chased by dogs, etc. He had to be ready for that stage race after going from riding that POS bike around to riding all that way, then jumping into what looks to be a pro 1 2 stage race.

David must have been a freak natural talent, so much so I bet if he raced when he was young he would whip seniors with junior gears. He is such s freak that he beats Muzzin, who must be snorting amphetamines, and that roided up Russian. All by taking a vitamin shot!

 

[Semper Fidelis]

"We rode 6 hours on our first spin and I was pretty knackered when it was over. Next day I was stuck to the road and turned back after 2 hours. I felt drained and run down.

Normally I would take my first vitamin injection 3 months into the season, but, damn it, I needed it. So I took it and the next day I felt much better."

This is from a former pro, I am putting it here as it illustrates what a difference a simple legal injection may make to an athlete. Now if a simple B12vitamin injection can make that much of a difference in a day, imagine how much a cyclist may improve in a week if they are being treated regularly with legal products, especially if it was an athlete who was returning to their previous level having been ill. As to the cyclist, see if people can figure out who it is.

Lance Armstring? Dave Stoller? Barry Muzzin?

What is your point inre to this thread?

Definitely Stoller. He needed for his comeback after the Italians took him out.

No on second thought it has to be David Sommers. He had to be tired from riding across the US, being chased by dogs, etc. He had to be ready for that stage race after going from riding that POS bike around to riding all that way, then jumping into what looks to be a pro 1 2 stage race.

David must have been a freak natural talent, so much so I bet if he raced when he was young he would whip seniors with junior gears. He is such s freak that he beats Muzzin, who must be snorting amphetamines, and that roided up Russian. All by taking a vitamin shot!

Dude Brah he beat up on all those guys - Even with that hippy girlfriend Becky trying to bring him down!

He dusted that guy Muzzin aka "The Cannibal"

His brother Marcus Sommers was on the sauce because he had fake health issues. He made that crap up so he could take injections and stuff.

 

[Hawkwood]

Didn't Willy Voet say that B12 was good stuff, or have I got that wrong?

i doubt he ever administered *only* b12 to any procyclist.

I've got Fignon's book at home, I'll double-check but I think he wrote that he first noticed the impact of EPO post 1990.

Did Fignon admit to anything that we didn't know already before his book came out?
Remember, Millar said he didn't dope for his Olympic medal, etc. Doesn't mean much.

I didn't say B12 was the only thing Voet administered, I remember the case I've read his book. As for Fignon I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. If you read his book he states that `The years everything was transformed were 1991, 1992 and 1993. From then on nothing was the same again. Fignon went on to write that he was first approached about taking EPO at the end of 1992. Now if this is true it's interesting that Fignon won the Giro in 1989 and came second in the Tour the same year, EPO free. Does this mean that EPO usage was not widespread in the 1980s, and/or dosages hadn't been refined enough to produce Giro/Tour winners, allowing riders such as Fignon to continue to compete at the highest levels albeit possibly on old school meds?

 

[sniper]

...

I didn't say B12 was the only thing Voet administered, I remember the case I've read his book. As for Fignon I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. If you read his book he states that `The years everything was transformed were 1991, 1992 and 1993. From then on nothing was the same again. Fignon went on to write that he was first approached about taking EPO at the end of 1992. Now if this is true it's interesting that Fignon won the Giro in 1989 and came second in the Tour the same year, EPO free. Does this mean that EPO usage was not widespread in the 1980s, and/or dosages hadn't been refined enough to produce Giro/Tour winners, allowing riders such as Fignon to continue to compete at the highest levels albeit possibly on old school meds?

My point is: why would Fignon admit to using EPO?
The stuff he admitted to is (correct me if wrong) the stuff he got caught for (in addition to a bit about recreational drugs, but that doesn't taint his victories much anyway).

 

[sniper]

Les Earnest in 1989 with a very interesting piece on early EPO.
Seems he warned USOC and they did nothing.

Growing richer blood by Les Earnest

Recently discovered hormones offer the possibility of increasing athletes' red cell count without resorting to transfusions

Originally published in the January 1989 issue of Cyclops USA

{Comments in braces, such as this, have been added in June 2006}

{In late 1988 when it became evident that Amgen would soon release EPO as a prescription drug and I was about to begin my second decade as a director of the United States Cycling Federation (USCF), I wrote a letter to USCF Executive Director Jerry Lace pointing out that this hormone would likely come into use among cyclists. I advocated that a study be undertaken to determine if this could be done safely, with the idea that it might supplant the messier blood boosting procedures that were then in use. Mr. Lace subsequently confirmed that he had passed this advice along to U.S. Olympic Committee medical control authorities and that a study was underway. Based on that, I naively wrote the following article.}

Now that blood boosting has been banned, a new technology has appeared that may offer the same benefits to athletic performance with less mess and, perhaps, fewer risks. If it works out, this method might effectively circumvent the potential advantages of traditional blood boosting and thus eliminate it as an enforcement problem.

The blood boosting scandal that stemmed from the 1984 Olympics provided a remarkable example of unethical conduct by the USCF national coach, staff physiologist, two team physicians and First Vice President. The scheming in back of that sorry incident and the political machinations that followed are adequately documented in earlier articles [1-3] and are also discussed in a recent book [4] that is reviewed below.

Disclosures of this incident brought to the public's attention the fact that international competition in endurance events was becoming a bloody mess. It also tarnished the public image of the USCF and led to reforms in Federation regulations that were subsequently adopted by most other national and international athletic governing bodies.

A process has recently been developed for making hematopoietic hormones, which can selectively stimulate either erythrocyte (red cell) or leukocyte (white cell) development. A recent article [5] discusses the use of these hormones for treating anemia and other disorders, but the possibility of using them to elevate the red cell count of normal individuals in order to enhance athletic performance has apparently not been tested so far.

There is evidence that having a high red cell count, brought about either through high altitude training or by blood boosting, can improve athletic performance. It seems plausible that the same effect could also be brought about by the use of the new hormones. If these hormones enhance red cell count in normal individuals and have no nasty side effects, they would appear to be of potential value not only to cyclists but to some other athletes as well.

If this scheme works and is not banned by international athletic bodies, it would have the likely beneficial effect of eliminating traditional blood boosting by providing a better alternative. More research is called for to determine potential benefits and side effects. Assessment projects are underway in the USCF and USOC.

{Unfortunately, the final statement above that “Assessment projects are underway in the USCF and USOC”, which was based on assurances from USCF CEO Jerry Lace, turned out to be false. I believe that if the USOC or other national or international sports organizations had investigated EPO in a timely manner and had warned athletes of likely side effects, a number of cyclists and others who used it to boost performance would not have died prematurely.}

 

[Tienus]

Did Fignon admit to blood doping or talk about his Conconi connection?
If not then you cannot take his admissions too serious.

 

[Oldermanish]

Didn't Willy Voet say that B12 was good stuff, or have I got that wrong?

i doubt he ever administered *only* b12 to any procyclist.

I've got Fignon's book at home, I'll double-check but I think he wrote that he first noticed the impact of EPO post 1990.

Did Fignon admit to anything that we didn't know already before his book came out?
Remember, Millar said he didn't dope for his Olympic medal, etc. Doesn't mean much.

I didn't say B12 was the only thing Voet administered, I remember the case I've read his book. As for Fignon I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. If you read his book he states that `The years everything was transformed were 1991, 1992 and 1993. From then on nothing was the same again. Fignon went on to write that he was first approached about taking EPO at the end of 1992. Now if this is true it's interesting that Fignon won the Giro in 1989 and came second in the Tour the same year, EPO free. Does this mean that EPO usage was not widespread in the 1980s, and/or dosages hadn't been refined enough to produce Giro/Tour winners, allowing riders such as Fignon to continue to compete at the highest levels albeit possibly on old school meds?

It took awhile for folks to figure out how to train. A telling parallel to the EPO era was the rise in iron supplementation along with insulin. Seemed as though the next edge was training/recovery regimes and not everyone had the same coaching resources as Conconi's stable.

 

[sniper]

...
It took awhile for folks to figure out how to train. A telling parallel to the EPO era was the rise in iron supplementation along with insulin. Seemed as though the next edge was training/recovery regimes and not everyone had the same coaching resources as Conconi's stable.

in this interview from the TdF 1988 (http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?identifier=ddd%3A010611731%3Ampeg21%3Aa0264&coll=ddd), Yvan Van Mol (ADR doc) explains how he takes care of his riders. After each stage he:
- measures pulse and blood pressure
- gives the riders "the necessary preparates including injections and infusions"
- vitamin B (B1, B2, B6 and B12) and C (doesn't say whether as injections or as pills)

But that's only the basics. We're two weeks into this TdF and Van Mol explains he had his riders blood 'tested' twice already, in two cases discovering iron deficiency which he says could have led to anemia.

In addition, he gives the riders what he calls "Italian energy-releasing products", because, he says, these are absorbed quickest by the body and thus stimulate metabolism.

Any idea what he could've meant by that? Could it have been EPO?

I've been reading back into this thread, and there are pretty solid indications that EPO was fairly widespread in Europe in 88, with possible hotspots in the Netherlands (Eindhoven), Belgium, France, Italy (Conconi), possibly also Spain (Fuentes), and Scandinavia (Nordic Skiing):
- Peter Winnen says he heard rumors in 88 and recalls performances that made him suspicious
- a female American cyclist accuses Jeannie Longo of starting in 88
- Both in Calgary (Canada) and in Ferrara (Italy) EPO was being tested on athletes...in 88.
- the FIS bans EPO in 88 (meaning they knew it was being used)
- increasing amount of sudden deaths among Dutch and Belgian cyclists in 87-88 some of which rumored to be due to EPO
- Colin Sturgess recalling the year 1990, saying that EPO had been around "for ages", but that in 1990 it was becoming affordable;
- several other medical experts, athletes, officials, and others on the record mirroring rumors that the product was already in use in 88 (and possibly earlier) among cyclists, Nordic skiers and other endurance athletes.

 

[Oldermanish]

But that's only the basics. We're two weeks into this TdF and Van Mol explains he had his riders blood 'tested' twice already, in two cases discovering iron deficiency which he says could have led to anemia.

In addition, he gives the riders what he calls "Italian energy-releasing products", because, he says, these are absorbed quickest by the body and thus stimulate metabolism.

Any idea what he could've meant by that? Could it have been EPO?

[/This was an ideal quote, thanks. Yes...when you take your natural hematocrit from 41 to 60 you might notice a little lack of iron/red cell ratio. You have to wonder if the incidence of liver cancer will start showing up in former pros about...now?color]

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re:

Did Fignon admit to blood doping or talk about his Conconi connection?
If not then you cannot take his admissions too serious.

True. I can't imagine he'd say yes to one injection and no to another.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re: Re:

I don't know when Rooks started taking EPO, but it's obvious to me why he would claim it was only in late 91.
He's trying to pretend the intralipid affair wasn't EPO

bingo.

guyincognito, i asked you a question upthread re: Lemond investing in Montgomery Securities.
Had you heard about that before?
If so, any ideas on the time line of that investment?


edit: maybe no bingo after all, but was a good thought nonetheless

I don't know any more than was said by others there.

I don't know when Rooks started taking EPO, but it's obvious to me why he would claim it was only in late 91.
He's trying to pretend the intralipid affair wasn't EPO

Rooks wasn't at PDM in 91 so had nothing to do with him.

I know, but that team was his family in a way and he was a big part of it, as well as associated with it.
And if he admits to doing EPO that early he brings suspicions over how good he really was. With testosterone he can still claim everyone did it and the effect wasn't huge.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Anyway, I see no performance in the eighties that could be so astounding as to be ascribed to EPO

Roche's 1987, but it's a bit early (although he was with the one team where it was possible) and had a lot to do with many stars being injured or otherwise absent

, except perhaps Rominger in the 1989 Tour of Lombardy

38% Hct from Ferrari's files. First race on EPO was Vuelta 1990

or perhaps the LeMond sudden come back

Not touching that, I'll leave it for the LeMond topic

but it's unlikely that EPO was widespread in the peloton in those years, in my opinion.

Impossible, I would say.
What I want to know is who was on it in 90 and especially in the 80s. I'm absolutely fascinated by that question for some reason.

It all started in 1990 on wide scale: Bugno with the fastest ever Milan-Sanremo, Argentin phenixing in Flanders and Dhaenens being his runner-up and later on World Champion, Planckaert on Paris-Roubaix attacking solo in Aremberg and then staggering counter attack on the Carrefour de l'Arbre, Bugno dominating the Tour of Italy from start to finish, Ballerini and Chiappucci discovering that they were champions, etc etc.

Other than Planckaert at Roubaix that I'm not very familiar with, those are the ones that come to mind. Halupczok at that Giro as well. Indurain being the strongest man at the Tour out of nowhere. Breukink suddenly going minutes faster than he had before (would've won the Tour if not for one single bad day). Maybe we can add Giovanetti to the list?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
I don't know any more than was said by others there.

good, because on the previous page you said some like

... when I saw the topic bumped I really thought something new would be here....nope.

so i assumed if anybody knows more about that montgomery investment it must be guyincognito.

 

[sniper]

...
The example of that speed skater is not really convincing to me. So far there's been no evidence that the Eastern athletes whom she was competing against used EPO (it's been discussed here).

In 88 they were testing EPO in Calgary.
So it's a fact that EPO was available to some in those Olympic days.
If you then ask "what suspicious performances did we see?", well, Van Gennep most def. springs to mind.
There are also rumors of Dutch city Eindhoven having been a hotspot for early EPO (cf. PSV's performances in 88). If so, Van Gennep may well have been one of the early users.

Her East German competitors probably used old school blood transfusions, but can't be sure.
Note that there is evidence of EPO circulating in 1988 in most traditional cycling countries and in Scandinavia, but to my knowledge there isn't much (if any) evidence of EPO being used in East Germany in those early days. Which makes sense, I guess, considering the not-so-healthy relations between the US (EPO's place of birth) and communist countries in those days.


On a side, one problem with the early history of EPO is that there were (at least) two kinds of EPO, one focused on the US and one focused on non-US markets:

In 1988 Amgen launched its epoetin alfa product, sold under license by J&J and its subsidiaries under a variety of commercial names (Eprex, Erypo, Epopen, Epoxitin, Globuren, Espo...) whose therapeutic indication was the treatment of anemia.
...
In 1988 the non-US markets also saw the launch of another EPO product, called Recormon (epoetin beta), whose indication was the treatment of anemia in patients with chronic renal failure

http://www.med.uio.no/helsam/forskning/nettverk/hero/publikasjoner/skriftserie/2006/HERO2006_3.pdf

It's not impossible that non-US EPO turned out to be (much) more risky health-wise.
Add to that the fact that there were controlled clinical trials in the US whereas in Europe the 'testing' of EPO was done in uncontrolled settings...directly on athletes.

Just saying, merely looking at (alleged) EPO-deaths is not gonna tell us the whole story of early users.
My money is still on the 1990 whistleblower simply speaking the truth.