First EPO users in the peloton?

[Darryl Webster]

LeMond was no longer with the US Olympic programme by 84, he had been pro since 81 and already shown his abilities before 84.

.

At the Junior World Championships in 1979 in Argentina Lemond won the road race, took silver in the individual persuit and a bronze as a member of the TTT team. I was a member of the British TTT team in my international debut.
I had the oppertunity to watch Lemond in the individual persuit and RR and he was massivly impressive.
In 83 , just 4 years later he was World Pro Champ In Switzerland and again I was fortunate to witness his victory being there myself as part of the British team for the 100km TTT.
Lemonds last lap atack was one of the most amazing attacks I`ve ever seen not so much for its speed ( obviously high) but for his courage descending.
In 89 I rode the early seson Tour Of Americas in my debut with Teka, the Spanish team and Lemond was in the field. He appeared out of condition and a few pounds over weight but whats important he wasnt geting dropped but gritting his teath and hanging in there.
That by July he was in condition to win by the closest margin in TDF history ( a victory owed to his final TT use of Tri bars was no miracle..he just worked bloody hard.
At the time I was gobsmaked by that TT..as was everyone I knew...but then very few people had any idea what the actual advantage was to tri bars and no one I knew thought it would be as great as it`s turned out to be.
Also worth remembering that Fignon had a severe saddle boil which would not only be painfull but would sugest an infection, so that certainly would not have helped his cause. Secondly, and I always felt somat a lot off peeps failed to notice, Fignons choice of a front disc wheel alone ( and subsequent handling issues) might have made the differance between being beet by 8 seconds for GC or Winning by 1.
Taking absalutly nothing away from Greg but it realy would be fair to describe that tour as the one Fignon lost rather than the one Lemond won.
It broke Fignon.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

So there was no benefit to Moser or the US LA Olympic team?

I believe their VAM stayed the same.

 

[Le breton]

Alexi Grewal

So there was no benefit to Moser or the US LA Olympic team?

There have been several mentions of the track US team at the 84 olympics, but the road team as well did use transfusions.
I am surprised nobody mentionned Zoetemelk who had some condition following a 1974 accident (midi Libre) resulting in chronic anemia. He used repeatedly homologous transfusions in the 76 TdF. Did not make a secret of it. google transfusion zoetemelk for a link to De mondenard dictionary.

 

[Escarabajo]

i believe their vam stayed the same.

lol.......

 

[NashbarShorts]

Andy Hampsten always claimed he was squeaky clean but I wouldnt rely on that but if he was, then add another Giro to the list of clean victories.

Actually, I see Hampsten as a great example of a guy who rode/stayed clean. He showed his ability early ('84 Coors classic, hung w/ Lemond despite riding as pro/am w/ Team Raleigh?), then never exceeded that ability level. 4th in debut Tour, but never "jumped" to the next higher level. Great Giro win, but never a Tour winner.

 

[NashbarShorts]

The main reason why roids have been used in endurance sports is that they aid recovery. Of course they are going to be more useful in stage races. Why don't you try to explain how they are more effective in a one day race?

Wha??

One-day races are about brute strength and tearing the legs off of the other guys. Thus, steroids as preparation. Steroids build bigger muscles. No?

3-week Grand Tours are about suffering and recovery.

EPO = more oxygen, greater effort w/o going anaerobic. Ie, "less suffering".
HGH/testoserone = overnite recovery. Easier to get out of bed the next day and climb on the saddle for 8hrs.

Admittedly, I'm no expert, but I think this is correct. If you can explain how steroids could be ingested and aid overnite recovery, pls expand...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

There have been several mentions of the track US team at the 84 olympics, but the road team as well did use transfusions.
I am surprised nobody mentionned Zoetemelk who had some condition following a 1974 accident (midi Libre) resulting in chronic anemia. He used repeatedly homologous transfusions in the 76 TdF. Did not make a secret of it. google transfusion zoetemelk for a link to De mondenard dictionary.

On the USA team blood doping, all 7 were on the track team - with one rider (IIRC) Rebeccca Twig doing both road & track**


Great stuff on Zoetemelk - although a quick search** shows it happened once after his injury. Perhaps in fairness to the OP it is worth opening a seperate thread on Blood doping?! Thoughts?

** I am struggling with a bad connection on a work computer- so can only do quick search without links I have saved.(If wrong i will correct info accordingly)

 

[tockit]

Wha??

Admittedly, I'm no expert, but I think this is correct. If you can explain how steroids could be ingested and aid overnite recovery, pls expand...

The effect of anabolic steroids on muscle mass is caused in at least two ways: first, they increase the production of proteins; second, they reduce recovery time by blocking the effects of stress hormone cortisol on muscle tissue, so that catabolism of muscle is greatly reduced.

 

[NashbarShorts]

The effect of anabolic steroids on muscle mass is caused in at least two ways: first, they increase the production of proteins; second, they reduce recovery time by blocking the effects of stress hormone cortisol on muscle tissue, so that catabolism of muscle is greatly reduced.

yeah, but I think what you just quoted is in terms of "building" muscle mass, that is, bigger muscles?

As in, I want bigger quads. I can do squats w/ big weight, causing tiny microfiber tears in the muscle. "Recovery" occurs as the muscle repairs itself, and grows bigger in the process. Anabolic 'roids would be of use here, as my quads "recover" faster, and gain mass more quickly

I think that is inherently different than the concept of "recovery" in cycling, no? Cyclists in a GT don't want bigger muscle mass. They want to be able to get back on the bike the next day.

Maybe we're splitting hairs here, but I think the original supposition I was challenging was that a rider of the pre-EPO era could actively taking muscle mass-building 'roids during a 3wk Tour, and gaining same/similar benefits as a later EPO user. ??? Just doesn't seem correct.

 

[Kennf1]

Wha??

One-day races are about brute strength and tearing the legs off of the other guys. Thus, steroids as preparation. Steroids build bigger muscles. No?

No. Anabolic steroids are used to build muscle. Corticosteroids are used for anti-inflammatory/recovery. Not saying that cyclist have never used anabolics, but they probably fell by the wayside in favor of the cortico- drugs after the '90s.

 

[Kennf1]

There have been several mentions of the track US team at the 84 olympics, but the road team as well did use transfusions.
I am surprised nobody mentionned Zoetemelk who had some condition following a 1974 accident (midi Libre) resulting in chronic anemia. He used repeatedly homologous transfusions in the 76 TdF. Did not make a secret of it. google transfusion zoetemelk for a link to De mondenard dictionary.

Nobody on the men's road team has admitted to transfusions, and Phinney has specifically denied it (after being presented with the opportunity by the ever-helpful Eddy B). Not saying they were angels, and in fact, Grewal has admitted to other doping practices, but just stating the facts (as known).

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Though this probably won't resolve everything in many's minds, here is a link to a Sports Illustrated article that details the use of the 1984 US Olympic team's use of blood doping.

I would also recommend people read Faust's Gold, about former East German doping program. Steroids were used as far back as the 1960's, and blood packing (doping) very prevalent in the 1970's. This is not to imply there thus had to be blood doping in pro cycling during the 70's and 80's, and I stand with those that say it was rarely done in cycling, but this is a study well worth reading.

 

[andy1234]

Ok - so you would like me to ignore the investigations that showed the only blood doping in cycling in Italy was Moser, to keep alive your "speculation & common sense" that there was blood doping going on?


I will admit, for a moment I was going to put up with your 'consideration' - but, no - why should I?

If you have something - I will give it the time, I love new information.

If not Polish starts plenty of frivolous threads to debate nonsensical issues on.

Your confusing a debate with an investigation here.

If you dont want to listen to me because I can't provide hard facts thats fair enough, but to be fair I'm not stating my theory as fact.

If everyone was as pragmatic, nothing new would ever be discussed.

 

[andy1234]

I believe their VAM stayed the same.

So blood doping (tranfusion) does not work?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Andy - I don't think he's saying that at all. I can't speak for him, but I believe what he is saying isn't that different from you. It's likely some riders tried blood doping during that time, but it wasn't nearly as well tested and refined as a PED as it is now and more of an unknown, with some fear attached to it.

But there are simply no hard facts showing it happened other than what we listed by the DDR, Lasse Viren, and 1984 US cycling track team, and Joop's transfusion, the impetus of which was health related. Most anything beyond there is pure speculation, and the numbers in power output, and speeds simply don't indicate that whatever blood doping was going on in the 1980's was very effective, certainly nothing compared to what riders and their medical staff in the last decade refined and accomplished.

 

[Von Mises]

But there are simply no hard facts showing it happened other than what we listed by the DDR, Lasse Viren, and 1984 US cycling track team, and Joop's transfusion,

Where are hard facts that Viren doped (blood)? Never heard of these...

 

[andy1234]

Andy - I don't think he's saying that at all. I can't speak for him, but I believe what he is saying isn't that different from you. It's likely some riders tried blood doping during that time, but it wasn't nearly as well tested and refined as a PED as it is now and more of an unknown, with some fear attached to it.

But there are simply no hard facts showing it happened other than what we listed by the DDR, Lasse Viren, and 1984 US cycling track team, and Joop's transfusion, the impetus of which was health related. Most anything beyond there is pure speculation, and the numbers in power output, and speeds simply don't indicate that whatever blood doping was going on in the 1980's was very effective, certainly nothing compared to what riders and their medical staff in the last decade refined and accomplished.

Maybe Dr M and I are getting our wires crossed, Im sure he will let me know one way or the other.

I have not suggested that blood doping was widespread in the pro peleton in the 80s, just that it is highly likely that some of the riders were using it.
If an advantage can be sought, especially one that is proven to be effective, someone will be using it.

The technology was there to do it, the expertise was there to do it, and the desire from the riders was there to do it.
As far as fear goes, the same riders were taking products designed for the veterinary world, so Im not sure they were that reserved about what they put in their bodies.

On the point of effectiveness, I agree that performance gains were probably not comparable to the refined methods of today, but some individuals would only need to be given a hope of a performance increase in order to use a product or method. A 1% gain is better then nothing at all.

I just don't believe that because there is no documented evidence of its use that it wasnt happening.

 

[pmcg76]

At the Junior World Championships in 1979 in Argentina Lemond won the road race, took silver in the individual persuit and a bronze as a member of the TTT team. I was a member of the British TTT team in my international debut.
I had the oppertunity to watch Lemond in the individual persuit and RR and he was massivly impressive.
In 83 , just 4 years later he was World Pro Champ In Switzerland and again I was fortunate to witness his victory being there myself as part of the British team for the 100km TTT.
Lemonds last lap atack was one of the most amazing attacks I`ve ever seen not so much for its speed ( obviously high) but for his courage descending.
In 89 I rode the early seson Tour Of Americas in my debut with Teka, the Spanish team and Lemond was in the field. He appeared out of condition and a few pounds over weight but whats important he wasnt geting dropped but gritting his teath and hanging in there.
That by July he was in condition to win by the closest margin in TDF history ( a victory owed to his final TT use of Tri bars was no miracle..he just worked bloody hard.
At the time I was gobsmaked by that TT..as was everyone I knew...but then very few people had any idea what the actual advantage was to tri bars and no one I knew thought it would be as great as it`s turned out to be.
Also worth remembering that Fignon had a severe saddle boil which would not only be painfull but would sugest an infection, so that certainly would not have helped his cause. Secondly, and I always felt somat a lot off peeps failed to notice, Fignons choice of a front disc wheel alone ( and subsequent handling issues) might have made the differance between being beet by 8 seconds for GC or Winning by 1.
Taking absalutly nothing away from Greg but it realy would be fair to describe that tour as the one Fignon lost rather than the one Lemond won.
It broke Fignon.

Daryl

Perhaps you can add to my list of teams where there didnt seem to be any mention of Blood transfusions or EPO pre 1990.

Did you hear about these things whilst with Teka, I know you might not have been tight with the Spaniards but there were a few guys you must have talked with, any mention of these subjects.

 

[Fester]

Though this probably won't resolve everything in many's minds, here is a link to a Sports Illustrated article that details the use of the 1984 US Olympic team's use of blood doping.

I would also recommend people read Faust's Gold, about former East German doping program. Steroids were used as far back as the 1960's, and blood packing (doping) very prevalent in the 1970's. This is not to imply there thus had to be blood doping in pro cycling during the 70's and 80's, and I stand with those that say it was rarely done in cycling, but this is a study well worth reading.

I read somewhere that the Germans had synthesized testosterone in the early 1930's and had treated their athlete's with it at the 1936 Olympics. I'd love to see that article again. I was gob smacked by how relatively advanced doping was back then.

 

[Escarabajo]

...
On the point of effectiveness, I agree that performance gains were probably not comparable to the refined methods of today, but some individuals would only need to be given a hope of a performance increase in order to use a product or method. A 1% gain is better then nothing at all.

I just don't believe that because there is no documented evidence of its use that it wasnt happening.

Why would you want to do a risky and dangerous blood transfusion during the Tour for 1% performance increase? What type of blood transfusion would give you 1% increase in performance? Wouldn't you take other PED's instead because of money and logistics for 1% increase?

Whatever they did was really not refined by any means based on power output calculations. So honestly this blood transfusion technique during a grand Tour in the 80's sounds not believable. If it happened there was no trace, no gossip, no confessions, and no power output calculations that ever came close to proving that point. There was really nothing. So it is hard to believe that something like this ever happened.

 

[131313]

Andy - I don't think he's saying that at all. I can't speak for him, but I believe what he is saying isn't that different from you. It's likely some riders tried blood doping during that time, but it wasn't nearly as well tested and refined as a PED as it is now and more of an unknown, with some fear attached to it.

But there are simply no hard facts showing it happened other than what we listed by the DDR, Lasse Viren, and 1984 US cycling track team, and Joop's transfusion, the impetus of which was health related. Most anything beyond there is pure speculation, and the numbers in power output, and speeds simply don't indicate that whatever blood doping was going on in the 1980's was very effective, certainly nothing compared to what riders and their medical staff in the last decade refined and accomplished.

I agree with your general conclusion about its prevalence, but I disagree with the bolded part. The efficacy of blood doping was well-known by the early eighties, and there was a significant amount of research on the subject. This paper summarizes much of the research: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1478635/pdf/brjsmed00034-0022.pdf

I don't know if it was fear, logistics or tradition which kept the practice from being widespread (or some combination of those things), but the knowledge and ability was certainly there. In retrospect, traveling with a donor of known health status and the same blood type would have been the way to go. Avoid the storage issues all together.

 

[andy1234]

Why would you want to do a risky and dangerous blood transfusion during the Tour for 1% performance increase? What type of blood transfusion would give you 1% increase in performance? Wouldn't you take other PED's instead because of money and logistics for 1% increase?

Whatever they did was really not refined by any means based on power output calculations. So honestly this blood transfusion technique during a grand Tour in the 80's sounds not believable. If it happened there was no trace, no gossip, no confessions, and no power output calculations that ever came close to proving that point. There was really nothing. So it is hard to believe that something like this ever happened.

1% was a random figure, surely that was obvious?
I was making a point about riders seeking any advatage they could get.
I also never limited it to grand tours, there are lots of races on the pro calendar.

 

[peloton]

Where are hard facts that Viren doped (blood)? Never heard of these...

+1

l'd like to see that as well.

 

[Escarabajo]

1% was a random figure, surely that was obvious?
I was making a point about riders seeking any advatage they could get.
I also never limited it to grand tours, there are lots of races on the pro calendar.

I am not sure about the 1% you picked to be random, because coincidentally that is the number that some experts have said the amphetamines (1-2%) advantage was in the 80's. So to choose this number would make the doping very plausible to be performed on the top contenders without being noticed. As opposed to 10-20% of the newer methods which would dramatically stick out among the contenders.

I am not an expert on these blood transfusions but I know the death rate of red cells to be higher and higher as time progresses (30-45 days) to a point where the efficiency of doing the blood transfusion would be worthless. I am sure Doctors even then knew that so I am skeptical about why they would perform these risky and complicated procedures for such small gains. I am not even sure if after this time it would be health compromising.

Again, nobody would do the blood doping without knowing the clear advantage that they were getting out of it.

I refer only to GT’s. Who cares about doing a blood transfusion to win a Dauphine in the 80’s. Please give me a break. As for a one day race, could be very plausible but I thought we were only focused on the GT’s. To be honest I will not argue with you about doing the blood transfusion for a 1 day race. In fact, I don’t care.

Thanks.

 

[blutto]

I am not sure about the 1% you picked to be random, because coincidentally that is the number that some experts have said the amphetamines (1-2%) advantage was in the 80's. So to choose this number would make the doping very plausible to be performed on the top contenders without being noticed. As opposed to 10-20% of the newer methods which would dramatically stick out among the contenders.

I am not an expert on these blood transfusions but I know the death rate of red cells to be higher and higher as time progresses (30-45 days) to a point where the efficiency of doing the blood transfusion would be worthless. I am sure Doctors even then knew that so I am skeptical about why they would perform these risky and complicated procedures for such small gains. I am not even sure if after this time it would be health compromising.

Again, nobody would do the blood doping without knowing the clear advantage that they were getting out of it.

I refer only to GT’s. Who cares about doing a blood transfusion to win a Dauphine in the 80’s. Please give me a break. As for a one day race, could be very plausible but I thought we were only focused on the GT’s. To be honest I will not argue with you about doing the blood transfusion for a 1 day race. In fact, I don’t care.

Thanks.

...don't mean to point out the obvious but 1% of a 100 hours ( the time kinda/sort-of a GT ) is 1 hour...so where does that put 1 min. or 24 sec or 8 sec...or put another way the only advantage you need in a photo finish is what %wise...

Cheers

blutto