Fix or remove TTT

[hornet]

Options to fix the TTT (to prevent dominant teams from spoiling a good race):

1. Shorten it. A TTT that is only 25kms would sufficiently shake things up without destroying the race.
2. Use a highly technical circuit - worked a treat this time.
3. Remove "5th riders time" rule - making it more like an "Italian pursuit" or "Olympic Sprint" would be interesting - ie, to see if Lance waited for Contador or attacked!
4. Have 2 TTTs - 1 on the flat and 1 up a mountain (WITH the "5th riders time rule").
5. Remove it

Others?

 

[mr. tibbs]

I bet Menchov and Evans are both leaning towards option five right about now...

 

[benpounder]

Options to fix the TTT...

What's the matter? Your favorite rider/team get smoked today?

More importantly though, you ought to read the threads already posted in case this topic is already being discussed. Otherwise you may come off as a newbie with only one post to your name.

Not against new posters, just against repetitive threads...

 

[forty four]

i agree with the first post and his suggestions i think the ttt should stay with some changes. teams with lots of money and sway have an unfair advantage in the ttt and it ruins other gc contenders standings which makes the race less exciting. my opinion is not based on my favorite team doing bad mine did well.

 

[Anonymous]

Wouldn't this thread have worked just as well: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=1911

 

[Bagster]

Options to fix the TTT (to prevent dominant teams from spoiling a good race):

1. Shorten it. A TTT that is only 25kms would sufficiently shake things up without destroying the race.
2. Use a highly technical circuit - worked a treat this time.
3. Remove "5th riders time" rule - making it more like an "Italian pursuit" or "Olympic Sprint" would be interesting - ie, to see if Lance waited for Contador or attacked!
4. Have 2 TTTs - 1 on the flat and 1 up a mountain (WITH the "5th riders time rule").
5. Remove it

Others?

They could readopt the limited time loss model the used a few years ago whereby there was a maximum time a team could lose depending on the distance raced.

Thought it was pretty crap myself, personally would rather see them ditch the TTT. But hey being a Lance fanboy I can't say I'm unhappy with the way things went today, was great to see the old fella taking some big pulls on the front. Not as many as Cancellara I have to say but being a Cancellara fanboy too I'm glad he stayed in yellow.

 

[Jayarbie]

Options to fix the TTT (to prevent dominant teams from spoiling a good race):

1. Shorten it. A TTT that is only 25kms would sufficiently shake things up without destroying the race.
2. Use a highly technical circuit - worked a treat this time.
3. Remove "5th riders time" rule - making it more like an "Italian pursuit" or "Olympic Sprint" would be interesting - ie, to see if Lance waited for Contador or attacked!
4. Have 2 TTTs - 1 on the flat and 1 up a mountain (WITH the "5th riders time rule").
5. Remove it

Others?

Yeah, how about this?

(6) Get a better team and quit whining.

 

[hornet]

What's the matter? Your favorite rider/team get smoked today?

Some went backwards, some went forwards. But one team now has 5 of the top 7 riders, and only time will tell if this makes or breaks the race.

More importantly though, you ought to read the threads already posted in case this topic is already being discussed. Otherwise you may come off as a newbie with only one post to your name.

Not against new posters, just against repetitive threads...

But they're full of "that's already been discussed certificates", personal flames, and "you're new here" posts..

By starting a new thread with a specific subtopic (ideas for improvement) - I'd avoid all of that.

D'oh!

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Some went backwards, some went forwards. But one team now has 5 of the top 7 riders, and only time will tell if this makes or breaks the race.



But they're full of "that's already been discussed certificates", personal flames, and "you're new here" posts..

By starting a new thread with a specific subtopic (ideas for improvement) - I'd avoid all of that.

D'oh!

ehh no it's the same topic, just post in there.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=1911

 

[Ninety5rpm]

ehh no it's the same topic, just post in there.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=1911

Actually, that thread topic was specific about the course, this one is about the problem of a strong team giving an individual an advantage over another one on a weaker team.

Personally, I prefer 12 shorter threads on more specific topics rather than 4 more general/longer threads.

Anyway... The TTT has been "fixed" in some years by limiting how much time can be lost on an individual basis.

The point is every year is different. The TTs are different, the mountains are different, the course is different, and, yes, whether there is a TTT or not, and what the specific rules are varies too. Key to winning a tdf in a particular year is to be prepared for what they throw it you that year... they certainly provide plenty of notice. It's not like the announced that there will be a "free for all" TTT a week before the Tour.

 

[Publicus]

Or you know you could train on the course. I lost a little respect for Menchov when I read he only road the course once before the actual TTT. Makes no sense in his case--Rabo has the funds, he is definitely a contender and he knows that other teams are stronger at the discipline.

 

[supercool]

use it more!

the team time trial is rad, give me a break..!!

it could not have been a more exciting day. crashes galore and Armstrong and Contador (and levi and klodi) gaping the rest of the peloton in only 39k?

lol that is about the coolest bike racing i've seen in a while!

hard race = the best riders win

is not that how racing is supposed to work?

most epic day ever with the 0 sec GC margin, also

 

[byu123]

ehh no it's the same topic, just post in there.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=1911

Don't get all the whining about the TTT. Fact of the matter, TDF relies on team effort to win GC (ask Cadel). Doing good at TTT is one aspect. Moreoever, Astana rode and practiced on the TTT course at least 5 times. Garmin did the same. Rabobank and Menchov only previewed the morning of the TTT. The respective preparation and lack thereof showed. Easy to chalk the differences up to money but cohesion and preparation played a much bigger roll. Surprise, Surprise, to do well in the TDF you have to have smart preparation and team coordination.

 

[patswana]

Get rid of it.

The only interest in this Tour now is whether Armstrong & Contador come to blows or whether the entire Astana team (minus Rast & Murayev?) test positive.

 

[Buninyong Bunny]

Don't get all the whining about the TTT. Fact of the matter, TDF relies on team effort to win GC (ask Cadel). Doing good at TTT is one aspect. Moreoever, Astana rode and practiced on the TTT course at least 5 times. Garmin did the same. Rabobank and Menchov only previewed the morning of the TTT. The respective preparation and lack thereof showed. Easy to chalk the differences up to money but cohesion and preparation played a much bigger roll. Surprise, Surprise, to do well in the TDF you have to have smart preparation and team coordination.

You surely can't deny that this TTT has damaged a lot of the interest in the later parts of the race and now allows one team to dominate - even if they did earn that right fair and square. Surely everyone can understand that is a bad thing as a specator spectical, even if it's all fair as a sport.

 

[unsheath]

^^ So you enjoy seeing riders crash then? Perhaps you should be following another sport mate? Goose!

 

[byu123]

You surely can't deny that this TTT has damaged a lot of the interest in the later parts of the race and now allows one team to dominate - even if they did earn that right fair and square. Surely everyone can understand that is a bad thing as a specator spectical, even if it's all fair as a sport.

Yeah and watching golf sucks because Tiger Woods is too damn good. Watching Jordan dominate also sucked cuz he was too damn good, practiced too hard, and was too good. Give me a friggin break. Ya'll have been infected by political correctness (gee we all need to be winners so no one feels bad). This is real world competition at the highest level, the TDF, not a Kindergarten game of kickball. Waa Waa Waa . . . my favorite guy sucked today and lost time and now its no fun. Why can't they all just hold hands and ride the TTT as one big happy "world team" of 180 riders.

Pathetic.

 

[BroDeal]

The previous management of the Tour realized how a TTT tilts the race chances to the bigger budget teams. That is why they were using formulas to limit the time lost. The new management is intent on learning these lessons all over.

The simple solution is to give modest time bonuses to the first, second, and third teams, like twenty, twelve, and eight seconds. You keep the spectacle, which is beautiful, but prevent it from damaging the GC.

From the point of view of wanting a good GC race, team time trials are just stupid--this one especially so. The big budget teams already have a large advantage. There is no reason to give them an even larger one. It is dumb to have nearly all the GC contenders eliminated on the fourth day. It is easy to argue that it is the fault of the eliminated conteders--a lot of that is true--but the bottom line is that we are now left with very few riders who can win and the race just became much less interesting.

I am also required to add that Evans and his team are morons.

 

[byu123]

The previous management of the Tour realized how a TTT tilts the race chances to the bigger budget teams. That is why they were using formulas to limit the time lost. The new management is intent on learning these lessons all over.

The simple solution is to give modest time bonuses to the first, second, and third teams, like twenty, twelve, and eight seconds. You keep the spectacle, which is beautiful, but prevent it from damaging the GC.

From the point of view of wanting a good GC race, team time trials are just stupid--this one especially so. The big budget teams already have a large advantage. There is no reason to give them an even larger one. It is dumb to have nearly all the GC contenders eliminated on the fourth day. It is easy to argue that it is the fault of the eliminated conteders--a lot of that is true--but the bottom line is that we are now left with very few riders who can win and the race just became much less interesting.

I am also required to add that Evans and his team are morons.

All the money in the world would not have made a difference for at least some of the time lost as a result of the stupid mistakes made by Cadel and Menchov today. Sure money makes some difference but Cadel and Menchov managed to screw things up by themselves money not withstanding.

 

[BroDeal]

Yeah and watching golf sucks because Tiger Woods is too damn good. Watching Jordan dominate also sucked cuz he was too damn good, practiced too hard, and was too good. Give me a friggin break. Ya'll have been infected by political correctness (gee we all need to be winners so no one feels bad). This is real world competition at the highest level, the TDF, not a Kindergarten game of kickball. Waa Waa Waa . . . my favorite guy sucked today and lost time and now its no fun. Why can't they all just hold hands and ride the TTT as one big happy "world team" of 180 riders.

Pathetic.

What is pathetic is a guy who does not ride and only watches Armstrong using a bike avatar to--what?--give him more street cred.

Yeah, it must be pathetic that people would like to see a close fought competition that is not decided until late in the race. If you Lance saddle sniffers could actually pull back away from Armstrong's backside maybe you could see the wider implications of whether this will end up being a good race.

 

[Buninyong Bunny]

Yeah and watching golf sucks because Tiger Woods is too damn good. Watching Jordan dominate also sucked cuz he was too damn good, practiced too hard, and was too good. Give me a friggin break. Ya'll have been infected by political correctness (gee we all need to be winners so no one feels bad). This is real world competition at the highest level, the TDF, not a Kindergarten game of kickball. Waa Waa Waa . . . my favorite guy sucked today and lost time and now its no fun. Why can't they all just hold hands and ride the TTT as one big happy "world team" of 180 riders.

Pathetic.

Dude you examples are false anyway. Golf is genuinely more interesting when people take it up to Woods in the majors. If he wins anyway because he does work harder - that's cool, but it's the contest that makes the sport. I'm not sooking because my guy didn't win (I always knew that Evans was going to lose buckets of time, so it's not like I'm in denial), my point is simply that this race can be dominated by one team, which makes it less interesting to watch.

Which is true even if Astana deserve to win from there performance last night. And they do deserve there reward because they did prepare better than Slience/Rabo. I admit that. I'm simply looking at it from a sporting CONTEST point of view.

 

[byu123]

What is pathetic is a guy who does not ride and only watches Armstrong using a bike avatar to--what?--give him more street cred.

Yeah, it must be pathetic that people would like to see a close fought competition that is not decided until late in the race. If you Lance saddle sniffers could actually pull back away from Armstrong's backside maybe you could see the wider implications of whether this will end up being a good race.

No I really am a bike riding Cheetah. Nothing more pathetic than one anonymous Internet blog moniker trying to trash talk another anonymous Internet blog moniker. For what??? THAT . . . is pathetic.

 

[Snake8]

As was said in the other thread, the Tour route was presented in October. Its not like the riders/teams were not aware of this stage and its importance to doing a good tour. The strongest team won today. The team in second place was well aware of how important a good showing in the TTT is. That the other teams can't figure this out has nothing to do with budgets, it has to do with brains (and TT talent/brawn).

This and the other thread DO overlap, btw. Other one is better....but i like what the OP has to add, so maybe re-post over there...

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=39557

 

[Snake8]

Get rid of it.

The only interest in this Tour now is whether Armstrong & Contador come to blows or whether the entire Astana team (minus Rast & Murayev?) test positive.

Ah another Cadel fanboy cries in his beer.

 

[BroDeal]

All the money in the world would not have made a difference for at least some of the time lost as a result of the stupid mistakes made by Cadel and Menchov today. Sure money makes some difference but Cadel and Menchov managed to screw things up by themselves money not withstanding.

That is the point of the last line, you moron. If you had actually raced or ridden a bike then you would know that Evans and Menchov had an opportunity to limit their losses by having their team practice time trialing during training camps and by reconning the course. Their practice sessions should have been done on terrain that approximates the TdF course. Even though their teams are not strong in this discipline, on a technical course careful preparation should have been an immense help.

Manolo Saiz' Liberty Seguros and ONCE teams used to put up very good TTT performances. That was due in LS's case more to a well drilled team that spectacular individual riders. A technical course offers the possibilities for even larger gains from skill than a typical TTT course. SL and Rabo blew an opportunity.

Evans is a moron because he should have been inisisting that the required preparation took place before the Tour. I won't say the same for Menchov, even though he made the mistake, because Menchov has two and half GTs to his name; he is not a total loser.