FL Stage 17

[Kender]

This has to be the biggest load of crap ever. You are going to determine who is doping by their victory salute? Uh-huh.

Landis just won an epic victory and put himself back in contention for winning the Tour after seeing everything fall apart during the previous stage. He was stoked. Anyone would be.

the first bit was what i actually thought. more from anger at himself for bonking the day before. he rode all day like he was angry at himself

the second part of my comment was tongue in cheek

 

[rata de sentina]

I still believe it was an "echo positive" from a re-infusion of blood.

I agree. In general whenever looking for an explanation for things going wrong a stuff up invariably trumps an implausible Machiavellian plot.

Agree - while I think LA may have been behind getting riders extra scrutiny in an attempt to dial down their doping it would be a dangerous approach to have them caught.

Lets not forget that one of the main benefits of Ferrari's expertise was was the carefully tailored program to avoid detection. It is not at all surprising that once they left people started to come up positive.

 

[MrRoboto]

Once you agree that most of the top riders were on drugs then the obvious answer is it was still an amazing ride.

Then the question is...How many were blood doping, with Fuentes just being busted and all?

 

[hrotha]

Who actually blew the whistle on Fuentes, was it all J. Manzano? Was it truly the Spanish investigatiors or did they have a insider priming them? The Spanish do not appear to want to penalize dopers, even after they test positive, so why 'bust' them in the first place.

Because "the Spanish" are not a monolithic force, and the investigators and Guardia Civil actually do their work as far as antidoping is concerned only to have people higher up shutting them down (think Birotte).

Yes, Manzano was the whistleblower. Back in 2004, before it was cool. He doesn't get enough credit. And yes, it was the work of Spanish investigators.

 

[andy1234]

This has to be the biggest load of crap ever. You are going to determine who is doping by their victory salute? Uh-huh.

Landis just won an epic victory and put himself back in contention for winning the Tour after seeing everything fall apart during the previous stage. He was stoked. Anyone would be.

I guess that is what you meant with your post below..
Just 2 "stoked" riders. Any other inference would have "to be the biggest load of crap ever"

Three out of the top five. Too bad Rogers was not ordered to take it easy so it did not look even more ridiculous.

 

[Michele]

the first bit was what i actually thought. more from anger at himself for bonking the day before. he rode all day like he was angry at himself

the second part of my comment was tongue in cheek

Beside the doping part, some part forget how important it's motivation into sport.

After a bad day some guys respond by totally giving up, while some other respond by using their anger to push even harder; imho Landis that day showed to be in the 2nd category.

 

[sniper]

I agree. In general whenever looking for an explanation for things going wrong a stuff up invariably trumps an implausible Machiavellian plot.
....

Verbruggen himself threatened somewhere that he could "deliver positive riders". (sorry, no link).
The UCI clearly has (had) a direct influence on testers' actions.
Fränk Schleck claims he was framed/spiked and I have not yet heard a single person in the peloton dismiss that claim as an "implausible Machiavellian plot".

Not saying Floyd was framed (it could of course be an echo-positive), but it's not really that implausbile either.

 

[thirteen]

Verbruggen himself threatened somewhere that he could "deliver positive riders". (sorry, no link).
The UCI clearly has (had) a direct influence on testers' actions.
Fränk Schleck claims he was framed/spiked and I have not yet heard a single person in the peloton dismiss that claim as an "implausible Machiavellian plot".

Not saying Floyd was framed (it could of course be an echo-positive), but it's not really that implausbile either.

one link, is Paul Kimmage's tweets from 22 september:

Paul Kimmage ‏@PaulKimmage

To Hein Verbruggen, a question: Does this ring a bell?

'J'ai les moyens de vous faire un coureur positif quand je veux...'

 

[Eyeballs Out]

I've always felt that the theory that Floyd didn't prepare any differently for Stage 17 than he did for the rest of that Tour was plausible and I think a number of factors were in play

- his superiority in that Tour was obvious from an early stage. In fact he was getting criticism from commentators for not riding more aggressively, for saving energy and for not building up a bigger lead. In other words he kept a lot in the tank

- he was an excellent descender and there were a number of descents on that stage where (given his deficit) he was taking bigger risks than the others

- some of the other contenders didn't ride very smart. Certainly it seemed like everyone except Sastre and Pereiro went into the red on the first climb and never really recovered. Everyone was really tired from slugging it out in the previous stage when they'd suddenly been presented with a chance of winning the Tour

- there seems to be some effect whereby a rider who forgets to eat or drink and drops a huge chunk of time one day comes back to ride very strongly the next day. I don't know if there is any data or science to support that but I can recall it happening to other riders. Maybe something to do with the way the body adjusts when it is deprived

 

[Frosty]

- there seems to be some effect whereby a rider who forgets to eat or drink and drops a huge chunk of time one day comes back to ride very strongly the next day. I don't know if there is any data or science to support that but I can recall it happening to other riders. Maybe something to do with the way the body adjusts when it is deprived

Have heard of that before. They may feel pretty awful while running out of energy but their muscles arent as tired because they arent being used as hard. Therefore they are fresher the next day. Maybe also they have a point to prove or have lost enough time that they are allowed some leeway.

 

[sniper]

one link, is Paul Kimmage's tweets from 22 september:

Paul Kimmage ‏@PaulKimmage

thanks thirteen!

indeed, so considering that, as well as:
- the previous 'misunderstandings' between Verbruggen and Floyd,
- a possibly 'not-so-amused' Lance Armstrong (seeing another American take his TdF crown),
- Floyd himself not understanding the positive
we have all ingredients for a nice machiavellian conspiracy plot.

 

[Netserk]

- there seems to be some effect whereby a rider who forgets to eat or drink and drops a huge chunk of time one day comes back to ride very strongly the next day. I don't know if there is any data or science to support that but I can recall it happening to other riders. Maybe something to do with the way the body adjusts when it is deprived

Another example is Contador in '11. He was in good shape in the last week, but bonked on the Galibier stage and was flying the next day.

 

[Squire]

Another example is Contador in '11. He was in good shape in the last week, but bonked on the Galibier stage and was flying the next day.

Yet another example: Kreuziger in the Giro.

 

[andy1234]

Purposely riding to the point of getting the knock, a few days before an event, followed by carb overload used to be quite a common form of preparation. From experience it made getting the knock during the race almost impossible, but wasn't as effective if done too often. Draining the bodys glycogen stores, followed by carb overload, triggers a form of glycogen super compensation.

 

[Cloxxki]

Have heard of that before. They may feel pretty awful while running out of energy but their muscles arent as tired because they arent being used as hard. Therefore they are fresher the next day. Maybe also they have a point to prove or have lost enough time that they are allowed some leeway.

Totally my theory on his performance. If you bonk, you're going full bore, but nothing much happens. A car with little fuel coming to the cylinders, will provide little power, but also not wear as much.
The time lost due to bonking vs less fatigue the next day may be a positive balance for the bonker. Time lost is only on the last climb (uphill finish), which is also the most intense part, especially for those who don't bonk and fight for every second. If then you make the next day a long TT (FL's solo), you use your advantage over a loooong effort. Say if you have a couple % edge over the rest, do that for many hours, forcing them into intensity they are not ready for, for a duration they're not ready for, you kill them.
You'd prefer to bonk the last say 25mins of a flat stage, and have your teammates drag you home 1-2 minutes from the competition. FL lost more, but his ballsy (plural) ride took all the advantage out of the bonk possible. It's the greatest ride IMO, made possible primarily due to the binking, and FL being so hugely distraught about it. Pressure off, anger mode on, see what he could fix of his stupid mistake. The man was on fire. And scotch.
When he tested positive I was hopeful the bonking in combination with the drink could somehow bring such testosterone values to appear, but now, I think those are either a UCI setup or a badly timed BB draw.

 

[Epicycle]

I wouldn't be surprised if his bad day was a result of something going wrong with his doping program, maybe he the transfusion affected him funny or something.

The conspiracy thing has to take into account that Floyd's samples from 4 more stages tested positive for evidence of testosterone use when the carbon isotope tests were done. It doesn't make sense to me that 5 samples were spiked somehow, but only one was far enough over the T/E limit to trigger a positive.

I still think he's either doing what Ben Johnson and others have done - not fully admitting what happened for whatever reason (to hold on to a bit of glory maybe), or the soigneur was regularly administering testosterone cream as part of the program (without Floyd really paying attention to it) and something went wrong. I remember Sinkewitz saying that he tested positive because he absentmindedly rubbed a lot of testosterone cream on himself out of habit the day before he gave the sample that came up positive.

 

[Cloxxki]

I wouldn't be surprised if his bad day was a result of something going wrong with his doping program, maybe he the transfusion affected him funny or something.

The bonking in my memory was about Perreiro being smart as an alternative to being a real GC candidate. He attacked to prevent Landis from eating. Super smart, but it backfired the next day with FL having fresh legs and all the self-anger in the world.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

If you read Floyd's book, he talks about the stage. Saying they planned the strategy including playful trash talk to psych the others out into thinking he'd launch a hopeless suicide attack (and thus ignore him). He said he felt great early, the weather was very hot - which is to his liking, and he got a bit lucky in that the others were bickering with each other before forming any sort of organized chase. By then it was too late.

To me he rode a gutsy ride with a great strategy. Sure he doped. But all the top riders then were doped as well.

As to the + for T, I too chalked it up to re-infusion with T tainted blood. Floyd seems to shrug at this. Who knows. We'll never know. He admitted worse, and it ruined his career/life. I'm not going to expect more from the guy.