Floyd to be charged with fraud

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Mar 18, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
I'm often criticized for holding JV to too high of a standard, you know, because he's "such a nice guy". I see a type of parallel situation here.

There is a big difference. Despite what Landis did in the past, he has, at great cost to himself, become part of the solution. JV, while pretending to fight against doping, has watched his colleagues tell the truth and be attacked for it by Armstrong; and JV with his team members has the means to set the record straight. JV's stance has been completely self-serving and calculated to gain maximum personal advantage while costing himself anything.
 
Aug 10, 2010
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BroDeal said:
There is a big difference. Despite what Landis did in the past, he has, at great cost to himself, become part of the solution. JV, while pretending to fight against doping, has watched his colleagues tell the truth and be attacked for it by Armstrong; and JV with his team members has the means to set the record straight. JV's stance has been completely self-serving and calculated to gain maximum personal advantage while costing himself anything.

"At great cost to himself," Landis blew almost everything he had in a lying fraudulent attempt to cheat the sport. Before Floyd started disclosing truth, he had already hit rock bottom. His finances (in 2010, by his own admission), were decimated, his family shattered, and his future in cycling was over.

Floyd's only hope was the qui tam lawsuit--and he couldn't do the qui tam unless he disclosed the Postie doping.

Enough of the Hero Floyd myth. The qui tam lawsuit is a good thing, sure, but Floyd's motive was $$$$$$$.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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BroDeal said:
There is a big difference. Despite what Landis did in the past, he has, at great cost to himself, become part of the solution. JV, while pretending to fight against doping, has watched his colleagues tell the truth and be attacked for it by Armstrong; and JV with his team members has the means to set the record straight. JV's stance has been completely self-serving and calculated to gain maximum personal advantage while costing himself anything.

Landis helped no one until well-after his universe had essentially crumbled to the ground. And he was all-too-willing to stay on the dark side a mere week before typing that first famous email. And we have quotes from him saying that he'd do everything the same way again, so I really (still) see no acts of contrition from him yet. So I get it, he's "sorry" so many people that he cares about have been hurt. But I have yet to see him say that he is sorry for hurting them. Because he still thinks that what he did was justified. He is of that "Lance mentality" that the toughness of the sport gives them the justification for doing this.

And Floyd only helps in the fight against Lance because he (at least partially) blames Lance for the individual consequences of choices Floyd has made for himself. Own your problems.

And the difference is not as big as you say. Landis just hasn't (yet) tried to take entreprenurial advantage of it like JV has.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
Good people often do bad things. And before we can all get back to calling them GOOD again, we might need to account for certain things. So let's talk about testosterone use at Le TDF. Even Floyd has admitted how wonderfully helpful a little gel pack under your sack can be when you need it.

I'm often criticized for holding JV to too high of a standard, you know, because he's "such a nice guy". I see a type of parallel situation here.

Indeed - and then he said:
I actually took testosterone the year before that - the cream stuff I used the entire race - and I was tested and nothing came up. But then I decided if I am going to carry around drugs, I might as well carry around something that’s in a syringe. Doing testosterone was easier but growth hormone worked better.

What does ‘worked better’ mean?

It felt better. The effects of these hormones are delayed. It’s not like taking an amphetamine or a drug where you feel something different immediately; you really have to pay attention because the differences are subtle. Some anabolics work faster than others; some cause you to retain water more; for me, the growth hormone didn’t make me feel as stiff and bloated as the testosterone did. And there was no risk (of detection) with the growth hormone at all, apart from just physically having it, so I just decided I would do that.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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MarkvW said:
"At great cost to himself," Landis blew almost everything he had in a lying fraudulent attempt to cheat the sport. Before Floyd started disclosing truth, he had already hit rock bottom. His finances (in 2010, by his own admission), were decimated, his family shattered, and his future in cycling was over.

Floyd's only hope was the qui tam lawsuit--and he couldn't do the qui tam unless he disclosed the Postie doping.

Enough of the Hero Floyd myth. The qui tam lawsuit is a good thing, sure, but Floyd's motive was $$$$$$$.

I don't remember all of the words, but I do remember enough of the things Floyd has said himelf. And I agree with MarkvW. I'm sick and tired of being attacked for not granting my own individual stamp of immunity to Floyd for being "helpful". I agree with the past couple of posts in that I feel that Floyd must still be accountable for certain things. Being Lance's enemy doesn't yet make Floyd my friend. And at some point, we have to stop accepting those "I'm just a naive, unworldly Mennonite boy from Lancaster County" coupons. They've long since expired.

5iq3.jpg
 
Aug 10, 2010
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Digger said:
I never said he was poor. I never said he was flush.
You are the one making these assumptions. I questioned you making these assumptions often on half truths, if you were doing well. In a number of days Mark you have gone from Floyd is poor, to Floyd is flush, to Floyd is poor again. What kind of accounting do they do in the States?

I'd say Floyd is poor. He has no known job, his house has been foreclosed on, he said he had no money in 2010, and there is no indication that anything has changed since then.

Come on, admit it! :D. You think Floyd is poor, too!
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Indeed - and then he said:

You see truth. I see you being manipulated into believing a story that he really needs you to believe. I'm not trying to be mean in this. I don't belive that he'll do anything for love and then not do that.

funny-captions-snooki-meatloaf-i-dont-blame-him.png
 

Dr. Maserati

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BotanyBay said:
Landis helped no one until well-after his universe had essentially crumbled to the ground. And he was all-too-willing to stay on the dark side a mere week before typing that first famous email. And we have quotes from him saying that he'd do everything the same way again, so I really (still) see no acts of contrition from him yet. So I get it, he's "sorry" so many people that he cares about have been hurt. But I have yet to see him say that he is sorry for hurting them. Because he still thinks that what he did was justified. He is of that "Lance mentality" that the toughness of the sport gives them the justification for doing this.

And Floyd only helps in the fight against Lance because he (at least partially) blames Lance for the individual consequences of choices Floyd has made for himself. Own your problems.

And the difference is not as big as you say. Landis just hasn't (yet) tried to take entreprenurial advantage of it like JV has.

This one is in video just to help you - but here is the text:
"Well its about the truth, its about me feeling better, for having mislead the public and for that I would like to say sorry, I haven't had a chance to do so apart from in the newspapers, in print I would like to take the opportunity to say that I'm sorry for having lied, I am glad I dont have to lie"
 

Dr. Maserati

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MarkvW said:
I'd say Floyd is poor. He has no known job, his house has been foreclosed on, he said he had no money in 2010, and there is no indication that anything has changed since then.

Come on, admit it! :D. You think Floyd is poor, too!

He may not have any finances - but he is much richer than you are.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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I think it is truly sad that Floyd chose to upend the emotional security and financial situation of his family. And when he properly accepts responsibility for his own role in that mess, I'll be sad for Floyd as well.

Digger will be at Adams Avenue Bicycles collecting for the Floyd Fuctness Fund this weekend. Digger, how about making a donation to the two females who were REALLY hurt in all this? Perhaps you can pay for a few of the therapy sessions yourself?
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
You see truth. I see you being manipulated into believing a story that he really needs you to believe. I'm not trying to be mean in this. I don't belive that he'll do anything for love and then not do that.

No - I see you backtracking.

As it appears you need visual stimulation.
ncmcro.jpg
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Indeed - and then he said:

It’s not like taking an amphetamine or a drug where you feel something different immediately; you really have to pay attention because the differences are subtle. Some anabolics work faster than others; some cause you to retain water more; for me, the growth hormone didn’t make me feel as stiff and bloated as the testosterone did. And there was no risk (of detection) with the growth hormone at all, apart from just physically having it, so I just decided I would do that.

Sounds like he is a real connoisseur of anabolics. You know, being able to compare and contrast them like he has done here?

Yet, he wants you to believe he is just a poor "unfrozen caveman bike racer" who is as simple and white as freshly fallen powder snow.

Nothing that the God of Hematology won't let him into Heaven for.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
No - I see you backtracking.

In what possible way? I render an opinion on his character and then you have some kind of absurd expectation that I'm going to memorize a seven-hour interview to help "prove my point"?

And also, consider your source of truth. Floyd's own words are not a great measure of truth.

No backtracking at all. I'm pretty firm in how I feel about Floyd. Hog even thinks I'm twisted and cruel.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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MarkvW said:
Not sorry about the doping he had to do to win, though. And you, student of the sport that you are, know that.

Which was not BBs point - please keep up.

Indeed I do know a bit about the history of the sport, in fact Floyd had his "win" taken away, and rightly so.
Unless you think he should apologize to Oscar Pereiro?


BotanyBay said:
In what possible way? I render an opinion on his character and then you have some kind of absurd expectation that I'm going to memorize a seven-hour interview to help "prove my point"?

And also, consider your source of truth. Floyd's own words are not a great measure of truth.

No backtracking at all. I'm pretty firm in how I feel about Floyd. Hog even thinks I'm twisted and cruel.

You are entitled to your own opinion - however much of your opinion is drawn from available information that you appear to not know.
 
Aug 10, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Which was not BBs point - please keep up.

Indeed I do know a bit about the history of the sport, in fact Floyd had his "win" taken away, and rightly so.
Unless you think he should apologize to Oscar Pereiro?

He doped to win for his fearless leader Lance, and he's not sorry about that, either.

Is it possible to dope in the pro peloton without lying? I would think that riders would be signing statements all the time declaring their compliance . ..
 
Oct 25, 2010
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I wrote (back on Friday):

He's been willing to throw Lance under the bus, but no one else. Floyd STILL has the opportunity to spill the entire truth (kimmage-style), yet still chooses selective disclosure, and still to this day remains very tight-lipped.

Whatever you want to call this (backtracking, backpedaling, what have you), then go ahead: I did read the NY Velocity interview back when it came out. And I'll admit, at the time of this statement, I did not remember his throwing some others (Postal, etc) under the bus. Sorry, but after so many YEARS of previously listening to his scant, curt statements, I guess I had a bias still remaining on that specific aspect. We all have our "areas of specialty" in doping history here. It would seem that Maserati, TheHog and Digger have hard-ons for Floyd quotes. Great. Good on ya.

And I will go on to say more here, as it applies to my (still current) belief in his big "heavily-padded-by-mostly-truth" lie. I still simply do not believe him on the specific point of his use of the testosterone in the 2006 TDF. And it really means everything to me.

1) He still is (and usually has been) tight-lipped. Except for when it helped further his agenda in fighting the doping case. And we have NO IDEA if he was even an active / significant participant in the Birotte/ LA GJ case

2) I still think that his primary motivation for the limited "loosening of his lips" has to more to do with either emotional or financial revenge against Lance Armstrong. Lance introduced him to the stuff and then hung him out to dry as an untouchable as he couldn't manage his insane life (Lance, in contrast, is a highly functional addict). My guess is that in Floyd's eye, that is the worst kind of disloyalty and hipocracy. Floyd, less than a week before his first "spill the beans" email, had actively sought a ride with RadioShack, and was turned down. Floyd was still in gangsta-mode a mere few days before his redemption.

3) Floyd might not have had much property to lose if he had been truthful (with Kimmage) about his Testosterone use in July of '06, but he most certainly had his freedom to lose. If he were to admit that specific use, then he would have been admitting guilt in terms of Fraud. But I think he "threw us all a bone" in terms of absolute value by stating his use of blood doping during the same event.

And I understand why so many of you are Floyd apologists. The amount of stuff he said in a short amount of time was like hitting the lottery for most anti-doping enthusiasts. You'll take what you can get. I understand.

My biggest beef with the guy is that his decision to lie for so many years quite literally DESTROYED not only his own immediate family, but those of his mother-in-law, FATHER-in-law (yeah, I'm willing to say it), wife and daughter. We'll never see the faces of many others who were directly affected. And even after all that, I'd be willing to wrap my arms around the guy and hug him with forgiveness... except he still has this sick, flippant attitude EVEN NOW.

Does he regret it? No. Just the damage caused by the lying. Because he refuses to take true ownership for his own actions that took place in a literal SEA of others doing equally nasty things.

Floyd, you don't need to be alone in your deceit to be immoral. Just because everyone else did it, does not mean that you are STILL not personally accountable. It all caught up with you. Your involvement destroyed many lives. And despite Lance's (or pro cycling's) pervasive complicity, you STILL must account for your part. And it is really that simple.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Digger said:
You actually are one of the vilest people on here...jackhammer from way back wasn't as bad as you. Seriously you're mental.
Do you have any respect whatsoever...you can't keep someone's daughter out of this? You feel adding their name adds to your argument?

WHAT?

BB did not do that to Amber and her daughter .......FLOYD DID! WTF. SERIOUSLY YOU ARE A VIAL xxxxxxx also.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
I wrote (back on Friday):



Whatever you want to call this (backtracking, backpedaling, what have you), then go ahead: I did read the NY Velocity interview back when it came out. And I'll admit, at the time of this statement, I did not remember his throwing some others (Postal, etc) under the bus. Sorry, but after so many YEARS of previously listening to his scant, curt statements, I guess I had a bias still remaining on that specific aspect. We all have our "areas of specialty" in doping history here. It would seem that Maserati, TheHog and Digger have hard-ons for Floyd quotes. Great. Good on ya.

And I will go on to say more here, as it applies to my (still current) belief in his big "heavily-padded-by-mostly-truth" lie. I still simply do not believe him on the specific point of his use of the testosterone in the 2006 TDF. And it really means everything to me.

Ok, timeout on this one.
I don't really care what you call it - but your opinion is based on a lot of very black and white assumptions that are often wrong.

To quote your piece from Friday "He's been willing to throw Lance under the bus, but no one else. Floyd STILL has the opportunity to spill the entire truth (kimmage-style), yet still chooses selective disclosure, and still to this day remains very tight-lipped."

You realize Kimmage only mentioned one other person in RR? And that was Chappuis. Floyd told about all the Doctors, how much he paid them and all the products he used.



BotanyBay said:
1) He still is (and usually has been) tight-lipped. Except for when it helped further his agenda in fighting the doping case. And we have NO IDEA if he was even an active / significant participant in the Birotte/ LA GJ case
So, he is tight lipped except when he isn't.


BotanyBay said:
2) I still think that his primary motivation for the limited "loosening of his lips" has to more to do with either emotional or financial revenge against Lance Armstrong. Lance introduced him to the stuff and then hung him out to dry as an untouchable as he couldn't manage his insane life (Lance, in contrast, is a highly functional addict). My guess is that in Floyd's eye, that is the worst kind of disloyalty and hipocracy. Floyd, less than a week before his first "spill the beans" email, had actively sought a ride with RadioShack, and was turned down. Floyd was still in gangsta-mode a mere few days before his redemption.
It was not about Armstrong - although i am sure Floyd enjoyed the side show.

Would he have confessed if he joined RS? Probably not.
But once he was rejected by RS there was no longer any reason to remain loyal (to either LA/JB or the omerta) and it was the lie that was ruining him.


BotanyBay said:
3) Floyd might not have had much property to lose if he had been truthful (with Kimmage) about his Testosterone use in July of '06, but he most certainly had his freedom to lose. If he were to admit that specific use, then he would have been admitting guilt in terms of Fraud. But I think he "threw us all a bone" in terms of absolute value by stating his use of blood doping during the same event.
People paid for his defense - the product would have little difference (as appears to be the case).


BotanyBay said:
And I understand why so many of you are Floyd apologists. The amount of stuff he said in a short amount of time was like hitting the lottery for most anti-doping enthusiasts. You'll take what you can get. I understand.
I certainly am not an apologist for Floyd, he doped and he got caught, thats the way it should be.

But he HAS offered lots of information - it is not anyone else problem if you have not gone through it.

BotanyBay said:
My biggest beef with the guy is that his decision to lie for so many years quite literally DESTROYED not only his own immediate family, but those of his mother-in-law, FATHER-in-law (yeah, I'm willing to say it), wife and daughter. We'll never see the faces of many others who were directly affected. And even after all that, I'd be willing to wrap my arms around the guy and hug him with forgiveness... except he still has this sick, flippant attitude EVEN NOW.

Does he regret it? No. Just the damage caused by the lying. Because he refuses to take true ownership for his own actions that took place in a literal SEA of others doing equally nasty things.

Floyd, you don't need to be alone in your deceit to be immoral. Just because everyone else did it, does not mean that you are STILL not personally accountable. It all caught up with you. Your involvement destroyed many lives. And despite Lance's (or pro cycling's) pervasive complicity, you STILL must account for your part. And it is really that simple.

Hold on - on one line you write:
"My biggest beef with the guy is that his decision to lie...."
(which I would agree with) but then you write:
"Does he regret it? No. Just the damage caused by the lying."...

Of course he regrets it - and of course it was the lying that caused his ruin and those effected. The doping didn't ruin him, it was the lies that did - which is why when he eventually came to admit, he had to admit to everything.
 
May 14, 2010
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BotanyBay said:
I wrote (back on Friday):

<snipped for brevity>

And I will go on to say more here, as it applies to my (still current) belief in his big "heavily-padded-by-mostly-truth" lie. I still simply do not believe him on the specific point of his use of the testosterone in the 2006 TDF. And it really means everything to me.

1) He still is (and usually has been) tight-lipped. Except for when it helped further his agenda in fighting the doping case. And we have NO IDEA if he was even an active / significant participant in the Birotte/ LA GJ case

2) I still think that his primary motivation for the limited "loosening of his lips" has to more to do with either emotional or financial revenge against Lance Armstrong. Lance introduced him to the stuff and then hung him out to dry as an untouchable as he couldn't manage his insane life (Lance, in contrast, is a highly functional addict). My guess is that in Floyd's eye, that is the worst kind of disloyalty and hipocracy. Floyd, less than a week before his first "spill the beans" email, had actively sought a ride with RadioShack, and was turned down. Floyd was still in gangsta-mode a mere few days before his redemption.

Agree with all of the above. And your reading of his motivation for outing LA is, IMO, spot on.

3) Floyd might not have had much property to lose if he had been truthful (with Kimmage) about his Testosterone use in July of '06, but he most certainly had his freedom to lose. If he were to admit that specific use, then he would have been admitting guilt in terms of Fraud. But I think he "threw us all a bone" in terms of absolute value by stating his use of blood doping during the same event.

And I understand why so many of you are Floyd apologists. The amount of stuff he said in a short amount of time was like hitting the lottery for most anti-doping enthusiasts. You'll take what you can get. I understand.

My biggest beef with the guy is that his decision to lie for so many years quite literally DESTROYED not only his own immediate family, but those of his mother-in-law, FATHER-in-law (yeah, I'm willing to say it), wife and daughter. We'll never see the faces of many others who were directly affected. And even after all that, I'd be willing to wrap my arms around the guy and hug him with forgiveness... except he still has this sick, flippant attitude EVEN NOW.

Does he regret it? No. Just the damage caused by the lying. Because he refuses to take true ownership for his own actions that took place in a literal SEA of others doing equally nasty things.

Floyd, you don't need to be alone in your deceit to be immoral. Just because everyone else did it, does not mean that you are STILL not personally accountable. It all caught up with you. Your involvement destroyed many lives. And despite Lance's (or pro cycling's) pervasive complicity, you STILL must account for your part. And it is really that simple.
I lost any sympathy for Landis when he tried to blackmail Lemond with threats of revealing the latter's childhood sexual abuse. (And, by the way, don't be surprised if you see blackmail -- aka extortion -- among the crimes he is charged with, if he is charged.)

I think as far as his limited confession goes, it was pretty much a case of his saying to himself, "If I have to throw myself under the bus in order to throw LA under there, I'll do it, I don't care. Big Tex is going to jail." But he did hold back just enough, he hoped, to keep himself from becoming LA's cellmate.

If you step back and look at it, though, you see there is more at issue here than Landis and his rashness and his efforts to be a tough guy. Landis was a small fry, just one more rider among many corrupted and taken advantage of by what was essentially a criminal conspiracy. This desperate, flawed athlete, filled with thoughts of revenge, strapped a bomb onto his body and walked into the big bosses' office, with the intention of taking them all out. The bosses used their long reach to buy off the bomb maker, however, and the only person who ended up getting hurt was Landis. Now, the police, also on the bosses' payroll, threaten to roll up and take our injured, raving anti-hero away. After they do, the bosses will share a laugh and a drink and life will go on as before.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to have any part in that process. None of it encourages truth or transparency -- quite the opposite, in fact -- and in any case it just isn't right. If the boss isn't going to take a fall, I say leave the foot soldier alone.
 
Jul 8, 2009
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Maxiton said:
Agree with all of the above. And your reading of his motivation for outing LA is, IMO, spot on.

I lost any sympathy for Landis when he tried to blackmail Lemond with threats of revealing the latter's childhood sexual abuse. (And, by the way, don't be surprised if you see blackmail -- aka extortion -- among the crimes he is charged with, if he is charged.)

I think as far as his limited confession goes, it was pretty much a case of his saying to himself, "If I have to throw myself under the bus in order to throw LA under there, I'll do it, I don't care. Big Tex is going to jail." But he did hold back just enough, he hoped, to keep himself from becoming LA's cellmate.

If you step back and look at it, though, you see there is more at issue here than Landis and his rashness and his efforts to be a tough guy. Landis was a small fry, just one more rider among many corrupted and taken advantage of by what was essentially a criminal conspiracy. This desperate, flawed athlete, filled with thoughts of revenge, strapped a bomb onto his body and walked into the big bosses' office, with the intention of taking them all out. The bosses used their long reach to buy off the bomb maker, however, and the only person who ended up getting hurt was Landis. Now, the police, also on the bosses' payroll, threaten to roll up and take our injured, raving anti-hero away. After they do, the bosses will share a laugh and a drink and life will go on as before.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to have any part in that process. None of it encourages truth or transparency -- quite the opposite, in fact -- and in any case it just isn't right. If the boss isn't going to take a fall, I say leave the foot soldier alone.

^^^
Yep.

After numerous pages of petty squabbling over semantics and poster to poster antagonism (IMO) you've hit the nail on the head.
 
Aug 10, 2010
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Maxiton said:
Agree with all of the above. And your reading of his motivation for outing LA is, IMO, spot on.

I lost any sympathy for Landis when he tried to blackmail Lemond with threats of revealing the latter's childhood sexual abuse. (And, by the way, don't be surprised if you see blackmail -- aka extortion -- among the crimes he is charged with, if he is charged.)

I think as far as his limited confession goes, it was pretty much a case of his saying to himself, "If I have to throw myself under the bus in order to throw LA under there, I'll do it, I don't care. Big Tex is going to jail." But he did hold back just enough, he hoped, to keep himself from becoming LA's cellmate.

If you step back and look at it, though, you see there is more at issue here than Landis and his rashness and his efforts to be a tough guy. Landis was a small fry, just one more rider among many corrupted and taken advantage of by what was essentially a criminal conspiracy. This desperate, flawed athlete, filled with thoughts of revenge, strapped a bomb onto his body and walked into the big bosses' office, with the intention of taking them all out. The bosses used their long reach to buy off the bomb maker, however, and the only person who ended up getting hurt was Landis. Now, the police, also on the bosses' payroll, threaten to roll up and take our injured, raving anti-hero away. After they do, the bosses will share a laugh and a drink and life will go on as before.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to have any part in that process. None of it encourages truth or transparency -- quite the opposite, in fact -- and in any case it just isn't right. If the boss isn't going to take a fall, I say leave the foot soldier alone.

Floyd was Armstrong's lieutenant, then two years later he's on his own team--and he's not the foot soldier anymore--he's the leader. And if Armstrong led Floyd's Fraud (rather than Floyd himself), then I would tend to agree with you. But it doesn't seem right that Floyd should get a lifetime pass just because once upon a time he was on a bike racing team with Lance Armstrong.
 
May 14, 2010
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MarkvW said:
Floyd was Armstrong's lieutenant, then two years later he's on his own team--and he's not the foot soldier anymore--he's the leader. And if Armstrong led Floyd's Fraud (rather than Floyd himself), then I would tend to agree with you. But it doesn't seem right that Floyd should get a lifetime pass just because once upon a time he was on a bike racing team with Lance Armstrong.

Landis was a foot soldier, not a slave. If he wanted to sign a contract and lead his own team, they couldn't stop him. Not immediately, anyway. But in any case Landis and his piddly ass little team was nothing in comparison to Tailwind, and Armstrong and Weisel and UCI, et al., and everything they were into. For all parties concerned on the LA side we're talking real money, huge money, continuously, much of it well outside the cycling world. Landis may have led a team, but Armstrong was still the boss, as the whole peloton knew (hence their nickname for him -- which was never a compliment).