• We're giving away a Cyclingnews water bottle! Find out more here!

Following on from Floyd...

Page 2 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Jul 6, 2009
774
0
0
Señor_Contador said:
Well, I'd rather have a president that throws bunga-bunga parties with teenage girls than one that makes decisions that kill hundreds of thousands of human beings. See George W. Bush and Madeleine Albright and the sanctions on Iraq, for example.



This is simply not true. Two of the worst acts of human attrocities in the past 200 years, namely the dropping of the atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the Holocaust, were carried out by people of Germanic and Anglo-Saxon heritage.


Just a thought.
could not agree more put simply. people are very dumb particularly in america it is what it is. no worries though soon this greedy evil enterprise will sink.
 
Jul 2, 2009
2,310
0
0
Señor_Contador said:
Well, I'd rather have a president that throws bunga-bunga parties with teenage girls than one that makes decisions that kill hundreds of thousands of human beings. See George W. Bush and Madeleine Albright and the sanctions on Iraq, for example.
Italy sent troops to Iraq too, you know.
 
May 3, 2010
2,239
0
0
The one point to remember about Spain is that post-1975, forgetting has very much been the order of the day politically. One of the first acts passed by the Spanish Parliament after the first democratic elections made it impossible to prosecute anyone from the Franco regime for human rights abuses. (Similarly, people who had carried out of political violence against the Franco regime were amnestied). Those who do attempt to investigate are accused of ranking up the past. So there is a broader culture of non-investigation and forgetting which cycling in Spain draws upon.

This does have relevance to explaining why there is an almost universal reluctance to either investigate or confront the issue of doping.

Also, there is a fair amount of material interest in not confronting the past - look at French or German cycling since they 'cleaned up'. Why clean up in risk shooting the golden geese that lay golden eggs.
 
TeamSkyFans said:
Ta. Read it.

what a whole load of nothingness that article is. So years ago, Mark Madiot said something about Valverde and Pereiro and so in return those two riders gave Gilbert a bit of an ear bashing the next day.

is that really a story? Im really not sure what new doubt that casts?
Pretty much. And let's not forget that the article points out that Pereiro was suspected of being 'Urko' but cleared, and so if there are erroneous accusations being made, then a rider like Pereiro would feel that he had the right to defend himself. Valverde as team leader and then-ProTour leader has the position of authority in the péloton there, and Gilbert's the unlucky sap who gets the ear-bashing to relay back to his boss.

That's not to say Pereiro is necessarily innocent, rather that he wasn't guilty of the specific charges being levelled.
 
hrotha said:
As a Spaniard, what worries me the most is that I've never heard a top Spanish pro openly attacking dopers or even doping. Either the culture change is farther away from here than from other countries, or riders here are less cynical and hypocritical. Both are pretty bleak prospects.
http://bikepure.org/riders-and-teams/pro-riders/xavier-tondo-volpini-cervelo/
http://bikepure.org/riders-and-teams/pro-riders/dorleta-zorrilla-braceras-bizkaia-durango-champion/

Tondó? Difficult one. He has been out there riding for teams like LA-MSS, and has continued to get better, blossoming late in his career, and of course was 6th in the Vuelta. He started cycling late, getting his start apparently after catching up to a local amateur team in the mountains of Catalunya; at the time he worked at a tomato factory.

But then, he has broken down spectacularly in 3rd weeks, took 3 attempts to finish a GT, and should know more than enough about the risks of doping, after the death of his teammate Bruno Neves in 2008.
 
Mar 18, 2009
13,318
0
0
Libertine Seguros said:
And let's not forget that the article points out that Pereiro was suspected of being 'Urko' but cleared...
Valverde was cleared as well...until those sneaky Italians DNA tested his blood. Come to think of it, the Spanish "cleared" every rider involved in Operation Puerto. Not a single rider was ever sanctioned by the Spanish. That shows how much being "cleared" by the Spanish is worth.
 
BroDeal said:
Valverde was cleared as well...until those sneaky Italians DNA tested his blood. Come to think of it, the Spanish cleared every rider involved in Operation Puerto. Not a single rider was ever sanctioned by the Spanish. It shows how much being "cleared" by the Spanish is worth.
And my closing paragraph was to say that just because Pereiro may have been innocent of the charges levelled at him on that particular occasion doesn't mean he wasn't guilty of others.
 
Libertine Seguros said:
http://bikepure.org/riders-and-teams/pro-riders/xavier-tondo-volpini-cervelo/
http://bikepure.org/riders-and-teams/pro-riders/dorleta-zorrilla-braceras-bizkaia-durango-champion/

Tondó? Difficult one. He has been out there riding for teams like LA-MSS, and has continued to get better, blossoming late in his career, and of course was 6th in the Vuelta. He started cycling late, getting his start apparently after catching up to a local amateur team in the mountains of Catalunya; at the time he worked at a tomato factory.

But then, he has broken down spectacularly in 3rd weeks, took 3 attempts to finish a GT, and should know more than enough about the risks of doping, after the death of his teammate Bruno Neves in 2008.
Well, I'm not saying all Spanish riders dope, of course, I'm saying they don't really speak out. The impact of Bike Pure in Spain is roughly zero.
 
Fester said:
As a thorough "mezcla" I can tell you that latin people tend to look their sins in the face. Latin people watch the bull get slaughtered and appreciate the skill of the matador. Northern Europeans give money to animal rights before stopping of at Macdonalds for a hamburger. Southern Europeans investigate doping through police and are zealous in their anti-doping approach. Not so much in the north. (A) You get where I'm going?

(B) Human beings are basically hideous/beautiful wherever they come from.
(A) That the Northern Europeans are merely more hypocritical?

(B) But of course! Though mine was not meant to be construed as a negative critique of Latinaity. For Heavan's sake! I prefer the Mediterranean people.

However if Southern Europeans investigate doping through the police force, well I can honestly speak only for Italians, which of course is a predominately Catholic country, it is because they have the mafia racket working within it: the Neapolitan cammora, the Calabrian 'ndrangeda and Cosa Nostra in Sicily. And this is connected to a long history of a society that still very much functions within the ancient Mediterranean client/patron system and where familismo happens as a result. For this reason Italy is a more police driven state, even if, in reality, the culture is less rigorous and "severe" than what one usually finds in the north. It's just one of those paradoxes, like those you have mentioned, that doesn't need further explanation beyond simple acknowledgement.

In Catholic society, moreover, one tends to look at sin in terms of the possibility of divine redemption. By contrast in the Northern European (and American) protestant cultures, the emphasis is on its punishment. This is why a Berlusconi can exist in a place like Italy, but not Germany, England or the US. In a country such as Italy where even the priests have "always" had sex, how can we be too critical of our prime minister? That sort of thing. It's also why, unless you commit murder (practically of course), it's very difficult for the courts to put you in prison.

Whereas from the Italian viewpoint, traditional wasp and southern evangelical Americana is puritanical. American tourists friendly and welcomed, but so candidi. My American students always point out how the young Italians are always kissing and hugging each other on the streets, and how that sort of public display of affection is frowned upon in the US, because it makes people feel unconfortable when it doesn't downright scandalize them. Whereas Italian men (not homosexuals) often walk arm and arm in public view. And by the way, perhaps this explains why Italy's Catholic clergy, in a society that is generally less prohibitive in sexual matters, has not witnessed the horrible child abuse scandals nearly to the degree that has come to light in places like the US, Ireland and Germany (either that or omertà explains it, but in this case I really doubt it.). But I digress.

While such generalizations can, of course, only go so far, their is a critical validity in the sociological sense to them as I have experienced over the years.

But I was, in any case, not trying to be judgmental in the negative or positive senses. If anything I was trying to be an objective observer of experience, in this case in regards to how the "sin" of doping is percieved in the Mediterranean environment. I think Goethe, quoting some XVIII Neapolitan century Catholic priest, put it most aptly (if we can here take Naples to metaphorically mean Italy in the wider sense): "Naples is a paradise inhabited by devils."
 
Jul 22, 2009
711
0
0
rhubroma said:
However if Southern Europeans investigate doping through the police force, well I can honestly speak only for Italians, which of course is a predominately Catholic country, it is because they have the mafia racket working within it: the Neapolitan cammora, the Calabrian 'ndrangeda and Cosa Nostra in Sicily. And this is connected to a long history of a society that still very much functions within the ancient Mediterranean client/patron system and where familismo happens as a result. For this reason Italy is a more police driven state, even if, in reality, the culture is less rigorous and "severe" than what one usually finds in the north. It's just one of those paradoxes, like those you have mentioned, that doesn't need further explanation beyond simple acknowledgement.
Am I the only one unable to understand what the gumbah is trying to say in the above paragraph?

In Catholic society, moreover, one tends to look at sin in terms of the possibility of divine redemption. By contrast in the Northern European (and American) protestant cultures, the emphasis is on its punishment.
This is why a Berlusconi can exist in a place like Italy, but not Germany, England or the US.
Whaaaaaaaat??? Have we forgotten Billy-boy Clinton and his intern initiation rituals? Hoover and his transvestite tendencies?

You see, what you fail to see is that many northern Europeans talk up a big game when it comes to values and virtues and all things human. But the reality is that Northern European countries and the USA have: Higher divorce rates, higher rape rates, higher murder rapes, higher suicide rates, et cetera. How and why you seem to be able to bridge that gap between that commendable repentive behavior of Northern Europeans and their actions is beyond me. And to insinuate some sort of ethical pseudo-superiority is just absurd.

Whereas from the Italian viewpoint, traditional wasp and southern evangelical Americana is puritanical. American tourists friendly and welcomed, but so candidi. My American students always point out how the young Italians are always kissing and hugging each other on the streets, and how that sort of public display of affection is frowned upon in the US, because it makes people feel unconfortable when it doesn't downright scandalize them. Whereas Italian men (not homosexuals) often walk arm and arm in public view. And by the way, perhaps this explains why Italy's Catholic clergy, in a society that is generally less prohibitive in sexual matters, has not witnessed the horrible child abuse scandals nearly to the degree that has come to light in places like the US, Ireland and Germany (either that or omertà explains it, but in this case I really doubt it.). But I digress.
Ok, so it's affection that bothers your American students? Is it, perhaps, affection amongst young Italian men and women? Or is it what follows affection that bothers your beloved patriot students? The three questions could easily be answered by a "the USA has the highest per capita teen pregnancy rates in the world", followed very closely by many Northern European countries. Seems like they like to hit the bonga-bonga more than you think, even though their super-duper values tell them not to.

While such generalizations can, of course, only go so far, their is a critical validity in the sociological sense to them as I have experienced over the years.
Ok, so you're admitting that, for the most part, you're generalizing. And yet, in the same comment, you say that you've experienced some of these generalizations although they hold no sociological validity, which is also known as "opinion". So, in essence you're making generalizations based on opinion.

But I was, in any case, not trying to be judgmental in the negative or positive senses. If anything I was trying to be an objective observer of experience, in this case in regards to how the "sin" of doping is perceived in the Mediterranean environment. I think Goethe, quoting some XVIII Neapolitan century Catholic priest, put it most aptly (if we can here take Naples to metaphorically mean Italy in the wider sense): "Naples is a paradise inhabited by devils."
Look, regardless of what you may think, doping was not invented in the Southern European countries. Steroids, GH, EPO and other doping substances were synthesized/discovered/created in either the USA or a Northern European country. The first athletes to take advantage of doping were either from the USA or some Northern European country. The first countries to either invite and/or force their athletes into doping a program were in either the USA or some Northern European country.

Hypocrisy at its best.
 
Apr 28, 2010
3,498
0
0
People, from now on, keep it on doping and in particular the Pereiro case, Gilbert case and things that are linked to it.
 
Se&#241 said:
Am I the only one unable to understand what the gumbah is trying to say in the above paragraph?



Whaaaaaaaat??? Have we forgotten Billy-boy Clinton and his intern initiation rituals? Hoover and his transvestite tendencies?

You see, what you fail to see is that many northern Europeans talk up a big game when it comes to values and virtues and all things human. But the reality is that Northern European countries and the USA have: Higher divorce rates, higher rape rates, higher murder rapes, higher suicide rates, et cetera. How and why you seem to be able to bridge that gap between that commendable repentive behavior of Northern Europeans and their actions is beyond me. And to insinuate some sort of ethical pseudo-superiority is just absurd.



Ok, so it's affection that bothers your American students? Is it, perhaps, affection amongst young Italian men and women? Or is it what follows affection that bothers your beloved patriot students? The three questions could easily be answered by a "the USA has the highest per capita teen pregnancy rates in the world", followed very closely by many Northern European countries. Seems like they like to hit the bonga-bonga more than you think, even though their super-duper values tell them not to.



Ok, so you're admitting that, for the most part, you're generalizing. And yet, in the same comment, you say that you've experienced some of these generalizations although they hold no sociological validity, which is also known as "opinion". So, in essence you're making generalizations based on opinion.



Look, regardless of what you may think, doping was not invented in the Southern European countries. Steroids, GH, EPO and other doping substances were synthesized/discovered/created in either the USA or a Northern European country. The first athletes to take advantage of doping were either from the USA or some Northern European country. The first countries to either invite and/or force their athletes into doping a program were in either the USA or some Northern European country.

Hypocrisy at its best.
You simply didn't understand me. And none of the paradoxes you pointed out refute any of what I said, but merely demonstrate what happens when the reality of a society doesn't fit its high ideals. The ideals, though, are taught nonetheless and this does produce sociological effects.

And you obviously have never had any perspective from the outside, or any knowledge of outsiders' perspective, nor would you probably trouble yourself much to try and comprehend such since you already know it all I'm sure. :rolleyes:

Sorry, back on topic. Yes, hypocrisy at its best. I'll agree with that.
 
Jul 22, 2009
711
0
0
rhubroma said:
You simply didn't understand me. And none of the paradoxes you pointed out refute any of what I said, but merely demonstrate what happens when the reality of a society doesn't fit its high ideals. The ideals, though, are taught nonetheless and this does produce sociological effects.
Right, so... because they're taught something "magically" good happens to those societies, even though the reality tells us otherwise. Hence there is very little "high" in "high ideals". Kinda not following what you preach.


And you obviously have never had any perspective from the outside, or any knowledge of outsiders' perspective, nor would you probably trouble yourself much to try and comprehend such since you already know it all I'm sure.

No, I do, I'm a Spaniard living in the USA.
 
Apr 28, 2010
3,498
0
0
People need to understand that political talk is only allowed in the politics thread
 
Jul 19, 2010
319
0
0
BroDeal said:
Valverde was cleared as well...until those sneaky Italians DNA tested his blood. Come to think of it, the Spanish "cleared" every rider involved in Operation Puerto. Not a single rider was ever sanctioned by the Spanish. That shows how much being "cleared" by the Spanish is worth.
The "Spanish" didn't clear anyone; a few Spanish courts cleared them.

At the time of Puerto it was not easy to argue that doping was illegal under Spanish law. Fuentes etc. were charged with a crime against public health, and the nature of such a charge meant that that identification of individual dopers was not per se relevant to the case - in fact it somehow sort of positioned them as victims of unscrupulous doctors - one of the rationales for dismissing the case was that the level of EPO found in the blood bags was not adequate to constitute a threat to public health. A lot of the failure boils down to one either incompetent or corrupt judge (not "the Spanish"). Spanish law on the matter has since then (in part because of Puerto - it ****ed off the police that their efforts lead to nothing - they knew Fuentes et al were crooked with lots of money, bank accounts, apartments here and there) been reformed.

Finally, even though the legal case failed, it's only because of Puerto that we have no doubt that a long list of cyclists are dopers - e.g. Contador.
 
May 26, 2010
19,530
0
0
Paco_P said:
The "Spanish" didn't clear anyone; a few Spanish courts cleared them.

At the time of Puerto it was not easy to argue that doping was illegal under Spanish law. Fuentes etc. were charged with a crime against public health, and the nature of such a charge meant that that identification of individual dopers was not per se relevant to the case - in fact it somehow sort of positioned them as victims of unscrupulous doctors - one of the rationales for dismissing the case was that the level of EPO found in the blood bags was not adequate to constitute a threat to public health. A lot of the failure boils down to one either incompetent or corrupt judge (not "the Spanish"). Spanish law on the matter has since then (in part because of Puerto - it ****ed off the police that their efforts lead to nothing - they knew Fuentes et al were crooked with lots of money, bank accounts, apartments here and there) been reformed.

Finally, even though the legal case failed, it's only because of Puerto that we have no doubt that a long list of cyclists are dopers - e.g. Contador.
if they wanted to catch athletes for doping they would have released the info to the various federations, wada etc.. and 50+ cyclists would have faced bans. CONI did it to Valverde based on what was found in Operation Peurto. The Spanish FAILED big time. They failed the sports and more importantly the fans.
 
Feb 11, 2011
1
0
0
Gilbert row casts new doubt over Pereiro

In the article I did not see that Gilbert has argued against Pereiro, but the title of the topic is Gilbert row casts new doubt over Pereiro. May be the title can be more acurate with content
Gilbert's words in 2011 ring true revenge, over a conversation that occurred in ... 2006
 
Nov 24, 2010
260
1
0
Dal's theory

hrotha said:
It's on CN, he said Valverde and Pereiro tried to enforce omertà on him in 2006 for something Madiot said about Puerto.

Maybe Valverde and Pereiro had another motive for harassing Gilbert!

In 2005 Philippe Gilbert gave Paul Kimmage an interesting interview http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article539978.ece

PG “I can tell you now,” Gilbert said, “that I will never reach the level I saw at the Dauphine. It doesn’t matter how hard I train; I’m never going to get there"

PK asked whether Gilbert was implying what he thought he was implying — that the cancer of doping was still prevalent in the sport

PG Gilbert affirmed that he was


Ah, a rider in the peloton not upholding the omerta. We remember his interview with Paul. Because of Madiot, we are going to harass an FDJ rider today. Gilbert deserves it.

Is this plausible?

cheers
 
Oct 16, 2010
13,578
1
0
Dallas_ said:
In 2005 Philippe Gilbert gave Paul Kimmage an interesting interview http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article539978.ece
Nice one Dallas, thanks.
The final few paragraphs, Kimmage in top form:

For three days, Gilbert has been sharing a hotel with the Lampre and Quick Step- Innergetic teams. He will have noticed the presence in the Quick Step uniform of the recently retired Johan Museeuw. The former world champion is not listed as a member of the Quick Step staff, but that’s probably not a surprise, given his recent drug ban by the Belgian Cycling Association.

But what is Gilbert to make of Museeuw’s presence on the race and the back-slaps and handshakes that greet him at the start of each stage? Doping is wrong? Cheating doesn’t pay? And you can imagine Gilbert’s reaction on Friday evening, when he returned to his room after the team presentation and flicked on his television . . . Was that really Richard Virenque being unveiled in a three-year deal as Eurosport’s new correspondent?The same Richard who used to poke fun at Bassons during their time together at Festina because Bassons refused to cheat? Surely Eurosport could not justify such a thing. For what would happen in the unlikely event of drug cheats actually being exposed during the race? “And now we turn to our analyst, Richard Virenque.

Richard, you’re the house expert, what do you think?” “Ehhh . . .”

“We’re talking life bans, right? We’re talking about teaching them a lesson they will finally understand, right?” “Ehhh .. . ”

Imagine what it must feel right now to be Christophe Bassons. Imagine how Philippe Gilbert will suffer in the next three weeks. Imagine a dream you’ve held since childhood dying before it begins. Allez, Philippe, bonne chance.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY

TRENDING THREADS