Frédéric Grappe analysis of Froome data

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Ruby60 said:
AC - Granted that there is some fatigue but this was "only" stage 10. I don't know what the previous days were like.. maybe even a rest day,
If I use the most rudimentary formula from determing a max heart rate (220-age), I get a max HR of 192. Now I'd bet that his actual Max HR is much higher, after all,
That formula isn't good for anything when the discussion is at this level of precision.

Ruby60 said:
he is an endurance trained athlete...200bpm?
Varies by individual. You'd think that more beats were better, but it just doesn't work like that.

Ruby60 said:
So he decreased his max HR by 12-15% after just 10 days?
For me and others who were using HR monitors way back when that was high-tech, fatigue generally lowered maximum heart rate. So, if my experience is any indicator 12-15% seems reasonable.
 
Mar 16, 2013
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so in 2011 froome at 68 kgs. did 405AP/411NP for about an hour on stage 10. a maximum effort while fresh near sea-level of 420w sounds reasonable based upon that. i would expect to see max 20 minute power near sea-level around 460w for someone with that ftp, which falls in line with what grappe claims to have seen regarding the 60w difference between peak 60 minute and peak 20 minute values.

i realize they are deep into the race and it was the second ascent, but the time i've seen quoted of high 41:xx up l'alpe seems reasonable given that it's about 10% slower than the enhanced times seen in the supposed previous era.

i don't see how you guys are claiming he's gotten 10-20% stronger. if it's based on froome's own statement of a threshold of 440-460w, i would have to assume froome is referring to threshold as peak power he can sustain for about 30 minutes, which i believe is a typical length of time to view maximal lactate steady state among swimmers.

i have zero problems believing the numbers above based on my own experience. 10% higher would be difficult for me to believe, while 20% would just be insane.
 
darwin553 said:
How should Grappe's opinion on Armstrong and Froome be treated the same?
Because he clearly compared apples to oranges to give Armstrong the green light. Some guy climbing Mt. Faron didn't do it after hours of maximal efforts day after day for a week or more.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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jw1979 said:
i don't see how you guys are claiming he's gotten 10-20% stronger. if it's based on froome's own statement of a threshold of 440-460w, i would have to assume froome is referring to threshold as peak power he can sustain for about 30 minutes, which i believe is a typical length of time to view maximal lactate steady state among swimmers.

i have zero problems believing the numbers above based on my own experience. 10% higher would be difficult for me to believe, while 20% would just be insane.
10% compared to the Vuelta if you go from 405W to 445W. Of course, if we knew his power output in the first TT of the Tour, this would be easy to determine. We don't, so we're just left to speculate on his current power.

As far as the 20% claim, it seems pretty reasonable that's what it takes to go from where he was results-wise in 2005-2010 to where he is right now. But again, all we can do is speculate since they aren't releasing any data.
 
Oct 22, 2009
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vrusimov said:
Can the right, and principally the left ventricle really stretch so much? When you think about it, unless something similar happens, power reduction following stroke volume vs. heart rate must correlate with ejection fraction. I can imagine increasing fatigue but stroke volume increasing to compensate, causing a super-compensation following a rest period from a grand tour? Would that be right?
End Diastolic Volume is limited by the pericardium. Cutting the pericardium increases EDV and SV at rest. I am uncertain of the effects during exercise.

I know AC hypothesizes increases in efficiency. I'll admit that I am not up to date on the latest research, but I am pretty skeptical of this concept explaining significant changes in aerobic performance.

AC: I think that there is something interesting in Froome's hemodynamics. His SV has got to be significantly different that the rest of the pro peloton. It has to be with HR that low. Again I am not suggesting doping, but mearly an interesting study.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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This article was front page of l'Equipe, the day of the biggest race of the year.....and it essentially says nothing more then Froome can ride a bike fast. Not sure where the fault lies for this. Were there conditions on what l'Equipe was allowed to publish or did Fred intentionally leave all the important stuff out?

Interesting that Sky waited until after they resigned Froome to release the info. I can understand why they wanted to be vague before the signed him but afterward why not?

I ran into Sean Yates on Alp d'Huez yesterday. Had a nice chat. Froome came up. Sean had not seen the Grappe article but he said many of the same things it said, that he had a huge capacity to train and recover, numbers were stable, etc.

I asked what he thought changed in Froome's training, etc, that led to such huge increase in form after he left Barloworld. Sean said "I have no idea" > He did say Froome used to crash a bunch, always was coming off the bike
 
Race Radio said:
This article was front page of l'Equipe, the day of the biggest race of the year.....and it essentially says nothing more then Froome can ride a bike fast. Not sure where the fault lies for this. Were there conditions on what l'Equipe was allowed to publish or did Fred intentionally leave all the important stuff out?

Interesting that Sky waited until after they resigned Froome to release the info. I can understand why they wanted to be vague before the signed him but afterward why not?

I ran into Sean Yates on Alp d'Huez yesterday. Had a nice chat. Froome came up. Sean had not seen the Grappe article but he said many of the same things it said, that he had a huge capacity to train and recover, numbers were stable, etc.

I asked what he thought changed in Froome's training, etc, that led to such huge increase in form after he left Barloworld. Sean said "I have no idea" > He did say Froome used to crash a bunch, always was coming off the bike
Oh please. Give it a rest. Then did Brailsford walk over with the missing data from Baroworld and say it all if good?

This is a serious thread. Not a Race Radio at the Tour diary.
 
Jul 14, 2013
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Froome bonked yesterday, first he raised his hand and almost cried for gel. And even they sent Porte back to illegally receive food from the car. While he was raising his hand, Nairo was pushing up the tempo and Froome was keeping up with it until Porte took off for the car, I assume. Because that moment was not on the camera, most of us learnt that Porte went to the car post-race.

Now, if you have bonked, than it is okay to assume that you are almost ran out of your glycogen storage? If you are bonked, you cannot keep up with the pace, you simply hit the wall at some point. Froome didn't.

I see all these as a PR work. "Hey look, Froome pushed himself so hard in ITT that now he was not able to keep up with the second Alpe d'Huez"

Yeah, yeah. Yet even if he bonked, he still got 5.86w/kg avg output, seriously? Please.

Brailsford knew very well that WADA will reject this "individual request". And he knew L'Equipe would jump to that (insufficient so-called release of) data. We all know Grappe gave green light to LA. I am not going to assault on Grappe because of that, just not yet. But it is very very clear that SKY and DB are trying to make a hell of a PR stunt here.
 
Jul 8, 2009
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momotaro said:
End Diastolic Volume is limited by the pericardium. Cutting the pericardium increases EDV and SV at rest. I am uncertain of the effects during exercise.

I know AC hypothesizes increases in efficiency. I'll admit that I am not up to date on the latest research, but I am pretty skeptical of this concept explaining significant changes in aerobic performance.

AC: I think that there is something interesting in Froome's hemodynamics. His SV has got to be significantly different that the rest of the pro peloton. It has to be with HR that low. Again I am not suggesting doping, but mearly an interesting study.
Perhaps if we even knew is maximum heart rate. We get 169 from the profile, so it is at least that. Depending on his level of effort at the finish then that figure should be pretty close. Using 170, 85% would put him at 144 bpm, which would be close to his 147 average. I have just never seen working TT heart rates that low for an elite athlete.

In regards to SV and ventricular stretch, wouldn't sarcomere length prohibit muscle contraction beyond a certain point. My crash course in heart physiology tells me that sarcomere length beyond a certain point [2.2 micrometers?] would be detrimental to the muscle force the heart can achieve, and would therefore negatively affect EDV or preload. This seems to answer the question I posed earlier about how much ventricular stretch is reasonable to assume in SV.
 
http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/55846097959/sky-froome-data-release-to-grappe-blatant-pr-scam

Sky froome data release to Grappe blatant PR scam

Certain people say silly things. When we are told that a rider is not able to put out 420 - 430 Watts in a time trial, that is false. Not so long ago, one of the riders with whom I was involved climbed Mont Faron at a power of 400 Watts for 20 minutes, and he is far from being Armstrong. Consequently, I am not astonished that Armstrong or others can produce 460 or 470 Watts on a mountain. It is not impossible."
 
May 25, 2011
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DW-
1) Yes, that's why I said "most rudimentary method". Even more precise methods only vary by a few beats/min though.
2) I would much rather have a higher MHR than a lower one. If I am racing my physiological clone EXCEPT for MHR, and my clone has a higher MHR than me, I will lose everytime...
3) Yes, when I used HR for training, I also noted that my MHR when fatigued WAS LOWER. However, when fatigued, there was no way I could produce the same power as when fresh.
His decrease of MHR of 20-25bpm would be super fatigued in my experience.
Just imagine what his power outputs would be if he was well rested.
Of course the only real way to know what his MHR is would be a bicycle ergometer test to exhaustion... and we'll never see that.

VR- if his MHR is only 169...well that's really abnormal for someone his age...20-25 beats lower than expected.

I still think he wasn't trying as hard as he could.

Way past me bedtime...good night!
 
taiwan said:
Ok.
FTP - CP20 = 60W
FTP - CP20 = ~8% (FTP)
=> ~8% (FTP) = 60W
=> FTP = 60W ÷ 8% = 750W

Discuss :cool:
You are assuming that:
- the 60W differential quoted is between FTP and his 20-minute mean maximal power
- His actual differential is 8%

We don't know if either of these assumptions is valid.

e.g. we don't know if 60-minute max power from the data provided represents his FTP, nor do we know if it contains a maximal 20-minute effort either, but I'd hazard a guess that the latter is more likely than the former.
 
Le breton said:
I remember how outraged I was when I read his LA apology in l'Equipe in those days.
I guess he was on LA's payroll as an advisor of some sort.

Anyway, Brailsford would never have shown the data to Vayer, He is much safer with Grappe who seems to always have had trouble with numbers.

Would you by any chance remember where Froome's power profile was shown?.
Either on this website or on a link I found on cyclingnews. I printed it but can't find it.

We have this :
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QlklucnWgJs/UBL0z8u4MpI/AAAAAAAAARA/5yfDjR-GNkY/s1600/froome_ITT_vuelta.jpg

We should all copy it before it disappears from the web.
I believe this must be the link I had found concerning Froome's power-duration curve (which I called power profile yesterday), published I believe soon after the Vuelta 2011.

http://teamsky.cyclingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/VueltaPowerDistFroome2011.png

I has disappeared from the web.

Maybe some web forensic expert can retrieve it before Brailsford intervenes further?

I have no doubt that Andy Coggan has that in his myriads of data files, but I don't count on him to reveal it to us, he would say it's privileged information he is not allowed to reveal :D
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Alex Simmons/RST said:
You are assuming that:
- the 60W differential quoted is between FTP and his 20-minute mean maximal power
- His actual differential is 8%

We don't know if either of these assumptions is valid.

e.g. we don't know if 60-minute max power from the data provided represents his FTP, nor do we know if it contains a maximal 20-minute effort either, but I'd hazard a guess that the latter is more likely than the former.
Thanks for the reply.

Why would his power during a 20 minute effort not be maximal? Why would his 60 min power be referred to at all if it was not representative of a maximal effort? What percentage difference would you expect in power between the 2 durations?

It makes no sense.

Also his power file for a 59' TT in 2011 is in the public domain, linked in this thread. Not saying it was, but it would be silly if it wasn't considered.
 
skimazk said:
No, that's what I posted higher up.

I found several images of cycling news for sept 2011 on the swayback archive but not what I'm looking for.

Also found one good perf in an ITT by Froome before 2011:
2nd TdF ITT 2008
1 Stefan Schumacher (Ger) Gerolsteiner 1.03.50 (49.817 km/h)
2 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Team CSC - Saxo Bank 0.21
3 Kim Kirchen (Lux) Team Columbia 1.01
4 Christian Vande Velde (USA) Team Garmin-Chipotle p/b H30 1.05
5 David Millar (GBr) Team Garmin-Chipotle p/b H30 1.37
6 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 1.55
7 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence - Lotto 2.05
8 Sebastian Lang (Ger) Gerolsteiner 2.19
9 Bernhard Kohl (Aut) Gerolsteiner 2.21
10 George Hincapie (USA) Team Columbia 2.28
11 Thomas Lövkvist (Swe) Team Columbia 2.29
12 Carlos Sastre Candil (Spa) Team CSC - Saxo Bank 2.34
13 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Team Garmin-Chipotle p/b H30 2.36
14 Danny Pate (USA) Team Garmin-Chipotle p/b H30 2.54
15 Jens Voigt (Ger) Team CSC - Saxo Bank 2.58
16 Christopher Froome (Ken) Barloworld 3.00
17 Amaël Moinard (Fra) Cofidis - Le Crédit par Téléphone 3.04
18 Kanstantsin Siutsou (Blr) Team Columbia 3.07
19 Sylvain Chavanel (Fra) Cofidis - Le Crédit par Téléphone 3.10
20 Joost Posthuma (Ned) Rabobank 3.13
 
taiwan said:
Thanks for the reply.

Why would his power during a 20 minute effort not be maximal? Why would his 60 min power be referred to at all if it was not representative of a maximal effort? What percentage difference would you expect in power between the 2 durations?

It makes no sense.

Also his power file for a 59' TT in 2011 is in the public domain, linked in this thread. Not saying it was, but it would be silly if it wasn't considered.
Do we know if the data actually contain 20-min maximal and 60-min maximal efforts?

All we know is that a comparison between the highest 20-min and 60-min power was made from the data supplied, but we don't know if either or both are actually maximal efforts over those durations. We'd need additional context to make sense of it.

e.g. if a race deciding climb takes 40-minutes, you'll get neither a rider's 20-min nor 60-min maximal power capability from that day's file. Hence the ratio between them may not actually be based on true maximal capability for both durations.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Alex Simmons/RST said:
Do we know if the data actually contain 20-min maximal and 60-min maximal efforts?

All we know is that a comparison between the highest 20-min and 60-min power was made from the data supplied, but we don't know if either or both are actually maximal efforts over those durations. We'd need additional context to make sense of it.

e.g. if a race deciding climb takes 40-minutes, you'll get neither a rider's 20-min nor 60-min maximal power capability from that day's file. Hence the ratio between them may not actually be based on true maximal capability for both durations.
...and what % difference would you expect between the two durations?

Still doesn't make much sense. Say Grappe is handed files from a 10 min climb a 30 and a 40 min one. He takes a wild guess as to what the 20 min and 60 min power are, gets an improbable difference, then issues a statement saying "yup, normal". :confused:
 
Le breton said:
2nd TdF ITT 2008
Yes, is there an SRM from anyone in the top20 that day which could be used for a ballpark figure on Froome?

Schumacher was a beast, probably as strong as Martin today. Three minutes down on him is no disgrace.

I've always found Moinard's result to be strange.
 
Jul 8, 2009
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Le breton said:
No, that's what I posted higher up.

I found several images of cycling news for sept 2011 on the swayback archive but not what I'm looking for.

Also found one good perf in an ITT by Froome before 2011:
2nd TdF ITT 2008
1 Stefan Schumacher (Ger) Gerolsteiner 1.03.50 (49.817 km/h)
2 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Team CSC - Saxo Bank 0.21
3 Kim Kirchen (Lux) Team Columbia 1.01
4 Christian Vande Velde (USA) Team Garmin-Chipotle p/b H30 1.05
5 David Millar (GBr) Team Garmin-Chipotle p/b H30 1.37
6 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 1.55
7 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence - Lotto 2.05
8 Sebastian Lang (Ger) Gerolsteiner 2.19
9 Bernhard Kohl (Aut) Gerolsteiner 2.21
10 George Hincapie (USA) Team Columbia 2.28
11 Thomas Lövkvist (Swe) Team Columbia 2.29
12 Carlos Sastre Candil (Spa) Team CSC - Saxo Bank 2.34
13 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Team Garmin-Chipotle p/b H30 2.36
14 Danny Pate (USA) Team Garmin-Chipotle p/b H30 2.54
15 Jens Voigt (Ger) Team CSC - Saxo Bank 2.58
16 Christopher Froome (Ken) Barloworld 3.00
17 Amaël Moinard (Fra) Cofidis - Le Crédit par Téléphone 3.04
18 Kanstantsin Siutsou (Blr) Team Columbia 3.07
19 Sylvain Chavanel (Fra) Cofidis - Le Crédit par Téléphone 3.10
20 Joost Posthuma (Ned) Rabobank 3.13
And by 2010 Commonwealth, he is further behind winner David Millar, coming in 5th @ 2:20:

2010 Commonwealth Games TT
1 David Millar (Scotland) 0:47:19 *
2 Alex Dowsett (England) 0:00:55 *
3 Luke Durbridge (Australia) 0:01:01 *
4 Michael Hutchinson (Northern Ireland) 0:02:14 *
5 Christopher Froome (England) 0:02:20 *
 

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