Frédéric Grappe analysis of Froome data

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Mar 4, 2010
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Quit slinging mud at Grappe, you dolts! He's merely stating facts. That's it! He's not adding; "therefore, I conclude The Dawg is squeaky clean", he's just stating facts. There is no endorsement - just f-in facts!
 
May 25, 2011
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What strikes me as interesting on the power profile is the average and max heart rates. Seems to me that he wasn't trying very hard.. I mean a Max HR of 169... seems like the max HR of a 28 year old should be at least 190! Oh and I'd expect the Average HR to 169...
OOPS! I forgot... that parasite weakenen his cardiac muscles...
 
Mar 18, 2009
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131313 said:
Well, according to Hunter Allen, his FTP is now 10% higher than that.
1. In W/kg, not W.

2. You're assuming that Froome was able to TT at 100% of his FTP during the 2nd or 3rd week (whichever it was) of a GT. Isn't that stance contrary to the widespread belief that clean riders will always exhibit a decline in power throught the race due to fatigue?

ETA: It should also be noted that although Froome averaged "only" 405 W, the FTP entered into the software must have been 420-425 W (since the IF was 0.96). At 68 kg, that's 6.2 W/kg...which is w/in 5% of the 6.5 W/kg value Hunter stated as the new "top rung" (although in fact that rung isn't new this year).
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Ruby60 said:
What strikes me as interesting on the power profile is the average and max heart rates. Seems to me that he wasn't trying very hard.. I mean a Max HR of 169.
Fatigue suppresses both submaximal and maximal heart rates.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Grappe said:
It shows, for example, a significant and normal power reduction of 60 watts (0.88 w/kg) between twenty and sixty minutes efforts.
It's quite obvious that Grappe has not seen anything close to 6.5 W/kg for 1h because that would make his 20 min power impossibly high when you add the 60 watts (7.38 W/kg).
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Ferminal said:
Froome has weighed 68kg every day for 2 years...
I thought Grappe only analyzed 18 days' worth of data?

In any case, let's assume that he weighs the same now as he did for the Vuelta TT...that still means his absolute power would only have to have increased by 5% to reach 6.5 W/kg @FTP, not the 10% claimed by 131313 (or the 20% claimed by others).
 
Jul 8, 2009
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acoggan said:
Fatigue suppresses both submaximal and maximal heart rates.
I have had times when I could barely get my heart rate to 150-155 in training but producing 410-420W from what looks like about 140-142 bpm average in the first 20 min looks weird, and that is not meant to castigate the nature of the data. His cardiac output seems substantially reduced under such conditions. Days I have ridden with a heart rate that would not rise out of the 150's were not good ones.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Tyler'sTwin said:
It's quite obvious that Grappe has not seen anything close to 6.5 W/kg for 1h because that would make his 20 min power impossibly high when you add the 60 watts (7.38 W/kg).
For the 3rd time: you can't take that delta of 60 W at face value, because it is a model-derived value based on an overly-simplistic mathematical description of the power-duration relationship that is statistically biased. IOW, the true decrement has been overestimated.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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vrusimov said:
I have had times when I could barely get my heart rate to 150-155 in training but producing 410-420W from what looks like about 140-142 bpm average in the first 20 min looks weird, and that is not meant to castigate the nature of the data. His cardiac output seems substantially reduced under such conditions. Days I have ridden with a heart rate that would not rise out of the 150's were not good ones.
I've had days (TTs) like that as well, yet my power has been unimpaired. That doesn't necessarily mean that cardiac output is reduced, however, since SV may very well increase to compensate.
 
May 25, 2011
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AC - Granted that there is some fatigue but this was "only" stage 10. I don't know what the previous days were like.. maybe even a rest day,
If I use the most rudimentary formula from determing a max heart rate (220-age), I get a max HR of 192. Now I'd bet that his actual Max HR is much higher, after all, he is an endurance trained athlete...200bpm?
So he decreased his max HR by 12-15% after just 10 days?
What would you think his max HR would be after 20 days?
All hypothetical of course.


BTW, I have your power training books...thank you!
 
Jun 25, 2013
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How should Grappe's opinion on Armstrong and Froome be treated the same?

It seems to me that Grappe in the first instance on Armstrong is commenting on an allegation rather than a known fact or set of data as in the case of what Sky handed him when the article states:

He then commented on the accusations that have been made against Lance Armstrong regarding 'impossible' power outputs. "Certain people say silly things. When we are told that a rider is not able to put out 420 - 430 Watts in a time trial, that is false. Not so long ago, one of the riders with whom I was involved climbed Mont Faron at a power of 400 Watts for 20 minutes, and he is far from being Armstrong. Consequently, I am not astonished that Armstrong or others can produce 460 or 470 Watts on a mountain. It is not impossible."

In addition, a cadence of 80-90 rpm to produce this power on climbs is also not impossible, according to Grappe. "It is the result of many days of hard work. With what has happened in the past 10 years, many riders are using bigger gear ratios. Some have lost the suppleness, i.e. they are not able to utilise higher pedalling frequencies...a high pedalling frequency makes it possible to relieve the muscles," said Grappe who expressed his annoyance of people's poor analysis of the data
 
May 25, 2011
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So SV increases? How, by increasing HR? Or are you saying the HR slows allowing the Atria and Ventricles to fill more completely?


Sorry to get somewhat off topic...OOPS!
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Ruby60 said:
So SV increases? How, by increasing HR? Or are you saying the HR slows allowing the Atria and Ventricles to fill more completely?
The latter would be a reasonable hypothesis.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Ruby60 said:
AC - Granted that there is some fatigue but this was "only" stage 10. I don't know what the previous days were like.. maybe even a rest day,
If I use the most rudimentary formula from determing a max heart rate (220-age), I get a max HR of 192. Now I'd bet that his actual Max HR is much higher, after all, he is an endurance trained athlete...200bpm?
1. Elite endurance athletes are not characterized by exceptionally high maximal heart rates.

2. Within a given individual, endurance exercise training tends to reduce maximal heart rate.

Ruby60 said:
So he decreased his max HR by 12-15% after just 10 days?
What would you think his max HR would be after 20 days?
All hypothetical of course.
No idea, really...just pointing out that you have to keep fatigue in mind.
 
Sep 9, 2009
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The conversation has already been steered the way Sky wants it to be steered. USA Today(a fish-wrap if ever there was one) printed the following:

Sky had previously declined to release the data to the press. According to Grappe, Froome's data was consistent from the 2011 season through 2013. Often times, doping will create a spike in a rider's performance. But Grappe said in Thursday's l'Equipe report that Froome's consistent power did not raise red flags.

Froome praised Brailsford for releasing the data. "I'm happy to hear their findings and to hear their take on it," Froome said. "Basically backing us up to say these performances are very good strong, clean performances."
The issue is settled, folks!
 
Oct 22, 2009
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acoggan said:
I've had days (TTs) like that as well, yet my power has been unimpaired. That doesn't necessarily mean that cardiac output is reduced, however, since SV may very well increase to compensate.
This is not the first time we have seen Froome's very low exertional heart rates. He has posted this before. It does seem very very low. Of course, this does not prove or disprove doping. It is just very......interesting.

Someone should try to do an estimations on his SV based on power output, and heart rate. I think we know enough to give a reasonable estimate. He must have incredible ventricular chamber size, or incredible myocardial contractility.

Can I have a cardiac echo or better yet an exercise MUGA scan?

Not implying doping or anything. I just cant explain such a low heart rate at very high workloads unless a) very very high SV, or b) somehow his muscles are extracting way more oxygen than anyone else. c) He is not trying very hard.
 
acoggan said:
I thought Grappe only analyzed 18 days' worth of data?
So Hunter Allen who claims the 10% increase in W/kg is actually based on him weighing 5kg heavier in the first point even though he has always raced at exactly the same weight? Very misleading if that is the case.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Ferminal said:
So Hunter Allen who claims the 10% increase in W/kg is actually based on him weighing 5kg heavier in the first point even though he has always raced at exactly the same weight? Very misleading if that is the case.
??

Hunter hasn't claimed any increase, He has only estimated Froome's current FTP as 440-460 W.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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momotaro said:
This is not the first time we have seen Froome's very low exertional heart rates. He has posted this before. It does seem very very low. Of course, this does not prove or disprove doping. It is just very......interesting.

Someone should try to do an estimations on his SV based on power output, and heart rate. I think we know enough to give a reasonable estimate. He must have incredible ventricular chamber size, or incredible myocardial contractility.

Can I have a cardiac echo or better yet an exercise MUGA scan?

Not implying doping or anything. I just cant explain such a low heart rate at very high workloads unless a) very very high SV, or b) somehow his muscles are extracting way more oxygen than anyone else. c) He is not trying very hard.
Given that even untrained individuals are capable of extracting almost all of the O2 delivered to exercising muscle, b) seems quite unlikely. So, it's either a), or he is exceptionally efficient (or some combination thereof).
 
Jul 8, 2009
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acoggan said:
I've had days (TTs) like that as well, yet my power has been unimpaired. That doesn't necessarily mean that cardiac output is reduced, however, since SV may very well increase to compensate.
Can the right, and principally the left ventricle really stretch so much? When you think about it, unless something similar happens, power reduction following stroke volume vs. heart rate must correlate with ejection fraction. I can imagine increasing fatigue but stroke volume increasing to compensate, causing a super-compensation following a rest period from a grand tour? Would that be right?
 
Jun 18, 2009
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acoggan said:
1. In W/kg, not W.

2. You're assuming that Froome was able to TT at 100% of his FTP during the 2nd or 3rd week (whichever it was) of a GT. Isn't that stance contrary to the widespread belief that clean riders will always exhibit a decline in power throught the race due to fatigue?

ETA: It should also be noted that although Froome averaged "only" 405 W, the FTP entered into the software must have been 420-425 W (since the IF was 0.96). At 68 kg, that's 6.2 W/kg...which is w/in 5% of the 6.5 W/kg value Hunter stated as the new "top rung" (although in fact that rung isn't new this year).
1) I thought Froome's weight hadn't changed in 2 years?

2) the TT was 10 days into the Vuelta. And I thought that Froome didn't show that decline according to the guy who just looked at his power data?

you are correct though, the FTP entered into the software definitely shows a higher number than 405. Without Sky releasing actual data, I can only look at what he did though, not what they say he can do.
 

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