French is accusing British cyclist Cheating

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May 18, 2011
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To summarise. Some Brits are pleased "their" team has won loads of medals. Others (including some French people) are not? :)
 
Jul 25, 2010
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This forum is funny. I love how when a British person wins or does well it's either cheating or doping , yada yada yada

But when an American wins or an Italian or Spanish or German or Kazah, it's because they're brilliant and honest sportsperson, train hard and they would never resort to cheating or doping.


:rolleyes:
 
Apr 23, 2009
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Well that's not entirely fair, Izzy, you've got all sorts of people here finding an outlet for their prejudices, however deeply sublimated they may be, and who are you to deny them that????
 
Izzy eviel said:
This forum is funny. I love how when a British person wins or does well it's either cheating or doping , yada yada yada

But when an American wins or an Italian or Spanish or German or Kazah, it's because they're brilliant and honest sportsperson, train hard and they would never resort to cheating or doping.

:rolleyes:
The above is what is funny. It is obvious that you and your kind have not spent any time reading the forum. You read a thread or two that does not match your world view, don't bother reading anything else, then just make stuff up about what the forum is like. Admit it, dude. You have absolutely no clue about how the forum views Americans, Kazakhs, Spanish, or anything else. In fact this goes beyond being clueless. When someone manufactures stuff like this out of whole cloth it can only be called lying. You are a liar.
 
Mr Pumpy said:
Well that's not entirely fair, Izzy, you've got all sorts of people here finding an outlet for their prejudices, however deeply sublimated they may be, and who are you to deny them that????
You are doing it wrong. If you are going to spend the day trolling then it is best to wait for a day where there are more than a few people occasionally checking the group.
 
Jun 12, 2010
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JimmyFingers said:
It says much for the French that they level this sort of innuendo considering their lead sprinter has 'served' a ban for missing 3 tests. As someone more vociferous than me asserted here, 3 missed tests equals someone doping. Correct me if I'm wrong.

As for French preparation, isn't it true the French have no World standard indoor velodromes? While we have 4. Maybe there are your magic wheels, instead of training on an outdoor track like the French.

While I respect your experience, I do think that doping levels in the pro-peloton are a good way south of what is generally opinionated here, but a good way north of what joe public think.

At best it is the pot calling the kettle black
Might I suggest you spend a few days researching ( cus that's how long it will take to get even a rudimentary understanding ) the effects of modern doping practices, detection rates , % gains, equipment gains V athletic gains, history on the subject and how the bulk of doping is outside of competition.
That Sky @ BC are coming under a great deal of scrutiny should come as no surprise as there currently dominating on road and track. This scrutiny does NOT however mean peeps think those close behind are therefore clean but rather that the suspicion is there regimen is proving the "best".
IMHO doping is as widespread as ever but just not as excessive as the wild west period of Riis, Pantani and Armstrong.
The EPO deaths were not good PR..the bio passport was therefore implemented to reduce the excess. A sceptic like myself views it as an aid to doping safely not a deterrent.
.
 
Izzy eviel said:
This forum is funny. I love how when a British person wins or does well it's either cheating or doping , yada yada yada

But when an American wins or an Italian or Spanish or German or Kazah, it's because they're brilliant and honest sportsperson, train hard and they would never resort to cheating or doping.


:rolleyes:
The only reason the Astana thread is not as popular as the British ones is because there is no army of Iglynskyi fans lining up to claim that Astanas sudden improvement was down to training harder than everyone else (despite the fact that its impossible for a team without recovery drugs to train harder than a team that uses them).

Everyone accepted that there was a lot of suspicion around Astanas spring form through to Contador character witness Paolo Tiralongo, flying away from Schleck Basso and Scarponi (see what i did there ;)) on the first giro climb.

This all of course despite the fact that Maxim Iglynskyi was always a good classics rider, while Wiggins until he met lance a few years ago, held the lofty dream of finishing a tdf mountain stage inside the top 120.
 
Jul 29, 2012
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Re: Magic Wheels

Putting aside the requirement that teams must be using commercially available product, why would the hypothetical 'magic wheels' be illegal anyway?

An inertial storage device is just that. Any momentum gained is counterbalanced against the energy already expended by the rider to create the stored inertial energy. Or to put it another way, if you want heaps of inertia then try using a really heavy bike! Unless of course the device could be 'wound up' pre-race.

Just wondering if anybody could put me right on this.

re. GB cheating. Wasn't Chris Boardman widely accused of cheating because of his wheels?
 
Jul 14, 2012
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BroDeal said:
The above is what is funny. It is obvious that you and your kind have not spent any time reading the forum. You read a thread or two that does not match your world view, don't bother reading anything else, then just make stuff up about what the forum is like. Admit it, dude. You have absolutely no clue about how the forum views Americans, Kazakhs, Spanish, or anything else. In fact this goes beyond being clueless. When someone manufactures stuff like this out of whole cloth it can only be called lying. You are a liar.
As some measure of defense, if you have only been on the forum a few months (amusingly July for myself) it is very easy to see a lot of stuff that can be perceived as being 'anti-British'.

And that included myself, however. After trawling through the depths of the clinic I have come to a far more balanced view and offence is no longer taken. The false perception has far more to do with the success enjoyed by Team DB... sorry GB, dammit Sky.

I think the only real gripe I would have with the clinic is, 'what is it actually achieving other than discussion?'

Asides from providing me with amusement at easily offended folk.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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Some of that I agree with, some not. I have no objection to scrutiny, none whatsoever, and I wouldn't even raise an eyebrow if a team wide doping programme was in place at Sky, such is my cynicism of the pro side of the sport. Christ, I can't even bring myself to cheer them on, such is my disgust of the Murdochs.

The difficulty with this forum is that posters with a balanced informed view are in the absolute minority, and as is usual on fora, the biggest posters are mostly those with the least to say of any value. What we have seen here is a tiny amount of useful discussion explaining suspicions, swamped by a sea of pointless snide remarks borne out of prejudice. Loads of frankly Pythonesque stuff about British superiority complex etc (have these posters even been to the UK and seen what a bunch of obese burger-munching criminal drones most of the population have become?) Surprise at recent British success in sport should not be centred around suspicions of doping but should be around incredulity that any Brits could even manage to squeeze themselves out through their door frames to go and do some training.
 
Mr Pumpy said:
Funnily enough, French team’s technical director, Isabelle Gautheron, said of the incident that “you have to make the most of the rules. You have to play with them in a competition and no one should complain about that,”

So that's a big STFU from the team that were 'cheated' by the British ;)
She could hardly take any other stance, given that Michael Bougain climbed off after just 5kms of the road race, to go ride the keirin.

As for Germany and Forsterman. He didn't even bother to turn up for the mountain bike race, since he'd already finished his track program.
No medal to defend from a DQF, I suppose.

Certainly intentional and neither nation played fair, but that's as far as it goes.
Same for GB team sprint, despite what others wish to believe.
 
Jun 29, 2009
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LugHugger said:
[/B]
Myth. Supplying and organising doping are jailable offences, use of ped's alone is not.

oh yes, athletes can well be sent to prison in france just for being in possession of doping products:

the law splits this into the following 2 laws:

http://legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexteArticle.do;jsessionid=21630E96AEEBE7D545E87CF86F40BE5D.tpdjo03v_1?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000026052520&idArticle=LEGIARTI000026053414&dateTexte=20120623&categorieLien=cid#LEGIARTI000026053414

if you click on the hyperlink within the above article of law (i.e. where it says "paragraph 1 of article L232-26 of the code du sport") you get re-directed to the 2nd one, which lays out the penal sanctions:

http://legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do;jsessionid=21630E96AEEBE7D545E87CF86F40BE5D.tpdjo03v_1?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006071318&idArticle=LEGIARTI000006547644&dateTexte=&categorieLien=cid

Ricardo Ricco comes to mind (suspended prison term for his use of erythropoetin CERA at the tour de france, handed out by a french court)

and it's the same legal situation in austria (with paragraph 147 of the Strafgesetzbuch). in fact i would expect any country with an anti-doping law to have provisions for a prison sentence for athletes caught red-handed
 
May 26, 2010
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piemonster said:
As some measure of defense, if you have only been on the forum a few months (amusingly July for myself) it is very easy to see a lot of stuff that can be perceived as being 'anti-British'.

And that included myself, however. After trawling through the depths of the clinic I have come to a far more balanced view and offence is no longer taken. The false perception has far more to do with the success enjoyed by Team DB... sorry GB, dammit Sky.

I think the only real gripe I would have with the clinic is, 'what is it actually achieving other than discussion?' Asides from providing me with amusement at easily offended folk.
Since when did anything discussed on t'internet achieve anything.

I would suggest it is spreading the doping discussion at the very least and that the '12 good apostles' that post in this 'little echo chamber' are reaching out to more than cycling.

The Clinic does provide an archive albeit a very haphazard and labourious one to the in and outs of sports doping, in particular cycling
 
Jul 19, 2009
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LugHugger said:
[/B]
Myth. Supplying and organising doping are jailable offences, use of ped's alone is not.
Being caught for doping on french soil means that athlete would have to explain how he did it, where he bought his PED, how did he learn to dope, his doping regim ... If he cannot do so or try to hide something, he is suspected as part of a doping ring.

So, yes french athlete can dope without jail offence for themself, but their providers or helpers are under a serious threat. Maybe enough to have less helpers and suppliers than elsewhere.

BTW, some riders and athletes have already be jailed while under investigation like Ricco.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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BTW, IOC wanted anti-doping laws for London.

It seems that there were none of them. Why?

Most of athletes have dedicated a part of their life to sport, being spoiled by a doper is as bad as being robbed.
 
May 19, 2010
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Mellow Velo said:
She could hardly take any other stance, given that Michael Bougain climbed off after just 5kms of the road race, to go ride the keirin.

As for Germany and Forsterman. He didn't even bother to turn up for the mountain bike race, since he'd already finished his track program.
No medal to defend from a DQF, I suppose.

Certainly intentional and neither nation played fair, but that's as far as it goes.
Same for GB team sprint, despite what others wish to believe.
If you fall in the team sprint the other team on the track with you will also have to restart.

Bougain took the place of a French road cyclist. Förstemann took the place of a German MTB'er. The rules allowing this are idiotic. I don't know which wonderful organisation it is that has made that rule, maybe it is something UCI and IOC have cooked up together?

The rule that you get to restart if you crash on the team sprint should be removed. It is your own or your teammates fault if you crash. The team sprint isn't like the elimination race or the points race where other riders actions easily can take you out. When riders are speculating in falling the rule must be changed. If you fall in other sports with tight racing, like the 1500 m. track running final, 4x400 m. relay track running or short track speed skating, you are out. They don't restart the race for you. If it is some other person is to blame he will be disqualified, but you do not get to start over.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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dadane said:
Re: Magic Wheels
...that teams must be using commercially available product...
O yeah.

Agree that you could only use heavier or lighter wheels, with the trade off being between energy storage and ease of acceleration. It's an interesing question, what would be optimal for what event, because although you don't get any free energy the weight of the wheels could be advantageous in some scenarios and not in others. Thinking about all the factors in play: rider power, rider endurance, gearing, drag, tactics, gravitational potential energy, bike/wheel inertia...:confused:

Actually heavy wheels might be advantageous even in sprint events because you could get more out of the banking. But tbh I know nothing about track riding.

edit: no that's BS. If the weight was in the wheels rather than the bike, that would just slow your aceleration down th banking.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Darryl Webster said:
Might I suggest you spend a few days researching ( cus that's how long it will take to get even a rudimentary understanding ) the effects of modern doping practices, detection rates , % gains, equipment gains V athletic gains, history on the subject and how the bulk of doping is outside of competition.
That Sky @ BC are coming under a great deal of scrutiny should come as no surprise as there currently dominating on road and track. This scrutiny does NOT however mean peeps think those close behind are therefore clean but rather that the suspicion is there regimen is proving the "best".
IMHO doping is as widespread as ever but just not as excessive as the wild west period of Riis, Pantani and Armstrong.
The EPO deaths were not good PR..the bio passport was therefore implemented to reduce the excess. A sceptic like myself views it as an aid to doping safely not a deterrent.
.
While I acknowledge your superior understanding of doping practises I am sceptical in turn as to how widespread it is these days, and I wary of falling into the trap of simply condemning successful or improved athletes as dopers. there is a danger of denigrating clean athletes success and all the sacrifice and work they put it into it.

And there has been discussion of an anti-British sentiment here in the clinic. While there is claim of impartial and objective scrutiny of all athletes, there has been a lot of threads about British riders and athletes recently. Yes I appreciate that is down to their recent success, but too often those threads have degenerated into attacks on our culture and national character (witness the 'why I will Never Support a British Team' thread, using stereotypes and ignorant assumption to sneer at us. And our athletes are clearly getting more focus than others, for example Ed Clancy, a bronze medalist in the Omnium over the guy that won it, who in the points raced crashed and then managed to take a lap all on his own. I don't see his power outputs being discussed.
 
Jun 12, 2010
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JimmyFingers said:
While I acknowledge your superior understanding of doping practises I am sceptical in turn as to how widespread it is these days, and I wary of falling into the trap of simply condemning successful or improved athletes as dopers. there is a danger of denigrating clean athletes success and all the sacrifice and work they put it into it.

And there has been discussion of an anti-British sentiment here in the clinic. While there is claim of impartial and objective scrutiny of all athletes, there has been a lot of threads about British riders and athletes recently. Yes I appreciate that is down to their recent success, but too often those threads have degenerated into attacks on our culture and national character (witness the 'why I will Never Support a British Team' thread, using stereotypes and ignorant assumption to sneer at us. And our athletes are clearly getting more focus than others, for example Ed Clancy, a bronze medalist in the Omnium over the guy that won it, who in the points raced crashed and then managed to take a lap all on his own. I don't see his power outputs being discussed.
For me, as a Brit, there is no " us" in this. The issue of doping in elite sports crosses all nationalities and in no way do those nationalities define any differences in attitude. Be it Brits, French, German,American or any other nation the tendency is for some people to jump to defend there athletes and use the national culture or character card. A totally hollow defense with zero merit. To the extent that fellow Brits have used this card they have brought upon themselves a waive of criticism .
It is NOT a issue of nationality in any way. It is simply an issue of credibility and given the history in elite sport that has shown, time an time again, whenever any team , in any athletic sport that domination has, so often ,been shown to be the product of elicit practice. For Brits to express dismay at the criticism rather than fully address the question marks over performances with FULL transparency only pours fuel on the fire.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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Can you find any evidence of any British posters claiming the moral superiority that has been alleged? I think you might find the egg came before the chicken in this case.

However you want to spin it, much of the so-called scrutiny of British teams or athletes that has taken place here is bad-faith bullsh1t motivated by petty nationalistic rivalry. Go back and have a read of some of those threads. It is no reason that British readers take issue, much of what was posted wasnt an attack on athletes but an attack on the British.

It's little surprise that you'd find this on an English speaking Forum of Australian origins. When you have the Head of Australian Olympic Committee making snide remarks about the hygiene of British people, I guess that sets the tone for the rest of that nation. The Head of the Australian Olympic Committee for Christs sake!. I can't think of any other nation where somebody in that position making remarks as crass as those could keep his job.

I'm sure that will get a load of Aussies riled, so as a placatory gesture I'll leave you with an image that encapsulates 2012 Olympics....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19165636

 
Jun 12, 2010
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No doubt some do take nationalistic positions Pumpy. And there wrong. But your showing your guilt in doing so with your last post.
Stay focused on the performance issues not the nationality.
Seems few Brits...and let's not forget I'm a Brit here..are prepared to do this.

Perhaps that's mostly because few casual fans want to put the work into truly researching the subject?...it can be tedious and boring but when peeps don't then there really have very little supporting argument other than faith.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Darryl Webster said:
For me, as a Brit, there is no " us" in this. The issue of doping in elite sports crosses all nationalities and in no way do those nationalities define any differences in attitude. Be it Brits, French, German,American or any other nation the tendency is for some people to jump to defend there athletes and use the national culture or character card. A totally hollow defense with zero merit. To the extent that fellow Brits have used this card they have brought upon themselves a waive of criticism .
It is NOT a issue of nationality in any way. It is simply an issue of credibility and given the history in elite sport that has shown, time an time again, whenever any team , in any athletic sport that domination has, so often ,been shown to be the product of elicit practice. For Brits to express dismay at the criticism rather than fully address the question marks over performances with FULL transparency only pours fuel on the fire.
There are people that offer objective scrutiny and then there the ones who just want to put the boot in, and the clinic certainly has plenty of those. I agree there is no moral superiority that can be claimed for British athletes, but that doesn't justify the way they have been singled out, over the Olympics and of course the Tour. It certainly doesn't justify some of the prejudical and borderline xenophobic remarks I have read frequently here.

Anyway we'll agree to disagree. I take on board your point that history teaches us much about sports domination, what worries me is the attitude that that domination can never be achieved clean. I guess at the moment my glass is half-full. That said I have learnt a lot reading here, just dislike some of the baiting and bullying that goes on
 
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